The Turks

[TurQ]

MRF Against Policy of Intolerance

MRF Against Policy of Intolerance

3 April 2006 | 07:10

During their sixth National Conference the Bulgarian ethnic Turks’ party Movement for Rights and Freedoms /MRF/ adopted a declaration, which states that the Movement would seek the agreement of all democratic parties for explicit opposition to newly-formed parties and tendencies, which aim at revising the national priorities and conduct a policy of political, ethnic, racial and religious intolerance within the context of Bulgaria’s joining to NATO and the EU.
Meanwhile politicians from different parties commented for FOCUS the widely-known explanation of the MRG leader Ahmed Dogan for the circle of companies of the parties. A day earlier Dogan attacked the media, saying that his statement regarding the companies was not interpreted correctly.

[hitite]

Caption: 'A dispute arose as to which of the two - a Turk or a goat - smellt the worse. An enquiry was held - (1) The goat was brought in and the President fainted; (2) The Turk was brought in and the goat fainted. The enquiry was closed.

Bulgarian, what were you actually trying to point out here? What do you have against goats?

[Joseph]

Bulgarian

I'm wondering which European country had a minority in their governments prior to mid 20th century.. Ottomans had Armenians in Palace and in Ottoman government for centuries.

You should be grateful for the Bulgarian government at least follows Ottoman example (eventhough it is like about 4 centuries later or so)


Here is the list


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You may find many Armenians who became Ottoman ministers, generals, ambassador, businessmen, banker, jeweler etc. The Palace Bankers were from the Armenian Duzyan Family (Divrikli) during the 18th century. The General (Pasha) Mehmet Pasha was Armenian (16th Century). Most of the Palace Doctors were from the Armenian Sasyan family. Many Ministers for the Ottoman Mint (darphane) were from the Armenian Bezciyan family in the 19th century. And again some of the Ministers for the Arsenals were from the Armenian Dadyan family. The Foreign Ministry of Ottoman State employed a lot of Armenians under the Abdulhamid II rule. There are many Armenian ambassadors and other diplomats in the Ottoman foreign missions in these years. The Ottoman Sultans had many Armenian advisers and experts in all centuries as well. The Ottoman Army also employed many Armenians as soldiers (in low and high ranked positions) even during the First World War. I list the Armenian high-ranked figures in the Ottoman past:

Agop KAZAZYAN (Minister for Finance)
Maresal Garabet Artin DAVUT Pasha (Minister for Communication)
Mares¸al Garebet Artin DAVUT Pasha (Minister for Public Works)
Andon T?ng?r YAVER Pasha (Minister for Communication)
Oskan MARDI?KYAN(Minister for Communication)
Berdos HALLACYAN (Minister for Public Works)
Baristor Krikor SINAPYAN (Minister for Public Works)
Krikor AGATON (Minister for Public Works)
Gabriel NORADUNKYAN (Minister for Public Works)
Gabriel NORADUNKYAN (Minister of Foreign Affairs)
Agop KAZAZYAN Pasha (Head of the Ottoman Treasury)
Mikael PORTAKALYAN Pasha (Head of the Ottoman Treasury)
Sak?z OHANNES Pasha (Head of the Ottoman Treasury)

Senators

Mares¸al Ohannes KUYUMCUYAN Pasha
Abraham ERAMYAN Pas¸a
Manuk AZARYAN
Gabriel NORADUNKYAN

Directors in Thresury

Artin Zeki
Agop CI?NCI?YAN
Aram HURDACI
M?g?rd?ç HEKI?MYAN
GARABET
TOMAS
H?mayak SEFERYAN
Aram ADI?L
Kevork TORKOMYAN
Melkon MI?LOYAN
Behram YAKUPYAN
Sahak YEREMYAN
Levon PAPAZYAN
Kevork KORAN
Dikran ÇÜBERYAN
Kevork ÇÜVERYAN
Hovsep TAKVORYAN
Krikor TAKVORYAN

Armenian MPs in Ottoman Parliement

1876

Ohannes ALLAHVERDI? Deputy to Parliement Speaker

Sebuh MAKSUDYAN (Istanbul)

