if this forum is for searching truths, i want to contribute

[bell-the-cat]

Bell in Jun 1915 there were no sizeable Turkish army to defend(may be a few units),

And that "no sizeable Turkish army" chased the Russian army all the way back to the Eleshkirt valley.

Again this info is directly from the decendants of those volunteer groups.

Those volunteer groups were the ones largely responsible for committing the genocide. Believe the descendants of murderers if you wish.

[Hovik]

I've read through some of the recent posts in this thread, and I just wanted to say to the participants in the discussion, particularly Bell and Turq, that I admire your civility and the intellectual manner in which you are discussing this with each other - you both set an excellent example for your respective communities to follow. Thank you and keep it up!

[TurQ]

If you are talking about June 1915 they were the local fighters

No, you just read the books, this grou centered in Bitlis, saved 1500 children and held truce with Armenians.

They also ordered other groups to stop killing civilians.

And that "no sizeable Turkish army" chased the Russian army all the way back to the Eleshkirt valley.



Those volunteer groups were the ones largely responsible for committing the genocide. Believe the descendants of murderers if you wish.

[TurQ]

Colonel Ali Cetinkaya later took over the control of forces, but for june 1915 there were no sizeable Turkish army units left, they have retreated.

If you are talking about June 1915 they were the local fighters

No, you just read the books, this grou centered in Bitlis, saved 1500 children and held truce with Armenians.

They also ordered other groups to stop killing civilians.

[TurQ]

Thanx Hovik

I've read through some of the recent posts in this thread, and I just wanted to say to the participants in the discussion, particularly Bell and Turq, that I admire your civility and the intellectual manner in which you are discussing this with each other - you both set an excellent example for your respective communities to follow. Thank you and keep it up!

[bell-the-cat]

Colonel Ali Cetinkaya later took over the control of forces, but for june 1915 there were no sizeable Turkish army units left, they have retreated.

According to Muratoff and Allen:

After the retreat from Van, the defense of Bitlis and Mush was under the command of Halil Bey - He had under him the 36th division, elements of the 3rd and 5th divisions, the gendarme division, frontier guards, and irregular Kurdish calvery. They were in total about 40,000 strong. The 3rd and 5th divisions were excellent troops according to M&A, since they were from regular army divisions and were not recent conscripts. They were based at Mush. The rest were for the defense of Bitlis (M&A do not say where exactly they were positioned, except "to the south of Lake Van"). There was also the 2nd calvery division (stationed between the Murat Su and the lake) and the 37th division (which held the region around Kop).

During february and march 1915 the three army corps that had been decimated at Sarikamish were secretly reorganised and brought up to strength, and in May three divisions of IX corps were secretly moved south to Hinis.

This brought the total number of troops facing the Russian advance in June-July 1915 to 8 divisions and over 70,000 men according to M&A. All of which proves that there were not "no sizeable Turkish army units left"!

[TurQ]

I naturally question the dept of this information

could you give us the exact references. What I know from the people invoved is that the Russians were stopped by the locals militia/volunteers who used the army ammunition/artilery.

One thing possible is that after the Russian advace is stopped, the army units could've returned back after seeing the threat is gone. Cause it's told by them that the people of Bitlis was in fear because the aRmy was retreating.

According to Muratoff and Allen:

After the retreat from Van, the defense of Bitlis and Mush was under the command of Halil Bey - He had under him the 36th division, elements of the 3rd and 5th divisions, the gendarme division, frontier guards, and irregular Kurdish calvery. They were in total about 40,000 strong. The 3rd and 5th divisions were excellent troops according to M&A, since they were from regular army divisions and were not recent conscripts. They were based at Mush. The rest were for the defense of Bitlis (M&A do not say where exactly they were positioned, except "to the south of Lake Van"). There was also the 2nd calvery division (stationed between the Murat Su and the lake) and the 37th division (which held the region around Kop).

During february and march 1915 the three army corps that had been decimated at Sarikamish were secretly reorganised and brought up to strength, and in May three divisions of IX corps were secretly moved south to Hinis.

This brought the total number of troops facing the Russian advance in June-July 1915 to 8 divisions and over 70,000 men according to M&A. All of which proves that there were not "no sizeable Turkish army units left"!

[bell-the-cat]

They don't give references to each point. However, in the bibliography, for this part of the war they refer to "Buyuk Harpte Şark Cephesinde, Sag Kanad HArekati Murat, Van-golu Havzasinda Turk Rus Suvarilerinim Operatif Hedefleri 1914 Ekim-20 Agustos 1915". By Col. R. Balkan, Istanbul 1946.