One thing I don't understand about this forum...

[ozdemir]

Why do you let Genocide denialists post here? I mean I post regularly on various Jewish forums and as soon as someone starts denying the Holocaust they are gone. Why can't you do the same, I mean the name of the forum is AG.com?

Yes we can see what the forum is about but 'theres two sides to every story' as they say. Do you hold a monoploy on the 'truth' ?...you never know open forums may teach you something new.

[Hovik]

Yes we can see what the forum is about but 'theres two sides to every story' as they say. Do you hold a monoploy on the 'truth' ?...you never know open forums may teach you something new.

Lets convince the Jewish forums to hang Nazi flags on their greeting pages, you never know, you might be able to learn something from Nazi members right?

Ozdemir, you obviously know little to nothing about Genocide in general. There are NOT "TWO SIDES" to Genocide. There is one side. (Not to mention we have 100's of un-biased eyewitness accounts supporting our claim, and you have - NONE)

Here is what I am going to do for you. Turkeys biggest allies the Jews, have a large number of Genocide / Holocaust scholars who are experts on the subject (not to say that other nations don't have, but we'll use Turkey's allies just for fun) here is what the many Jews who compose the ASSOCIATION OF GENOCIDE SCHOLARS, have to say about your above statement, be careful to read the bold statement(s) especially on your "2 sides to a story" assertion :

About Genocide Denial,
by Deborah Lipstadt, Dorot Professor of Modern Jewish Studies at Emory University, a statement from Concerned Writers and Scholars

About the moral issue of genocide denial, the country's leading scholar on Holocaust and genocide denial, Deborah Lipstadt, Dorot Professor of Modern Jewish Studies at Emory University, has written in conjunction with a dozen other leading genocide scholars and intellectuals:
Denial of genocide--whether that of the Turks against Armenians or the Nazis against Jews--is not an act of historical reinterpretation. Rather, it sows confusion by appearing to be engaged in a genuine scholarly effort. Those who deny genocide always dismiss the abundance of documents and testimony as contrived or coerced, or as forgeries and falsehoods. Free speech does not guarantee the deniers the right to be treated as the "other" side of a legitimate debate when there is no credible "other side;" nor does it guarantee the deniers space in the classroom or curriculum, or in any other forum.
Genocide denial is an insidious form of intellectual and moral degradation and a violation of what a university represents.
Denial of genocide strives to reshape history in order to demonize the victims and rehabilitate the perpetrators. Denial of genocide is the final stage of genocide; it is what Elie Wiesel has called a "double killing." Denial murders the dignity of the survivors and seeks to destroy the remembrance of the crime.
William Styron, Writer; Arthur Miller, Writer; Susan Sontag, Writer; Yehuda Bauer, Professor of Holocaust Studies, Hebrew University; Robert N, Bellah, Elliot Professor of Sociology, University of California, Berkeley; Jean Bethke Elshtain, Rockefeller Professor of Social and Political Ethics, University of Chicago Divinity School; Robert Jay Lifton, Distinguished Professor of Psychiatry and Psychology, CUNY Graduate Center; Roger Smith, Professor of Government and President of the Association of Genocide Scholars.
from A Statement by Concerned Writers and Scholars, 1996.



Association of Genocide Scholars
Department of Government
College of William and Mary
Williamsburg, Virginia 23187-8795 USA
757/221-3038, Fax 757/221-1868


Executive Board
Roger W. Smith, President
Frank Chalk, Vice President
Jack Nusen Porter, Vice President
Steven L. Jacobs, Treasurer
The Armenian Genocide Resolution Unanimously Passed By The Association of Genocide Scholars of North America
The Armenian Genocide Resolution was unanimously passed at the Association of Genocide Scholars' conference in Montreal on June 13, 1997.



