Orhan Pamuk:Hero or Traitor

[Hovik]

Rudo and I are both reading Pamuks latest book "Snow" is anyone else reading it? Honestly I cannot put it down, it's fantastic, and really does a nice job of describing societal issues in present day Kars...
I just got "My name is Red" a few weeks ago and plan to read it next. I'll continue to buy Pamuks books, and encourage others to do so, especially Armenians - we owe that to him for the sacrifice he's made (ie. standing by his beliefs and not giving up when facing the title wave of opposition he has). Also, encourage your local bookstores and Armenian bookstores / online-booksellers to carry Pamuks books as well... a few are www.narek.com, www.abrilbooks.com

[elendil]

What I meant..

Yes, and if people in Turkey think that he's a coward or not trust worthy ... His books wouldn't be the #1 best seller in Turkey ...
Maybe he didn't want to do the talk show because he was busy doing another talk show, in Paris, Germany, Holland, Sweden ... or anywhere else on earth ... After all, he is famous on an International level, and his books have been transelated into 30 languages !!!!

If Turks have a little bit of brain, they'll know that a man like that should be treated like a national treasure ... not to be convicted for speaking out his opinion !!!

Hellooo ... Human Rightsss

It seems I could not make my point to you Maral, Rudo. I did not say he can not write fine books right? Neither did I say he is not an international writer. What did I say? I said if you will not explain your case to the people you mean to convince, then why are you making such a statement? I am sure he was invited to Holland, Sweden, Paris (especially Paris). But if it is Turkish people you want to convince, how do these talk-shows in foreign countries help? If he is not a opportunistic guy, then he is an idiot for not foreseeing very simple dynamics of Turkey about such a sensitive issue. If he is not explaining his case to people of Turkey out of despise, he is an arrogant bastard looking down to people. At all possibilities the actions he has taken in a year classifies him ( for me ofcourse ) an idiot. As to selling books in Turkey, this man sold these books looong before his claim of Armenian issue. Besides he simply writes good thus it is expected of his books to sell. Him being a good writer and his stance about Armenian issue is irrevelant I think. I hope I could explain...

As to being national treasure, Europe can have him. Personally, I think we can do without him

[Reincarnated Am]

The truth is, Genocide was committed against my people and you guys are trying to sugar coat it, by denying it or trying to make it as if it was our fault or it was us who massacred Turks. Only God knows what kind of crimes or butcheries Turks commit against my people. What we know or was published is only a fraction to what really happened, because of the survivors were much less then the death and most of them were orphan kids so they don’t really remember the crimes. So whatever truth is been told buy us is only 10% of the crimes that was committed. So stop arguing if it was a cave or it was a chamber

[imported_RUDO]

Rudo and I are both reading Pamuks latest book "Snow" is anyone else reading it? Honestly I cannot put it down, it's fantastic, and really does a nice job of describing societal issues in present day Kars...
I just got "My name is Red" a few weeks ago and plan to read it next. I'll continue to buy Pamuks books, and encourage others to do so, especially Armenians - we owe that to him for the sacrifice he's made (ie. standing by his beliefs and not giving up when facing the title wave of opposition he has). Also, encourage your local bookstores and Armenian bookstores / online-booksellers to carry Pamuks books as well... a few are www.narek.com, www.abrilbooks.com

Yes,Hovik.I am fascinated by his book.And I also encourage my friends to read his books.But you know people in Turkey are usually reluctant to read his books after discussions.But I am struggling for it.
Good Luck Hovik jan and also to me

[Kharpert]

elendil, Orhan Pamuk's books are fiction. Does every mention of the Armenian Genocide in a novel have to bring forth volumes and volumes of evidence? Even if Orham Pamuk was writing a history textbook, isn't it his right to mention the Armenian Genocide as a fact without taking on the responsibility of drowning the readers in extra information and counter-arguments to denialism? There are other sources and mediums of literature devoted to such a task, and fiction novels are not one of them.

=====================================

MUZO, welcome to the forums. On these forums, we don't appreciate denialism, so before you begin posting we'd first like you to read this website and this thread. If you have any questions or challenges to the information on these websites, please start a new thread and we'll answer you.

[maral_m79]

According to you Armenians were Angel of Mercy, Turks were images of the evil on the world. I cannot accept this. You need self-criticism. There were some problems with Armenians, this is reality. Your gangs are also responsible for Armenian Genocide.

When you start talking about what your gangs did, we'll have a honest discussion. Or pull your claws back.

So ... Here we go, professional denial.

Let's see, SHOW US SOME EVIDENCE TO WHAT YOU ARE CLAIMING !!!!
Or all you have is those stories you hear from the professional deniers

You are sayin, that he wasn't being honest, so let's see, prove it to us ... How honest you are !!!

