The Turks

[TurQ]

Joseph
Armenians hold places for centries from 15-16th century on they were in beurocracy, I dont think Ottomans would every feel a symboli c gestures for this.

And yes they've been called Millet-i Sadika becasue even during Timur's attacks to Ottomans, and during times of depressions Turkish Beyliks tend to break up from Ottomans, Armenians supported the central Ottoman autority.

they spoke foreign languages, knew their European counterparts and being Christian, this gave them more politcal understanding and mileage in Europe. Had there been no pressure (Tanzimat reforms and thereafter) from Europeans, there would have been no Armenians parliamentarians and I would speculate that there presence was purely symbolic (and the very nature of how they arrived at those positions probably made them hated). The reason that we call April 24, 1915 the start date of the Genocide even though the killings began the previous year, is that many of these parliamentarians were murdered on that day. Some were even Dashnak which further complicates the situation because it shows that their involvement in the gov't did not mesh with the popular Turkish view that they were fully focused on statehood in the 1914/1915 period ( in that respect it kind of mirrors the Kurdish situation today)

time.

[TurQ]

Joesph the Tashnak friendship with CUP is not a secret for Turks, everybody in TR knows it and hoow CUP traitors organized assasination to Sultan with Tashnaks. I can give you articles in Turkish on this, how even by late 1914 individuals like Bahattin Shakir believed in Tashnak support aganst Russians.

I think this friendship complicates the official Armenian approach because they say eveyrthing was planned long before 1915. The Turks dont support CUP, but just becuase Armenians portray events done by CUP as done by Ottomans as a whole, the official Turkish stance is to be support CUP's position, Talat was a traitor, h e was exiled tried in absentee, but when he was assasinated that's changed.

The reason that we call April 24, 1915 the start date of the Genocide even though the killings began the previous year, is that many of these parliamentarians were murdered on that day. Some were even Dashnak which further complicates the situation because it shows that their involvement in the gov't did not mesh with the popular Turkish view that they were fully focused on statehood in the 1914/1915 period ( in that respect it kind of mirrors the Kurdish situation today)
.

[Gavur]

[QUOTE=TurQ]Joseph

An average Enderun(Palace University) student could speak at least 5-6 langauges. In Ottoman beurocracy this was a very common thing, mst of the soldiers serving in Balkans knew Greek, Serbo-Croat and Hungarian. that was not only the case for Armenians, probably Armenians learned those foreign langauges in Ottoman Universities.

While I can appreciate the Christians did hold high positions at times in the Ottoman Empire, it was not due to enlightenment or Ottoman liberal ideals. They were ambassadors because they spoke foreign languages, knew their European counterparts and being Christian, this gave them more politcal understanding and mileage in Europe. Had there been no pressure (Tanzimat reforms and thereafter) from Europeans, there would have been no Armenians parliamentarians and I would speculate that there presence was purely symbolic (and the very nature of how they arrived at those positions /QUOTE]

Thats laughable

[TurQ]

That could be one reason, and you kow the Kabatas Bankers of Istanbul mostly Brit/French origin who stabbed us back in late 19th century and early 20th cetury, the influence of those bankers obviously countered by our Armenian origin beurocracts.

In addition to that Sultan Abdulhamid bought writers in French media that speculated about big companies in France and Britain and harmed the stock markets in thse countries to encounter what those Bankers of Kabatas and KArakoy.

I also remember reading about an Armenian origin minister of Abdulhamid, he was a genious and an intellectual who have autored a book on Islam in French and published in France against anti-Muslim propoganda.

With regards to various finance, economic, and development ministers, they provided an expertise due to their education and experience in business dealings. For generations it was the work the dhimmi did and was not something held in high regard from their Muslim counterparts. Muslims did not deal with banking, finance, brokerage, etc. often due to relgious reasons but mostly because culturally, its just what Armenians, Jews and Greeks did and excelled at and what they were allowed to partake in unlike say the military or as regional governors or large landowners, etc.

[TurQ]

Where did they learn then?
From Angels?

Do some reading on Enderun...


[QUOTE=Gavur]

Joseph

An average Enderun(Palace University) student could speak at least 5-6 langauges. In Ottoman beurocracy this was a very common thing, mst of the soldiers serving in Balkans knew Greek, Serbo-Croat and Hungarian. that was not only the case for Armenians, probably Armenians learned those foreign langauges in Ottoman Universities.






Thats laughable

[TurQ]

I think Zohrab was killed in Diyarbakr but that was in 1915

I would suggest that every European democracy had minorities in their governments. Can you prove otherwise?

For example, Britain even had a Jewish prime-minister in the 19th century.



How many of them were murdered in 1915?

There was a discussion about this on another forum, when I was trying to identify the name of the Armenian member of the Ottoman parliament that Nogales saw being driven off in a car to be murdered by Turkish soldiers in Mush in 1915.

[Gavur]

[QUOTE=TurQ]Where did they learn then?
From Angels?

Do some reading on Enderun...




I cant believe this ,Turq its a known fact that they all got their education abroad mostly Europe which is why they were indispansable to the Ottomans.

[1.5 million]

I think this friendship complicates the official Armenian approach because they say eveyrthing was planned long before 1915. The Turks dont support CUP, but just becuase Armenians portray events done by CUP as done by Ottomans as a whole, the official Turkish stance is to be support CUP's position, Talat was a traitor, h e was exiled tried in absentee, but when he was assasinated that's changed.

What? Up to your crap again I see...

CUP stabbed Dashnaks in the back - and used them (not the other way around as Turks like to portray). Also there were branches of the CUP - liberal and xenophobic - the latter won out (predictably). Obvioulsy not all ottomans or Turks were guilty of the Genocide - though a great many were complicit - and the official and popular Turkish policy of sheltering the guilty - even to this day makes your government and in a sense entire nation guilty of aiding and abetting - as it were!

[TurQ]

May be by late 19th century it could've been true, especially they went to France for education like the young Turks did.
But I am talking abuot Armenians throughout the History not only in late 19th century or early 20th century.

An average Ottoman beurocract had to to know at least 5-6 langauges, that was prerequisite even to soldiers serving in Balkans as I pointed earlier.

Learning languages was part of Ottoman state education.



[QUOTE=Gavur]

Where did they learn then?
From Angels?

Do some reading on Enderun...






I cant believe this ,Turq its a known fact that they all got their education abroad mostly Europe which is why they were indispansable to the Ottomans.

[1.5 million]

[QUOTE=Gavur]

I cant believe this ,Turq its a known fact that they all got their education abroad mostly Europe which is why they were indispansable to the Ottomans.

exactly - and bravo to Josephs fine post/response in this thread as well...I don't know how many times I have seen this "Armenains were in the Government" sort of thing as an excuse. To anyone who knows the history there are many reasons for this (one of course being that the Ottoman Empire was not entirely evil and in fact they understood how to administer populations and use their various talents - etc)....of course much was also forced and was "token" - Armenians - while ably working for the Ottoman State were never real power figures that had any real policy influence.