Rupen YAZICIYAN (Edirne)
Sahak YAVRUMYAN (Bursa)
Hamazasb BALLARYAN (Erzurum)
Manuk KARCIYAN (Halep)
Mikael ALTINTOP (Ankara)
Agop S¸AHI?NYAN (Sivas)
Taniyel KARACI?YAN (Erzurum)

1908

Krikor ZOHRAP Istanbul Milletvekili
Bedros HALLACYAN Istanbul Miletvekili
Agop BABI?KYAN Tekirdag<breve> Milletvekili
Agop BOYACIYAN Tekirdag Milletvekili
Artin BOS¸GEZENYAN Halep Milletvekili
Dr. Nazaret DAGAVARYAN Sivas Milletvekili
I?stepan I?SPARTALIYAN I?zmir Milletvekili
Hamparsum BOYACIYAN Kozan Milletvekili
Kegam DERGARABEDYAN Mus Milletvekili
Karakin PASTIRMACIYAN Erzurum Milletvekili
Vahan PAPAZYAN Van Milletvekili

1914

Istepan CIRACIYAN (Bas¸kanl?k divan? katibi) Ergani Milletvekili
Onnik I?HSAN I?zmir Milletvekili
Bedros HALLAÇYAN Istanbul Milletvekili
Krikor ZÖHRAP Istanbul Milletvekili
Agop HIRLAKYAN Maras Milletvekili
Kegam DERGARABEDYAN Mus Milletvekili
Artin BOS¸GEZENYAN Halep Milletvekili
Dikran BARSAMYAN Sivas Milletvekili
Matyos NALBATYAN Kozan Milletvekili
Karabet TOMAYAN Kayseri Milletvekili
Sasun Bag<breve>dat Milletvekili
Varteks SERENGÜLYAN Erzurum Milletvekili

Armenian Permanenent Undersecratries in Ministry of Foreign Affairs

Ohannes SAKIZ Pasha
Artin DADYAN Pasha
Harutyun DADYAN Pasha
Manuk AZERYAN

Other Hing Ranked Armenin Civil Servants in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs

Agop GIRCIKYAN
Krikor AGATON
Kevork STI?MARAÇYAN
Sahak ABRO
Krikor MARGOSYAN
Sabuh LAZMI?NAS
Krikor ODYAN
SERKI?S
HURYAN
PARNASYAN
I?stepan ARZUMYAN
Minas MI?NASYAN
Bogos AS¸VAN
Yakup YAKUPYAN
Ohannes SÜRENYAN
SIRABYAN
Ovakin K. REI?SYAN
Edvar MISIRLI
Maksut SEFERYAN
Hrant NORADUNKYAN
MI?KAEL, GULLABYAN
Osep SERPOS
I?lyas ÇAYAN
DAVUT
Nis¸an SEFERYAN
Humayak SEFERYAN
Haçik PAPAZYAN
Mihridat BABAYAN
Levon SÜRENYAN
Simon PAPAZYAN
Rupen KARAKAS
KRI?KOR
Dikron DEMIRCIYAN
Antreas HASUN
CIRACIYAN
Hrant ABRO
CI?VANYAN
BOGOS
KERESTECIYAN
FROM THE MANAS FAMILY: Rupen, Sebuh, Zenop, Pol, Piyer, Gaspar, Puzant, Aleksandr, Jozef MANAS

Armenian Ambassadors and Councillers in Ottoman State's Foreign Missions

Garabet Artin DAVUT Pash (Berlin and Vien)
Dikran ALEKSANYAN (Brussels)
Yetvart ZOHRAB (London)
Hovsep MISAKYAN (The Haig, Netherlands)
Maresal Ohannes KUYUMCUYAN Pasha (Rome)
Dikran TINGIR (Berlin, Germany)
Mihran KAVAFYAN

Armenian Other Councillers in the Ottoman Diplomacy

Hrant DÜZ
Ohannes MAGAKYAN
Mihran KAVAFYAN
Hovsep AZARYAN
Serkis BALYAN
Dikran HÜNKARBEG<breve>ENDI?YAN
Miyas YERAM
M?g?rd?ç EREMYAN
Ohannes NAFI?LYAN
Hrant NORADUNKYAN
ARSEN
AVYAN
Manuk AZARYAN
Puzant MANAS
Rupen MANAS