[maral_m79]

I am not surprised with your answer.

There is difference between Gas Chamber and Cave. And, there is a secret aim under these words (Gas Chamber). After rising them a cheat will appear and catch eyes. The cheat of trying to find similarities between Armenian Genocide and Jewish Genocide. No doubt, to put the AG in the same category with JG will certainly be useful for some.

Gas Chamber indicates a genocide as exactly planned, but we cannot see the same meaning when taking the Cave into the consideration. You probably thought that I didn’t know the use of caves in Armenian Genocide.

When one talks about a Gas Chamber, it is inevitable to prove it. There is no choice other than that. (Delikanlı ol canımı ye). (I cannot translate these words into the English, but the meaning is like: be honest, take my heart).

By the way, isn’t it interesting?, whatever the westerners say about AG is true, but whatever Turks say about it is wrong, denial or lie. I is interesting really.

As you claim you know about the "suffocation caves" ... I have nothing more to add .... you're just trying to play technicality games ... I advice you to go play them somewhere else coz they won't do you any good here !!!!

And by the way, the so-called Turkish Historian Yusef Halaguglu (or whatever) admitted the existance of those caves, and the Armenian bones found in them ... and he explained those caves as "places deviced to clean the Armenians from hair lice .... A very compelling argument as you might notice too specially when it comes from a supposedly Prof. and Historian and the director of Historical Institute (or whatever) ....
If those are your Profs. no wonder you spend this much money trying to buy western writers ...

[maral_m79]

ok ı thınk Armenians and Turks are brother.I know that many people died during the ww1.But Armenians killed Turks and Turks had to do somethıng.I know there isn't any logical reason to kil anyone but ıt was result of war.You know there are many Armenians living in Turkey now but they aren't hurt by Turks now.I can understand your paın but as ı said both side lost many people during the war.I thınk Russia and France is responsible for that.

Ok MUZO ...
You seem to be a nice guy, yes this forum is democratic ... So in order not to repeat what we were all talking about for long time now... I ask you please to :

1) Read the FAQ and the "thread" that kharpert recommened to you.
2) Prepare your evidences (to support your argument)...

And we'll be glad to discuss any issue with you

OK ??

And To ALL Deniers in this forum :
Please prepare your evidences and sources, and then start to tell us those stories of yours ... Ok ??

I guess that's FAIR enough !!!

[phantom]

This is irrelevant:
When was the last time that you were in Turkey? I mean at what age did you leave? Did you have same kind of feelings when you were living in Istanbul?
Did you feel discriminated or feel the otherness while you were living in Istanbul? Does your mother and father or siblings(if you have any) feel the same or close to how you feel in general about Turks and Armenian relations?
May be it sounds meaningless but I am wondering if as the generations pass people feel more distanced or not( I mean those who live outside Turkey).


There was a series of series published in Radikal news paper about being Armenian in Turkey and in general Armenians of Turkey. Did you read it?

I left Turkey when I was a child, and I've visited once when I was 18. But I grew up in L.A. with lots of Turkish and Armenian families within our family's close group of friends. My mother's boss for many years was a Turkish family who were very close to my parents. The lady of the family, who was the brains behind the operation, died a number of years ago from cancer and my mom was devastated for a long time. My parents don't really feel as I do, but they know what happened to our people. They just choose to not think about it.

My father lives in Istanbul, and has a small business there. A few years ago, one of the more racist Turkish papers published an article about him full of anti-Armenian lies. The article said that he was selling American products in Turkey and sending the money back to Armenian-American lobbies in the U.S. My father wouldn't know an Armenian-American lobby if one fell on his head. The accusation severely hurt his business for about a year until people forgot about it. When it came out, I begged my father to let me file a lawsuit against the paper for defamation in the U.S., since the paper is distributed here as well. He refused, saying that it would make things much worse for him if he made a big stink out of it. He was right, eventually people forgot about it, and he has been able to go about his business quietly. But this example illustrates the anti-Armenian propoganda that permeates life in Turkey. Armenians are only able to survive and prosper, because they act like my dad; they let it go, and sweep it under the rug. Again, we are meek people, particularly the Istanbul Armenians. If we weren't meek but complained against every abuse against us in Turkey, there wouldn't be an Armenian left in Turkey, we would all be finished by now. You don't know these inside stories, because we rarely ever make a stink about them.

[Gavur]

There are lot worse storys
My maternal grandfather was from a wealthy Armenian family in Istanbul
He spent most of his childhood in European boarding school because his mother died when he was born,when he came back to Istanbul early 1920's he was held and tortured to admit he was a spy they pulled his nails and ground down his teeth to make him talk ofcourse he was innocent of the charges they let him go.His crime was being an educated Armenian