Resolution

That this assembly of the Association of Genocide Scholars in its conference held in Montreal, June 11-13, 1997, reaffirms that the mass murder of over a million Armenians in Turkey in 1915 is a case of genocide which conforms to the statutes of the United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide. It further condemns the denial of the Armenian Genocide by the Turkish government and its official and unofficial agents and supporters.
Among the prominent scholars who supported the resolution were: Roger W. Smith (College of William & Mary; President of AGS); Israel Charny (Hebrew University, Jerusalem); Helen Fein, Past President AGS); Frank Chalk (Concordia University, Montreal); Ben Kiernan (Yale University); Anthony Oberschall (University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill); Mark Levene (Warwick University, UK); Rhoda Howard (McMaster University, Canada), Michael Freeman (Essex University, UK), Gunnar Heinsohn (Bremen University, Germany)
The Association of Genocide scholars is an international, inter-disciplinary, non-partisan organization dedicated to the understanding and prevention of Genocide. The Association is an affiliate of The Institute For the Study of Genocide, New York, Dr. Helen Fein, Executive Director.

[Kharpert]

Yes we can see what the forum is about but 'theres two sides to every story' as they say. Do you hold a monoploy on the 'truth' ?...you never know open forums may teach you something new.

Did it ever occur to you that the "other side of the story" might be wrong?

[ozdemir]

Lets convince the Jewish forums to hang Nazi flags on their greeting pages, you never know, you might be able to learn something from Nazi members right?

Ozdemir, you obviously know little to nothing about Genocide in general. There are NOT "TWO SIDES" to Genocide. There is one side. (Not to mention we have 100's of un-biased eyewitness accounts supporting our claim, and you have - NONE)

Here is what I am going to do for you. Turkeys biggest allies the Jews, have a large number of Genocide / Holocaust scholars who are experts on the subject (not to say that other nations don't have, but we'll use Turkey's allies just for fun) here is what the many Jews who compose the ASSOCIATION OF GENOCIDE SCHOLARS, have to say about your above statement, be careful to read the bold statement(s) especially on your "2 sides to a story" assertion :

Dear Hovick and others , firstly I do not pretend to know as much about this issue as perhaps others on this forum. I am, however, smart enough to not look at things from one side...either side. As a Turk living much of my life O/S I joined this forum to learn. To learn what exactly is being said and argued. I did not want to just hear the Turkish official line . I am 38 years old and can honestly say to you that throughout my life I have never heard or witnessed any antagonism against Armenians by friends and relatives of Turkish background or by grandparents when I would regularly visit back in Turkey. I and many like me are in a similar position in the Turksih Community. I am shocked to read some of the postings on this forum. I dont think i have heard so much hatred in my life. I invite all of us to be civil to each other and not insult each others intelligence. Please . You have either rational debate or you have nothing . I naturally choose the former. Judging by the postings of some on this site I am not confident about their good intentions.

My view is that even if half of what the Armenian camp alleges is true then denial is unacceptable and Armenians are , in my view , entitled to persue this cause. I would hate to think that anything as such could of ever happened. Infact, I can honestly say that you will even have support form many Turks as well. Despite the popular view among Armenians ,most Turks are like you and have values like you and would not place a higher value on a Turkish life above an Armenian or other life. But naturally we need to understand and then be satisfied that there is reasonable evidence to prove genocide. I do not imply that there is not sufficient evidence either....but as you all know there is also ample disagreement about this matter. Some of the contributors here dont deserve a serious a response....filled with bias , hatred and a general posture of disregard and venom towards anyone else but their cause. These people exist on both sides of the debate. However you and some others i am keen to learn from and respect the arguments and comments you make. Moving on i have some questions which bother me on this issue :
1) Why do many Armenians not understand and appreciate that the Ottoman rule at the time is seperate from the general Turkish Community of its day, Turks who were no more than 'Indians' with little to no link with decision making in relation to any issue or policies of the Empire? Infact Armenians were considered 'brothers' and valued members of the community who lived and worked shoulder to shoulder with the average Turk.. Sweeping statements by many Armenians that all Turks are enemies/barbarians don't make sense. Why is there so much personal attack on Turks? How is this an example of civility and respect to others.
2)Following on from the above why does Armenia feel that The Republic of Turkey is accountable for the Ottoman Empire and its leadership/actions from whom the Turks broke away from themselves to the establish a democratic rule once and for all .Do we hold a child accountable for the actions or inactions of its parent. Seems to go against the rule of law and common sense.
3)Why was is not sufficient to Armenians that the trials of Ottoman officials in Malta acquited them of the charges of genocide..... at a time when the matter was fresh and evidence was more readily avialable?
3)Why does Armenia not agree to a once and for all ' deep analysis and fact finding mission/forum' managed by an international panel of accredited historians/academics chosen by an independent world body to root out the facts ....worts and all. Most if not all Turks would be ready accept the findings of such a body. Given that nor I OR YOU were there to witness these events as alleged....why is this option not a reasonable objective of both sides.
4) Why do Armenians claim to be the only victims during this period.....why are all Armenian deaths seen as those of innocent civilians and those deaths by Turks as those of a military status. That is , is it not conceivable that Armenians also killed many innocent Turkish civilians as well during their struggle to establish their share of the collapsing Ottoman Empire in Anatolia.

