The Turks

[TurQ]

Yes me too

Is there any official numbers or research on that?

I wonder what The Armenian male % was!

[Bulgarian]

Yes me too

Is there any official numbers or research on that?

Even if there is a high percentage of Armenian men who survived the genocide that wont change wherever or not the events that befell the Armenian race can be called genocide. Good try TurQ - now try again.

[TurQ]

If you have anything to say say it otherwise, in Turkish we have a saying for those "Iki kisi konusurken 3'uncunun hakki ... yemektir"

Well as two individuals speak, the third's share is to eat ....

Even if there is a high percentage of Armenian men who survived the genocide that wont change wherever or not the events that befell the Armenian race can be called genocide. Good try TurQ - now try again.

[Bulgarian]

Armenian Orphan Children



The Turks burn Smyrna.

[Bulgarian]

Armenian Genocide memorial vandalised in France a few days ago (it was only erected a few days prior to the vandalism)

[1.5 million]

Well that need is not like Armenians were talented or like,

You ignorant or perhaps just lying fool...

cause the Muslim citizens of the Emipre were obliged to serve in the army, and since 1870s the male population of the muslim communities diminished, and inevitably Armenians or others were needed. This point is always overlooked. After WW-I only 1/3s of the muslim population was male being mosty either kids or elderly.

Why is a warrior people making an issue of this - and then blaming one of the people they destroyed? Did Armenians cause the ttoman Empire to enjoin into these wars?

And Again Armenians were in Ottoman beurocracy long before than the period that you're mentioning, from 15th century on they wer ein Ottoman beurocracy. I know it is hard to accept for diasporans but Armenians were not the "Other" of Turks up until 1890s.

No...I supose they had all the rights and benefits of Muslims then eh?

Armenians in Ottoman bureaucracy not at all the same as Armenians being equal or even having any power or respect...they were technicians being employed by the Ottoman overlords...there were Armenian Emporers in Byzantium BTW...

But yeah perhaps in part what you say is true....1890s....Pan-Turan...

[Joseph]

[QUOTE=TurQ]Joseph

An average Enderun(Palace University) student could speak at least 5-6 langauges. In Ottoman beurocracy this was a very common thing, mst of the soldiers serving in Balkans knew Greek, Serbo-Croat and Hungarian. that was not only the case for Armenians, probably Armenians learned those foreign langauges in Ottoman Universities.

While I can appreciate the Christians did hold high positions at times in the Ottoman Empire, it was not due to enlightenment or Ottoman liberal ideals. They were ambassadors because they spoke foreign languages, knew their European counterparts and being Christian, this gave them more politcal understanding and mileage in Europe. Had there been no pressure (Tanzimat reforms and thereafter) from Europeans, there would have been no Armenians parliamentarians and I would speculate that there presence was purely symbolic (and the very nature of how they arrived at those positions /QUOTE]

That may be so, but as I wrote in my post having the cloak of Christianity elevated the importance of Christians Dhimmis in the Ottoman foreign ministry. Additionally, Armenians and Greek involvement in commercial affairs made some of the ministers invaluable.

[Joseph]

I know Varteks was hanged in Istanbul,
dont know the rest
But the thin is before 1915 Ottomans didnnt see Armenians as being Armenian threat bu a general eastern problem, and it's obvious that the claims about Armenians being second class citizens in Ottomans is a false claim, they had these high ranking positions which you can not see any of the western countries of that time. CUP and traditional Ottoman styles are different,

Regardless of how wealthly and connected an Armenians might have been, by law they were second class citizens. I'm not saying this to insult Turks and the practice itself was almost par for the course at those times ( you can use Russian treatment of the Jews as a similar example) but it must be remembered that Christians were dhimmis and had not rights to address Ottoman courts if there rights were violated by a Muslim, had restrictions on land ownership, paid onerous taxes, etc. The Armenians elite at the time was successful not because of Ottoman protection necessarily but in spite of it.

[Joseph]

Joseph
Armenians hold places for centries from 15-16th century on they were in beurocracy, I dont think Ottomans would every feel a symboli c gestures for this.

And yes they've been called Millet-i Sadika becasue even during Timur's attacks to Ottomans, and during times of depressions Turkish Beyliks tend to break up from Ottomans, Armenians supported the central Ottoman autority.

But like I wrote before, Armenians held those positions because of their involvement in commercial enterprise and for this some were invaluable for the Ottoman Empire. Armenians, Greeks and Jews controled the vast majority of trade. Under the Millet system Armenians had political positions but only to govern their own Millet. You're right about Armenians closing ranks with the Ottomans versus Timur. Timur was homocidal maniac and was killing everyone he and his forces could get there hands on regardless of ethnicity.

[Joseph]

Joesph the Tashnak friendship with CUP is not a secret for Turks, everybody in TR knows it and hoow CUP traitors organized assasination to Sultan with Tashnaks. I can give you articles in Turkish on this, how even by late 1914 individuals like Bahattin Shakir believed in Tashnak support aganst Russians.

I think this friendship complicates the official Armenian approach because they say eveyrthing was planned long before 1915. The Turks dont support CUP, but just becuase Armenians portray events done by CUP as done by Ottomans as a whole, the official Turkish stance is to be support CUP's position, Talat was a traitor, h e was exiled tried in absentee, but when he was assasinated that's changed.

The Dashnaks were certainly allied with the CUP up until after Turkey declared war on Russia, and after that they tried to declare neutrality. Their original aims were not independence and they were big believers in the 1908 Revolution and also sympathized with the anti-imperial movement in Russia. As such, they considered themselves aligned with other socialist and liberal movements throughout the region. But they were and still are only a minority of the Armenian population.

From what I've read, there were several different wings of the CUP that splintered off: The Pan-Ottomans, Pan- Islamists, and Pan-Turks. The Pan-Turks had the backing of Enver, Talaat, and to a degree Jemal (hwo was also quite Pan-Islamic) and they took the reigns of power. After the 1909 Adana massacres, the Armenian populace started to doubt CUP intentions but that is another subject entirely but shows who the most powerful CUP grouping was. THe Pan-Turks hated AbdulHamid but agreed with him in one important area, the Armenians were not to be trusted and would have to be dealt with. Between 1909 through the Balkan wars prior to WWI, more liberal members of the CUP were exiled or replaced by those who were owed allegiance to the Pan-TUrkish wing or had blood relations to the senior membership.