Other Armenians in Ottoman Embassies

Ohannes ABRAHAMYAM
Harudyun MARKARYAN
Levon YERAMYAN
Dikran DADYAN
Avedik SAHUMYAN
Zenop MANAS
Gaspar MANAS
Pol MANAS
Sebuh MANAS
Pier MANAS
Alexandre MANAS
Diran ALIKSANYAN

Important Armenian Figures in the Ottoman Ministry for Communication

Ministers & High Ranked Civil Servants

Maresal Garabet Artin DAVUT Pasha (Minister)
Andon T?ng?r YAVER Pasha (Minister)
Osgan MARDIKYAN (Minister)
Krikor AGATON (General Director)
Kevork Sabit FINCANCIYAN

Some of the Armenian Civil Servants

Jorj SERPOS
Mis¸el MISIRLI
ERAMYAN
I?STEPAN
HAMPARSUM
ARSEN
PARLADI?
GARAABET
FRAN
Piyer HASSUN
Avedis S¸ALÇIYAN
Mikael ANKARALIYAN
Paskal KAZANCIYAN
Andon KÖSEYAN
Dikran ARAKELYAN
Ohannes ABRAHAMYAN
Melkon YÜZBAS¸IYAN
M?g?rd?ç ACEMYAN
Karekin ÇERKEZYAN

Ministry of Finance - Some of the Important Armenians

Önemli Memurlar
Agop Kazazyan PASHA (Minister)
Sak?z OHANNES
Çam?ç OHANNES
Ohannes ALLAHVERDI
Sak?z ARMENAK
Yeremyan ÇELEBI?
Osep BEHLEMYAN
Artin DUZ
Serkis DUZ
Ohannes DUZ
Mikael DUZ
Bogos DUZ
Agop DUZ
Krikor DUZ
Garabet DUZ
Mihran DUZ
I?stepan SASYAN
I?stepan ARAPYAN

Ministry of National Education - Some of the Armenians in This Ministry

Mihran DÜZ (Müstes¸ar)
Tomas TERZI?YAN
Nis¸an GUGASYAN
Tavit ÇIRACIYAN
Sebuh TABI?BYAN
SARYAN
Artin OHANNESYAN
Hovsep YUSUFYAN
Agop BOYACIYAN
Yervant
OSKAN
Mikael AS¸CIYAN
Krikor OSKI?YAN
Rahip Kleman SI?BI?LYAN
Prof. Krikor KÖMÜRCI?YAN
Artin SARAFYAN
Hamazasb HAKI?

Ministry of Justice and Danistay (The Council of State) - Some of the Armenians

Dan?stay Uyeleri (Council of State) Members

Andon T?ng?r YAVER Pas¸a Dan?s¸tay Üyesi
Abraham YEREMYAN Pas¸a Dan?s¸tay Üyesi
Mihran DÜZ Dan?s¸tay Üyesi
Bedros KUYUMCUYAN Dan?s¸tay Üyesi

VAHAM
Serkis KARAKOÇ (Und.)
Artin S¸inasi PEKMEZOG<breve>LU (Undrs.)
GARABET (Undr.)
GASBAR
Diran PARGAMYAN
Bogos S¸AS¸YAN
Dikran YUSUFYAN
Takvar HAMAMCIYAN
Kapriel KAPRI?YELI?YAN
Ohannes TOROSYAN
Viçen HOKOSYAN
I?stepan KARAYAN
Markar UNCUYAN
Tateos REFKI?
Diran AS¸NANYAN
Kapriel NES¸TERCI?YAN
Artin MOSDI?ÇYAN
Ovakim REI?SYAN
Kevork FI?KRI?
HAYRABET


Ohannes TINGIR
Bogos MISIRLIYAN
Krikor ODYAN
Serkis DÜZ
Artin DADYAN
Sahak ABRO
Zareh DI?LBER
Ohannes NURYAN
I?lyas ÇAYAN
Duran DADYAN
Andon KÖSEYAN
Bedros Zeki GARABETYAN
Krikor HIDIRYAN
H?rant ASADUR