Genocide is unaccptable without exception. Denial, once facts are establsihed independently is also unacceptable .But the right of reply is a basic human right as well.

Cheers .

[imported_Hellektor]

Prove Your Sincerity

...I am shocked to read some of the postings on this forum. I dont think i have heard so much hatred in my life.

Every time I see a post like this, I give the poster the benefit of the doubt.
Now, the problem is, though you sound sincere, you repeat the same parrot song we've heard a million times.

I'll give you a chance.
First, please check this out (note that I used the magic word).
Please watch it to the end.
This region is a part of Armenia. It was treacherously given to the Turks in 1921 to provide an artificial border between Turkey and fake "Azerbaijan", a bogus state created on Armenian territory in 1918 for pan-Turkist purposes.

Are you still here?
Did you watch the clip?
(Assuming you did)
Now tell me, if you REALLY are sincere:

Aren't you shocked to see such indescribable abhorrence?
Have you seen more hatred in your life?
Can you cite a nation in this day and age, when the least relic from even 100 years ago is cherished so dearly, who destroys centuries old human heritage with this savagery?

Did you know this region had a 54% Armenian majority, despite centuries of harassment, slaughter and subjugation?

Did you know that this region was ethnically cleansed in Soviet era under the nose of Soviet leaders?

Don't you think when an inhuman bunch like this is destroying centuries old human heritage, has the purpose of erasing the traces of the indigenous people of the region and fake their own "history"?

Don't you see its the soldiers who are carrying out this atrocity which proves the vandalism is state planned?

Doesn't this prove they committed genocide?

Doesn't this prove the are in the wrong?

Don't we have the right to despise these Human Culture deficiency Viruses?

Can a civilized human being consider them human beings?

[ozdemir]

Hellektor ,

i watched the clip as you asked. Though it was difficult to make out what was really happening and who the people were...I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on what was happening and by whom. On that basis naturally something like this is disturbing and unacceptable and to say the least. Respect for the dead and the community it represents is a requirement of humanity and civility. It is difficult for me to say much more but unfortunately these types of stupid acts are not isolated to the Azeris.....just look at what happened in Serbia in the recent past .This happened in the Middle of CIVILISED EUROPE . Unfortunately I have also viewed and heard of some pretty horrific and barbaric acts comitted by Armenians as well. I think the condition of war between communities brings out the very ugly in some.......this is not to accept it but as an observation only.

I sympathise with the emotion in your posting and frankly things like these forces one to question the human condition generally. I say this because examples of similar and even worse acts are littered throughout history which have been perpatrated by many many different states/communities of all religions against others in the name of whatever. Pretty sick stuff.

Having said this I cant in all honesty say that I accept that this proves genocide but I take your point. I hope you take mine. I would really apprecaite your views on the questions I had originally asked.

cheers.

[HayerMiacek]

I have also viewed and heard of some pretty horrific and barbaric acts comitted by Armenians as well. I think the condition of war between communities brings out the very ugly in some.......this is not to accept it but as an observation only.

Not with the Khojali story again, listen dumb dumb, both people died during the Karbagh war, those pictures that show dead Azeri civilians that are used so much for progaganda purposes by Azerbaijan is total BS, they are Armenian civilians there too, but they say they are all Azeri. I can show you thousands of pictures and videos of dead Armenians killied by Azeris, but what is the point?

Now, what happened to Armenians during 1915 was not war, there was no country named Armenia who declared war on the Ottoman Turkey. We were the minorities there and were singled out and killed.

Having said this I cant in all honesty say that I accept that this proves genocide but I take your point. I hope you take mine. I would really apprecaite your views on the questions I had originally asked.

cheers.

