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Reperation? Ok but How much?

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  • Reperation? Ok but How much?

    How much reperation should Turkey pay to the Armenian Families suffered from 1915 events?

  • #2
    Originally posted by MichealDuglas
    How much reperation should Turkey pay to the Armenian Families suffered from 1915 events?
    I have read a study estemating the number ... but before I post the number and details may I ask why you are asking this question ?

    Comment


    • #3
      I also know that the figures do exist.

      Regardless, the precedent has already been set for such things and that can give you a pretty good idea on what turkey can look foreward to. To that you'll have to add interests and penalties such as late fees, plus all the property damage.

      Comment


      • #4
        U.S. Armenians ramp up calls for Turkey to make reparations

        "All truth passes through three stages:
        First, it is ridiculed;
        Second, it is violently opposed; and
        Third, it is accepted as self-evident."

        Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

        Comment


        • #5
          Here are some exerptes from the Versailles treaty and examples of what turkey should have paid to Armenia in reperations since they lost the war.

          Peace Treaty of Versailles
          Articles 231-247 and Annexes
          Reparations


          ARTICLE 235
          Germany shall pay in such installments and in such manner (whether in gold, commodities, ships, securities or otherwise) as the Reparation Commission may fix, during 1919, 1920 and the first four months Of 1921 , the equivalent of 20,000,000,000 gold marks.

          ARTICLE 238.
          In addition to the payments mentioned above Germany shall effect, in accordance with the procedure laid down by the Reparation Commission, restitution in cash of cash taken away, seized or sequestrated, and also restitution of animals, objects of every nature and securities taken away, seized or sequestrated, in the cases in which it proves possible to identify them in territory belonging to Germany or her allies.

          ARTICLE 243

          The following shall be reckoned as credits to Germany in respect of her reparation obligations:...

          In no case, however, shall credit be given for property restored in accordance with Article 238 of the present Part.

          ANNEX I.

          Compensation may be claimed from Germany under Article 232 above in respect of the total damage under the following categories:

          (l) Damage to injured persons and to surviving dependents by personal injury to or death of civilians caused by acts of war, including bombardments or other attacks on land, on sea, or from the air, and all the direct consequences thereof, and of all operations of war by the two groups of belligerents wherever arising.

          (2) Damage caused by Germany or her allies to civilian victims of acts of cruelty, violence or maltreatment (including injuries to life or health as a consequence of imprisonment, deportation, internment or evacuation, of exposure at sea or of being forced to labour), wherever arising, and to the surviving dependents of such victims.

          (3) Damage caused by Germany or her allies in their own territory or in occupied or invaded territory to civilian victims of all acts injurious to health or capacity to work, or to honour, as well as to the surviving dependents of such victims.

          (4) Damage caused by any kind of maltreatment of prisoners of war.

          (5) As damage caused to the peoples of the Allied and Associated Powers, all pensions and compensation in the nature of pensions to naval and military victims of war (including members of the air force), whether mutilated, wounded, sick or invalided, and to the dependents of such victims, the amount due to the Allied and Associated Governments being calculated for each of them as being the capitalised cost of such pensions and compensation at the date of the coming into force of the present Treaty on the basis of the scales in force in France at such date.

          (6) The cost of assistance by the Government of the Allied and Associated Powers to prisoners of war and to their families and dependents.

          (7) Allowances by the Governments of the Allied and Associated Powers to the families and dependents of mobilised persons or persons serving with the forces, the amount due to them for each calendar year in which hostilities occurred being calculated for each Government on the basis of the average scale for such payments in force in France during that year.

          (8) Damage caused to civilians by being forced by Germany or her allies to labour without just remuneration.

          (9) Damage in respect of all property wherever situated belonging to any of the Allied or Associated States or their nationals, with the exception of naval and military works or materials, which has been carried off, seized, injured or destroyed by the acts of Germany or her allies on land, on sea or from the air, or damage directly in consequence of hostilities or of any operations of war.

          (10) Damage in the form of levies, fines and other similar exactions imposed by Germany or her allies upon the civilian population.

          ANNEX II.
          (1) To be issued forthwith, 20,000,000,000 Marks gold bearer bonds, payable not later than May l, 1921, without interest. There shall be specially applied towards the amortisation of these bonds the payments which Germany is pledged to make in conformity with Article 235, after deduction of the sums used for the reimbursement of expenses of the armies of occupation and for payment of foodstuffs and raw materials. Such bonds as have not been redeemed by May l, 1921, shall then be exchanged for new bonds of the same type as those provided for below (paragraph l2, C, (2).