--------------
Ministry of Internal Affairs - Some of the Armenian Civil Servants

Mares¸al Garabet Artin DAVUT Pas¸a
VARTAN Pas¸a
Krikor S¸ABANYAN
Osep AMI?RA
Haçadur DERNERSESYAN
Nis¸an KAZAZYAN
Mikael MAMI?KONYAN
Bedros KAPAMACIYAN
Karakin DEVECI?YAN
Servet PARACIYAN
Sisak FERI?T
Minas GAMSAR
Levon SÜRENYAN
Yervan YUSUFYAN
Bogos PARNASYAN
Harutyun HANDANYAN

Vali Muavinleri

Ohannes FERI?T
Ohannes ASASYAN
L.AYCI?YAN
Antranik BI?LLURYAN

Mustesar Muavinleri

Nazaret
Gazaros SAYEBAG<breve>LIYAN
HAGOP
Mihran BOYACIYAN
Harundyun APARTYAN
Levon
Minas CUKASIZYAN
Nazaret ARMENAK
Fikri ASLANYAN
MANUEL
Garabet ISRAELYAN
BEDROS
NI?SAN
PASKAL
Sarim CUKASIZYAN
Dikran KIRISCIYAN
Hagop FERI?T
Garabet TOROSYAN
Hagop YAVER
Krikor PAPAZYAN
Nis¸an AGAH
Armenak BOYACIYAN
KRIKOR
Dikran KEVORK
Avedis SISLIYAN
Minas HEKI?MYAN
Garebet TEKVORYAN
Artin ZEKI
Asadur KUSADALIYAN
Andon GOCEYAN
Simpat DERNERSESYAN

H?mayak SEFERYAN
Aram ADI?L
Kevork TORKOMYAN
Melkon MI?LOYAN
Behram YAKUPYAN
Sahak YEREMYAN
Levon PAPAZYAN
Kevork KORAN
Dikran ÇÜBERYAN
Kevork ÇÜVERYAN
Hovsep TAKVORYAN
Krikor TAKVORYAN

Some of the Armenians in the Ottoman Ministry of National Development


Maresal Garabet Artin DAVUT Pasha (Minister)
Bedros HALLAÇYAN (Minister)
BAristor Krikor SINAPYAN (Minister)
Krikor AGATON (Minister)
Gabriel NORADUNKYAN (Minister)

Armenicam Civil Servants

Krikor ODYAN
M?g?rd?ç SINAPYAN
Ohannes KARDAVYAN
Bedros HORASANYAN
Kevork PAKARAD
Bogos HANLIYAN
Melkon NAZIKYAN
Karakin GAZAROSYAN
Edvard Yervant SAMUELYAN

Agriculture Office


Krikor HEKI?MYAN
Eram
Haygaz BEGYAN
M?g?rd?ç HEKI?MYAN
Kevork TORKOMYAN
Nis¸an KALFAYAN
Bedros KUYUMCUYAN
Onnik I?HSAN

While I can appreciate the Christians did hold high positions at times in the Ottoman Empire, it was not due to enlightenment or Ottoman liberal ideals. They were ambassadors because they spoke foreign languages, knew their European counterparts and being Christian, this gave them more politcal understanding and mileage in Europe. Had there been no pressure (Tanzimat reforms and thereafter) from Europeans, there would have been no Armenians parliamentarians and I would speculate that there presence was purely symbolic (and the very nature of how they arrived at those positions probably made them hated). The reason that we call April 24, 1915 the start date of the Genocide even though the killings began the previous year, is that many of these parliamentarians were murdered on that day. Some were even Dashnak which further complicates the situation because it shows that their involvement in the gov't did not mesh with the popular Turkish view that they were fully focused on statehood in the 1914/1915 period ( in that respect it kind of mirrors the Kurdish situation today)

With regards to various finance, economic, and development ministers, they provided an expertise due to their education and experience in business dealings. For generations it was the work the dhimmi did and was not something held in high regard from their Muslim counterparts. Muslims did not deal with banking, finance, brokerage, etc. often due to relgious reasons but mostly because culturally, its just what Armenians, Jews and Greeks did and excelled at and what they were allowed to partake in unlike say the military or as regional governors or large landowners, etc.