Why are you so stupid and ignorant? Can't you read that virtually ALL Genocide scholars and historians accept the Armenian Genocide? Why are you so blinded? Isn't that all you say, "lets leave this issue to historians"? Well, guess what they all do affirm it, well except the few corrupted ones, like Lewis, Lewy, McCarthy, who all were proven to receive grants from Turkish Universities and the Turkish Government.

Here read this thread:

http://www.armeniangenocide.com/foru...ead.php?t=1754

[HayerMiacek]

International Affirmation of the Armenian Genocide

Public Petitions

Statement by 126 Holocaust Scholars, Holders of Academic Chairs, and Directors of Holocaust Research and Studies Centers

March 7, 2000

View image of the petition appeared in New York Times, June 9, 2000.

126 HOLOCAUST SCHOLARS AFFIRM THE INCONTESTABLE FACT OF THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE AND URGE WESTERN DEMOCRACIES TO OFFICIALLY RECOGNIZE IT

At the Thirtieth Anniversary of the Scholar's Conference on the Holocaust and the Churches Convening at St. Joseph University, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, March 3-7, 2000, one hundred twenty-six Holocaust Scholars, holders of Academic Chairs and Directors of Holocaust Research and Studies Centers, participants of the Conference, signed a statement affirming that the World War I Armenian Genocide is an incontestable historical fact and accordingly urge the governments of Western democracies to likewise recognize it as such. The petitioners, among whom is Nobel Laureate for Peace Elie Wiesel, who was the keynote speaker at the conference, also asked the Western Democracies to urge the Government and Parliament of Turkey to finally come to terms with a dark chapter of Ottoman-Turkish history and to recognize the Armenian Genocide. This would provide an invaluable impetus to the process of the democratization of Turkey.

Below is a partial list of the signatories:



Prof. Yehuda Bauer
Distinguished Professor
Hebrew University
Director, The International Institute of Holocaust Research
Yad Vashem, Jerusalem

Prof. Israel Charny, Director
Institute of the Holocaust and Genocide, Jerusalem
Professor at the Hebrew University,
Editor-in-Chief of The Encyclopedia of Genocide

Prof. Ward Churchill
Ethnic Studies
The University of Colorado, Boulder

Prof. Stephen Feinstein, Director
Center for Holocaust and Genocide Studies
University of Minnesota

Prof. Saul Friedman, Director
Holocaust and Jewish Studies
Youngston State University, Ohio

Prof. Edward Gaffney
Valparaiso University Law School

Prof. Zev Garber
Los Angeles Valley College

Prof. Dorota Glowacka
University of King's Collage
Halifax, Nova Scotia

Dr. Irving Greenberg, President
Jewish Life Network

Prof. Herbert Hirsch
Virginia Commonwealth University

Prof. Irving L. Horowitz
Hannah Arendt Distinguished Professor
Rutgers University, NJ

Rabbi Dr. Steve Jacobs
Temple Sinai Shalom
Huntsville, Alabama
Associate Editor of The Encyclopedia of Genocide

Prof. Steven Katz
Distinguish Professor
Director, Center for Judaic Studies
Boston University




Prof. Richard Libowitz
Temple University

Dr. Marcia Littell
Stockton College
Exec. Director, Scholars' Conference
On the Holocaust and the Churches

Franklin Littell
Emeritus Professor
Temple University

Prof. Hubert G. Locke
Washington University
Co-founder of the Annual Scholar's Conference
On the Holocaust and the Churches

Dr. Elizabeth Maxwell
Executive Director of the International Scholarly
Conference on the Holocaust, London, England

Prof. Erik Markusen
Southwest State University, MN

Prof. Saul Mendlowitz
Dag Hammerskjold Distinguished Professor
of International Law
Rutgers University

Prof. Jack Needle, Director
Center for Holocaust Studies
Brookdale Community College
Lincroft, NJ

Dr. Philip Rosen, Director
Holocaust Education Center of the Delaware Valley

Prof. Alan S, Rosenbaum
Dept. of Philosophy
Cleveland State University

William L. Shulman, President
Association of Holocaust Organizations City University of New York

Prof. Samuel Totten
The University of Arkansas
Assoc. Editor of The Encyclopedia of Genocide

Prof. Elie Wiesel
Andrew W. Mellon Professor in the Humanities
Boston University
Founding Chairman of the United States
Holocaust Memorial Council
Nobel Laureate for Peace

[imported_Hellektor]

Scambug!