          (2) To be issued forthwith, further 40,000,000,000 Marks gold bearer bonds, bearing interest at 2-1/2 per cent. per annum between 1921 and l926, and thereafter at 5 per cent. per annum with an additional l per cent. for amortisation beginning in 1926 on the whole amount of the issue.

          (3) To be delivered forthwith a covering undertaking in writing to issue when, but not until, the Commission is satisfied that Germany can meet such interest and sinking fund obligations, a further installment of 40,000,000,000 Marks gold 5 per cent. bearer bonds, the time and mode of payment of principal and interest to be determined by the Commission.

          (e) The damage for repairing, reconstructing and rebuilding property in the invaded and devastated districts, including reinstallation of furniture, machinery and other equipment, will be calculated according to the cost at the dates when the work is done.

          19.
          Payments required to be made in gold or its equivalent on account of the proved claims of the Allied and Associated Powers may at any time be accepted by the Commission in the form of chattels, properties, commodities, businesses, rights, concessions within or without German territory, ships, bonds, shares or securities of any kind, or currencies of Germany or other States, the value of such substitutes for good being fixed at a fair and just amount by the Commission itself.

          2.
          (a) Animals, machinery, equipment, tools and like articles of a commercial character, which have been seized, consumed or destroyed by Germany or destroyed in direct consequence of military operations, and which such Governments, for the purpose of meeting immediate and urgent needs, desire to have replaced by animals and articles of the same nature which are in being in German territory at the date of the coming into force of the present Treaty;

          (b) Reconstruction materials (stones, bricks, refractory bricks, tiles, wood, window-glass, steel, lime, cement, etc.), machinery, heating apparatus, furniture and like articles of a commercial character which the said Governments desire to have produced and manufactured in Germany and delivered to them to permit of the restoration of the invaded areas.


          The German Government undertakes to deliver the materials, articles and animals as specified in the said communication, and the interested Allied and Associated Governments severally agree to accept the same, provided they conform to the specification given, or are not, in the judgment of the Commission, unfit to be utilised in the work of reparation.

          5.

          The Commission shall determine the value to be attributed to the materials, articles and animals to be delivered in accordance with the foregoing, and the Allied or Associated Power receiving the same agrees to be charged with such value, and the amount thereof shall be treated as a payment by Germany to be divided in accordance with Article 237 of this Part of the present Treaty.

          In cases where the right to require physical restoration as above provided is exercised, the Commission shall ensure that the amount to be credited against the reparation obligation of Germany shall be the fair value of work done or materials supplied by Germany, and that the claim made by the interested Power in respect of the damage so repaired by physical restoration shall be discharged to the extent of the proportion which the damage thus repaired bears to the whole of the damage thus claimed for.

          6.

          As an immediate advance on account of the animals referred to in paragraph 2 (a) above, Germany undertakes to deliver in equal monthly installments in the three months following the coming into force of the present Treaty the following quantities of live stock:

          (1) To the French Government.

          500 stallions (3 to 7 years);

          30,000 fillies and mares (18 months to 7 years), type: Ardennais, Boulonnais or Belgian;

          2,000 bulls (18 months to 3 years);

          90,000 milch cows (2 to 6 years);

          1,000 rams;

          100,000 sheep;

          10,000 goats.

          (2) To the Belgian Government.

          200 stallions (3 to 7 years), large Belgian type;

          5,000 mares (3 to 7 years), large Belgian type;

          5,000 fillies (18 months to 3 years), large Belgian type;

          2,000 bulls (18 months to 3 years);

          50,000 milch cows (2 to 6 years);

          40,000 heifers;

          200 rams;

          20,000 Sheep;

          15,000 sows.

          The animals delivered shall be of average health and condition.

          To the extent that animals so delivered cannot be identified as animals taken away or seized, the value of such animals shall be credited against the reparation obligations of Germany in accordance with paragraph 5 of this Annex.

          ANNEX V.

          1.

          Germany accords the following options for the delivery of coal and derivatives of coal to the undermentioned signatories of the present Treaty.

          2.
          Germany undertakes to deliver to France seven million tons of coal per year for ten years. In addition, Germany undertakes to deliver to France annually for a period not exceeding ten years an amount of coal equal to the difference between the annual production before the war of the coal mines of the Nord and Pas de Calais, destroyed as a result of the war, and the production of the mines of the same area during the years in question: such delivery not to exceed twenty million tons in any one year of the first five years, and eight million tons in any one year of the succeeding five years.