My point is that I see quite often that it is used in the standard lexicon of the Turkish official position that "hey look at how many Armenians were in the gov't, that shows there could be no genocide"
Well, the simple case is that the Ottoman Empire needed accountants, bankers, artisans, architects, financiers, etc out of necessity and when the genocide occured, the fact of their murder, exile, etc is glossed over.
Armenians, Greeks, Jews, Assyrians, were there out of necessity not because they were welcome or respected. Some did survive into the Republican period (Dilicar comes to mind) but only because they were irreplacable at the time.

[Bulgarian]

Exactly Joseph.

The Ottomans where forced to reform and in anycase their reforms were limited and uneffective. The Turks in the Ottoman empire were too stupid to do the jobs that Armenians and Greeks carried out. The Greeks and Armenians were killed because they were the rich ones (just like the Jews that died under the Nazis). I dont see a difference between the Nazis and the Young Turks. The Nazis copied the Young Turks and used modern German technology to update the methods used by the Young Turks. Talat was killed in Germany wasnt he? Isnt it possible that more Young Turks fled to Germany and perhaps met Hitler and other Nazis to give a better insight into commiting Genocides.

TurQ what can I say apart from the fact that Turkeys very own minorities have many protests (of course Turkeys laws which are close or at the very least mimic those of a facist state) consider these people as terrorists.

If the Bulgarian government followed the example of Turkey then we would have to massacre the 1 million+ Turks in our country. I know that even the most ardent Bulgarian nationalists wouldnt dream of doing this. Just wait until our coalition gets into power the Turks will get their commupance.

Whats the matter TurQ cant you at least critise the any of those Turks that killed that Greek Cypriot in cold blood. Or the Turkish Cypriot politician who shot dead that guys cousin a few weeks later because he climbed a flag pole with the Turkish flag. Cant you at least critise Turkeys facists the MHP were the ones who created forest fires in the Greek Aegean islands and who try and prevent any debate on the Armenian genocide or who tried to kill the late pope. Not even one word of critism? My my my TurQ we all know your true colours dont we???

[Joseph]

Exactly Joseph.

The Ottomans where forced to reform and in anycase their reforms were limited and uneffective. The Turks in the Ottoman empire were too stupid to do the jobs that Armenians and Greeks carried out. The Greeks and Armenians were killed because they were the rich ones (just like the Jews that died under the Nazis). I dont see a difference between the Nazis and the Young Turks. The Nazis copied the Young Turks and used modern German technology to update the methods used by the Young Turks. Talat was killed in Germany wasnt he? Isnt it possible that more Young Turks fled to Germany and perhaps met Hitler and other Nazis to give a better insight into commiting Genocides.

TurQ what can I say apart from the fact that Turkeys very own minorities have many protests (of course Turkeys laws which are close or at the very least mimic those of a facist state) consider these people as terrorists.

If the Bulgarian government followed the example of Turkey then we would have to massacre the 1 million+ Turks in our country. I know that even the most ardent Bulgarian nationalists wouldnt dream of doing this. Just wait until our coalition gets into power the Turks will get their commupance.

Whats the matter TurQ cant you at least critise the any of those Turks that killed that Greek Cypriot in cold blood. Or the Turkish Cypriot politician who shot dead that guys cousin a few weeks later because he climbed a flag pole with the Turkish flag. Cant you at least critise Turkeys facists the MHP were the ones who created forest fires in the Greek Aegean islands and who try and prevent any debate on the Armenian genocide or who tried to kill the late pope. Not even one word of critism? My my my TurQ we all know your true colours dont we???

Bulgarian,

I didn't mean it in a racsist way. Turks in Turkey are obviously in occupying those jobs now in Turkey and doing fine.

[Bulgarian]

Where was I racist. Im getting tired of being called a racist. Cant you see the link between the Young Turks and the Nazis that followed them?