Not with the Khojali story again, listen dumb dumb, both people died during the Karbagh war, those pictures that show dead Azeri civilians that are used so much for progaganda purposes by Azerbaijan is total BS, they are Armenian civilians there too, but they say they are all Azeri. I can show you thousands of pictures and videos of dead Armenians killied by Azeris, but what is the point?

The Khojaly scam has already been exposed. It was the "Azeris" who did it.
Their presidents say it was they who did it.
Whoever pesters us with the insignificant Khojaly incident is behaving like an annoying insect.

Whoever regurgitates the Khojaly scam is a scambug.

Don't be a scambug.
First answer this question:
Why did you kill Chingiz Mustafayev?

[imported_Hellektor]

Hellektor ,

i watched the clip as you asked. Though it was difficult to make out what was really happening and who the people were...I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on what was happening and by whom.

Although I don't expect you to understand this, I find this statement of yours extremely offensive, insensitive and sarcastic. Had it not been for the next part of your post I would have refrained from responding or would have pasted a passage from my mega text file that you would find offensive! This I say not in a belligerent attitude, it's just to clarify my stand-point.

No one, and I mean NO ONE is allowed near the site.
It's beyond a shadow, no photon of a doubt that the "Azeri" army is committing this horrific monstrosity, following the orders of the "government" of this fake state.
Your brainwash does not allow you to see this unquestionable FACT.

Were it possible to make a time machine and film the slaughter and suffering of the Armenians during Ottoman rule, you would still reject it as "doubtful".

On that basis naturally something like this is disturbing and unacceptable and to say the least. Respect for the dead and the community it represents is a requirement of humanity and civility. It is difficult for me to say much more but unfortunately these types of stupid acts are not isolated to the Azeris.....

Thumbs up for the sympathy expressed! It's refreshing and definitely constructive. I only hope it comes from your heart and it's not just lip-service. Don't get me wrong, I think you agree there are enough posts from Turks who justify my caution if not skepticism.
BTW, it's in no way a stupid act. This is a calculated act of genocide that goes unpunished by the "international" community.

just look at what happened in Serbia in the recent past .This happened in the Middle of CIVILISED EUROPE . Unfortunately I have also viewed and heard of some pretty horrific and barbaric acts comitted by Armenians as well. I think the condition of war between communities brings out the very ugly in some.......this is not to accept it but as an observation only.

I sympathise with the emotion in your posting and frankly things like these forces one to question the human condition generally. I say this because examples of similar and even worse acts are littered throughout history which have been perpatrated by many many different states/communities of all religions against others in the name of whatever. Pretty sick stuff.

With all respect, I am not capable of equating anything to the TOTAL destruction of EVERY SINGLE Armenian monument in "Azeri" occupied Armenian land to erase ALL evidence of the indigenous people of the region and fake a nonsensical "history". This is certainly unique. This is an act of cultural genocide. This goes beyond acts of hate or vandalism. It's state sponsored.
As an example, know that about 27000 monuments: stone-crosses, cemeteries, churches, monasteries, etc. are feared destroyed in Nakhijevan only.

The worst thing about it is the shameless and total media blackout of the immoral, Zionist/Freemason world. Believe me it angers me about as much as the acts themselves.

Having said this I cant in all honesty say that I accept that this proves genocide but I take your point. I hope you take mine. I would really apprecaite your views on the questions I had originally asked.

cheers.

Well, I really don't know what it takes for a Turk to be convinced of the fact that when a bunch of savages wipe every trace of the indigenous people of an area they occupy is proof of genocide. Nothing more, nothing less.

All of this is gone forever... (The page redirects to a different page on armeniapedia upon loading. Be sure to hit escape/stop on your browser when last pic is loaded.)

Genocide in Broad Daylight

Nakhijevan, December 2005 not 1905 or 1915.
Destruction of the ancient Jugha cemetery by "Azeri" beasts
The murderer gets rid of the evidence of the existence of the victim.