          It is understood that due diligence will be exercised in the restoration of the destroyed mines in the Nord and the Pas de Calais.

          3.
          Germany undertakes to deliver to Belgium eight million tons of coal annually for ten years.

          4.
          Germany undertakes to deliver to Italy up to the following . quantities of coal:

          July 1919 to June 1920 4-1/2 million tons,
          1920 *1921 6
          1921 *1922 7-1/2
          1922 *1923 8
          1923 *1924 and each of the following five years 8-1/2

          8.
          Germany undertakes to deliver to France, and to transport to the French frontier by rail or by water, the following products, during each of the three years following the coming into force of this Treaty:

          Benzol 35,000 tons.

          Coal tar 50,000 tons

          Sulphate of ammonia 30,000 tons.

          All or part of the coal tar may, at the option of the French Government, be replaced by corresponding quantities of products of distillation, such as light oils, heavy oils, anthracene, napthalene or pitch

          ANNEX VI.

          1.
          Germany accords to the Reparation Commission an option to require as part of reparation the delivery by Germany of such quantities and kinds of dyestuffs and chemical drugs as the Commission may designate, not exceeding 50 per cent. of the total stock of each and every kind of dyestuff and chemical drug in Germany or under German control at the date of the coming into force of the present Treaty.

          ARTICLE 247.

          Germany undertakes to furnish to the University of Louvain, within three months after a request made by it and transmitted through the intervention of the Reparation Commission, manuscripts, incunabula, printed books, maps and objects of collection corresponding in number and value to those destroyed in the burning by Germany of the Library of Louvain. All details regarding such replacement will be determined by the Reparation Commission.

          Germany undertakes to deliver to Belgium, through the Reparation Commission, within six months of the coming into force of the present Treaty, in order to enable Belgium to reconstitute two great artistic works:

          (1) The leaves of the triptych of the Mystic Lamb painted by the Van Eyck brothers, formerly in the Church of St. Bavon at Ghent, now in the Berlin Museum;

          (2) The leaves of the triptych of the Last Supper, painted by Dierick Bouts, formerly in the Church of St. Peter at Louvain, two of which are now in the Berlin Museum and two in the Old Pinakothek at Munich.



          So that should give you some idea of how it works and as you can see, just about everything is thought of and considered, so getting out of paying isn't going to be easy or as simple as saying, "We have no money."

          BTW, if you read carefully enough. The returning of stolen or ceased property cannot be considered as reperation.

          Comment


          • #6
            Contrary to what some here believe or claim and even oppose.

            From Gavur's article.

            U.S. Armenians ramp up calls for Turkey to make reparations

            a simple apology for the deaths of an estimated 1.5 million people wouldn't be enough for many in the Armenian community.

            They want land and reparations.

            Armenians say Turkey should pay reparations, too.

            At an annual protest last Monday in front of the Turkish consulate in Los Angeles, the crowd of about 3,000 demonstrators didn't support more trade with Turkey.

            In fact, they carried signs calling for a boycott of Turkish goods.

            Glendale school board member Greg Krikorian, who is of Armenian descent and stood with the protesters, echoed the demand.

            "We not only want recognition of the genocide, we demand Mount Ararat back and our homeland back."

            "There's no question that part of the price tag of, if you will, the re-emergence of Germany into the family of nations is they had to find a way for reparations and restitutions to the survivors."

            Many Armenian-Americans expect the same from Turkey.

            Richard Hovannisian, a professor at University of California, Los Angeles, and chairman of modern Armenian history at the school. "What I do believe is that there have to be certain acts of contrition and restitution on the Turkish side."

            Thanks Gavur!

            Comment


            • #7
              Yeah try to collect!
              "All truth passes through three stages:
              First, it is ridiculed;
              Second, it is violently opposed; and
              Third, it is accepted as self-evident."

              Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

              Comment


              • #8
                We already know of your defeatist attitude, but why you're hell bent on fighting with Armenians that want to at least try to collect what we are legally and morally entitled to, is beyond me.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Give a simple figure

                  Dont write long paragraphs, tell me a single amount for all the suffered Armenians.
                  Turkey can pay reparation by instalments one day and can apologize officially but cannot recognize AG and nor offer land.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    In my personal opinion, Reparations (and any $$$ estimates) should be kept out of the discussion catagorically, until we achieve recognition. If recognition is reached with a $$$ amount as the contingency, it isn't recognition for the right reasons. Furthermore, I don't think myself, or my peers are qualified to put a $$$ amount on the damage done to the victims, including the current state of the nation...

                    Comment

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