The Turks

[TurQ]

Bulgarian
I am talking about Ottoman period as a whole not only after 1878 Berlin treaty, Ottomans had no problem with Armenians for majority of the times.

Exactly Joseph.

The Ottomans where forced to reform and in anycase their reforms were limited and uneffective. The Turks in the Ottoman empire were too stupid to do the jobs that Armenians and Greeks carried out. The Greeks and Armenians were killed because they were the rich ones (just like the Jews that died under the Nazis). I dont see a difference between the Nazis and the Young Turks. The Nazis copied the Young Turks and used modern German technology to update the methods used by the Young Turks. Talat was killed in Germany wasnt he? Isnt it possible that more Young Turks fled to Germany and perhaps met Hitler and other Nazis to give a better insight into commiting Genocides.

TurQ what can I say apart from the fact that Turkeys very own minorities have many protests (of course Turkeys laws which are close or at the very least mimic those of a facist state) consider these people as terrorists.

If the Bulgarian government followed the example of Turkey then we would have to massacre the 1 million+ Turks in our country. I know that even the most ardent Bulgarian nationalists wouldnt dream of doing this. Just wait until our coalition gets into power the Turks will get their commupance.

Whats the matter TurQ cant you at least critise the any of those Turks that killed that Greek Cypriot in cold blood. Or the Turkish Cypriot politician who shot dead that guys cousin a few weeks later because he climbed a flag pole with the Turkish flag. Cant you at least critise Turkeys facists the MHP were the ones who created forest fires in the Greek Aegean islands and who try and prevent any debate on the Armenian genocide or who tried to kill the late pope. Not even one word of critism? My my my TurQ we all know your true colours dont we???

[Gavur]

So maybe its correct to say revolutions almost always start in the Diaspora and Turkey knows this.

[1.5 million]

I know Varteks was hanged in Istanbul,
dont know the rest
But the thin is before 1915 Ottomans didnnt see Armenians as being Armenian threat bu a general eastern problem, and it's obvious that the claims about Armenians being second class citizens in Ottomans is a false claim, they had these high ranking positions which you can not see any of the western countries of that time. CUP and traditional Ottoman styles are different,

Funny that you would claim that Ottomaons didn't see Armenains as a threat prior to 1915 - yet this is the excuse given for the actions taken against them. In fact Ottomans never saw Armenian s as a "threat" per se - only as a political inconvienicne - and for this they cleansed the lands of us and commited a barbaric genocide - shame on them - great shame....don't you agree?

And that you dispute that Armenains were second class citizens proves you are just lying to us here - you just cant be that stupid/ignorant - can you?

[TurQ]

thats true

So maybe its correct to say revolutions almost always start in the Diaspora and Turkey knows this.

[1.5 million]

Bulgarian
I am talking about Ottoman period as a whole not only after 1878 Berlin treaty, Ottomans had no problem with Armenians for majority of the times.

Ottomans never had a problem with Armenians except as created in their own minds as a result of insanity brought about by the collapse of their Empire and the downfall of their (expected) glory. You fail to properly understand the conquorer/warrior mentality of the Ottoman Turks and how and why the fell so hard and how and why they decided to - among other things - take it out on the most loyal and beneficial element of their population - because of insanity (much like the Nazis were a symptom of Germany's insanity)

[1.5 million]

So maybe its correct to say revolutions almost always start in the Diaspora and Turkey knows this.

yes very good point - and why we shouldn't be surprised by much of the origins of the CUP/Young Turks being from fringe Turks beyond Anatolia and beyond the ethnic Ottoman Turk main...

[TurQ]

Well I am not familiar with such official stance but could be true, I dont know.

My aim was to point out the fact that the official Armenian thesis saying is that
Armenians have always been tortured and treated like inhumans throughout the hisotry beginning from Mongolian(Jengiz and Hulagu, who are enemies of Turks BTW) times thru Seljuks and all of the Ottoman period, Armenians were mis-treated. I simply say that it is no true, this is totally a seperate argument on 1915, the Armenian leaders of 1915 are not the same of those Armenians in 19th century and before likewise Ottomans in 1915 is not the same Ottoman as it before 1908. This simple distinction is not made(in my opinion thats on purpose) and Turks have been vilified as whole from beginning of the history. I personally have problem with that thats why I've posted, may be it needed some clarification

My point is that I see quite often that it is used in the standard lexicon of the Turkish official position that "hey look at how many Armenians were in the gov't, that shows there could be no genocide"
Well, the simple case is that the Ottoman Empire needed accountants, bankers, artisans, architects, financiers, etc out of necessity and when the genocide occured, the fact of their murder, exile, etc is glossed over.
Armenians, Greeks, Jews, Assyrians, were there out of necessity not because they were welcome or respected. Some did survive into the Republican period (Dilicar comes to mind) but only because they were irreplacable at the time.

[Gavur]

Ottomans never had a problem with Armenians except as created in their own minds as a result of insanity brought about by the collapse of their Empire and the downfall of their (expected) glory. You fail to properly understand the conquorer/warrior mentality of the Ottoman Turks and how and why the fell so hard and how and why they decided to - among other things - take it out on the most loyal and beneficial element of their population - because of insanity (much like the Nazis were a symptom of Germany's insanity)

In "The Armenian Genocide" Documantry I was amazed how easy some Turks were manipaleted and bribed by people using Islam .They were told it was Helal to kill Armenians as they admitted in interview.These ignorant people thought cool we'll just annihilate these folks take everything they got here and now plus we have guaranteed ticket to heaven .
How can you resist it if your Moslem?

[TurQ]

Well that need is not like Armenians were talented or like, cause the Muslim citizens of the Emipre were obliged to serve in the army, and since 1870s the male population of the muslim communities diminished, and inevitably Armenians or others were needed. This point is always overlooked. After WW-I only 1/3s of the muslim population was male being mosty either kids or elderly.



As far as Dilacar concerned, he was inthe army and later he was also deported to Syria, Ataturk met with him in Damascus(Ithink dilacar was 19 at that time), Ataturk invited him to Turkey, he gave Turkish citizenship and the position as the head of Turk Dil Kurumu (Turkish language Foundation).

And Again Armenians were in Ottoman beurocracy long before than the period that you're mentioning, from 15th century on they wer ein Ottoman beurocracy. I know it is hard to accept for diasporans but Armenians were not the "Other" of Turks up until 1890s.

Well, the simple case is that the Ottoman Empire needed accountants, bankers, artisans, architects, financiers, etc out of necessity and when the genocide occured, the fact of their murder, exile, etc is glossed over.
Armenians, Greeks, Jews, Assyrians, were there out of necessity not because they were welcome or respected. Some did survive into the Republican period (Dilicar comes to mind) but only because they were irreplacable at the time.

[Gavur]

Well that need is not like Armenians were talented or like, cause the Muslim citizens of the Emipre were obliged to serve in the army, and since 1870s the male population of the muslim communities diminished, and inevitably Armenians or others were needed. This point is always overlooked. After WW-I only 1/3s of the muslim population was male being mosty either kids or elderly.



As far as Dilacar concerned, he was inthe army and later he was also deported to Syria, Ataturk met with him in Damascus(Ithink dilacar was 19 at that time), Ataturk invited him to Turkey, he gave Turkish citizenship and the position as the head of Turk Dil Kurumu (Turkish language Foundation).

And Again Armenians were in Ottoman beurocracy long before than the period that you're mentioning, from 15th century on they wer ein Ottoman beurocracy. I know it is hard to accept for diasporans but Armenians were not the "Other" of Turks up until 1890s.

I wonder what The Armenian male % was!