I know Turks are doing fine. The reason they are doing fine is because of what they did to the peoples all around them. Do you think if the Tuks didnt impose their religion and their language amongst the peoples of the Balkans, the Caucasus', Anatolia and the Middle East. Do you think the Turks would number so many? Do you think there would be a Turkey? Dont you think there would be an larger Armenia, an actual state called Kurdistan and a larger Greece.

Why are there many white Turks who look no different from northern Europeans? Why are there so many tanned Turks who look no different from Armenians and other peoples from the middle east and southern Europe. Why did Turkey get away from the punishment of losing WW1? What there finally treaty gave them was as if they won WW1! Time and time again Turkey double crosses everyone and Turkey displays slyness. They have illegally invade Cyprus. They have an embargo with Armenia. The poll which said that Armenian youth favour relations with Turkey is probably true because the Turks have crippled Armenia (yet again) so the Armenian youth are desperate. Turkey defies international laws. Turkey is against the largest race in the world from establishing a homeland even if that homeland is outside of Turkey. Turkey uses NATO and US weapons to commit inhumain crimes against the Kurds. This is just the tip of the iceburg.

[bell-the-cat]

I'm wondering which European country had a minority in their governments prior to mid 20th century.

I would suggest that every European democracy had minorities in their governments. Can you prove otherwise?

For example, Britain even had a Jewish prime-minister in the 19th century.

Armenian MPs in Ottoman Parliament
1914

Istepan CIRACIYAN (Başkanlık divanı katibi) Ergani Milletvekili
Onnik İHSAN İzmir Milletvekili
Bedros HALLAÇYAN Istanbul Milletvekili
Krikor ZÖHRAP Istanbul Milletvekili
Agop HIRLAKYAN Maras Milletvekili
Kegam DERGARABEDYAN Mus Milletvekili
Artin BOŞGEZENYAN Halep Milletvekili
Dikran BARSAMYAN Sivas Milletvekili
Matyos NALBATYAN Kozan Milletvekili
Karabet TOMAYAN Kayseri Milletvekili
Sasun Bağdat Milletvekili
Varteks SERENGÜLYAN Erzurum Milletvekili

How many of them were murdered in 1915?

There was a discussion about this on another forum, when I was trying to identify the name of the Armenian member of the Ottoman parliament that Nogales saw being driven off in a car to be murdered by Turkish soldiers in Mush in 1915.

[TurQ]

Joseph

An average Enderun(Palace University) student could speak at least 5-6 langauges. In Ottoman beurocracy this was a very common thing, mst of the soldiers serving in Balkans knew Greek, Serbo-Croat and Hungarian. that was not only the case for Armenians, probably Armenians learned those foreign langauges in Ottoman Universities.


[QUOTE=Joseph]While I can appreciate the Christians did hold high positions at times in the Ottoman Empire, it was not due to enlightenment or Ottoman liberal ideals. They were ambassadors because they spoke foreign languages, knew their European counterparts and being Christian, this gave them more politcal understanding and mileage in Europe. Had there been no pressure (Tanzimat reforms and thereafter) from Europeans, there would have been no Armenians parliamentarians and I would speculate that there presence was purely symbolic (and the very nature of how they arrived at those positions /QUOTE]

[TurQ]

Read your posts once more, you'll see that you're racist

Where was I racist. Im getting tired of being called a racist. Cant you see the link between the Young Turks and the Nazis that followed them?

against the Kurds. This is just the tip of the iceburg.

[TurQ]

I know Varteks was hanged in Istanbul,
dont know the rest
But the thin is before 1915 Ottomans didnnt see Armenians as being Armenian threat bu a general eastern problem, and it's obvious that the claims about Armenians being second class citizens in Ottomans is a false claim, they had these high ranking positions which you can not see any of the western countries of that time. CUP and traditional Ottoman styles are different,

I would suggest that every European democracy had minorities in their governments. Can you prove otherwise?

For example, Britain even had a Jewish prime-minister in the 19th century.



How many of them were murdered in 1915?

There was a discussion about this on another forum, when I was trying to identify the name of the Armenian member of the Ottoman parliament that Nogales saw being driven off in a car to be murdered by Turkish soldiers in Mush in 1915.