One thing I don't understand about this forum...

[ozdemir]

Although I don't expect you to understand this, I find this statement of yours extremely offensive, insensitive and sarcastic. Had it not been for the next part of your post I would have refrained from responding or would have pasted a passage from my mega text file that you would find offensive! This I say not in a belligerent attitude, it's just to clarify my stand-point.

No one, and I mean NO ONE is allowed near the site.
It's beyond a shadow, no photon of a doubt that the "Azeri" army is committing this horrific monstrosity, following the orders of the "government" of this fake state.
Your brainwash does not allow you to see this unquestionable FACT.

Were it possible to make a time machine and film the slaughter and suffering of the Armenians during Ottoman rule, you would still reject it as "doubtful".


Thumbs up for the sympathy expressed! It's refreshing and definitely constructive. I only hope it comes from your heart and it's not just lip-service. Don't get me wrong, I think you agree there are enough posts from Turks who justify my caution if not skepticism.
BTW, it's in no way a stupid act. This is a calculated act of genocide that goes unpunished by the "international" community.


With all respect, I am not capable of equating anything to the TOTAL destruction of EVERY SINGLE Armenian monument in "Azeri" occupied Armenian land to erase ALL evidence of the indigenous people of the region and fake a nonsensical "history". This is certainly unique. This is an act of cultural genocide. This goes beyond acts of hate or vandalism. It's state sponsored.
As an example, know that about 27000 monuments: stone-crosses, cemeteries, churches, monasteries, etc. are feared destroyed in Nakhijevan only.

The worst thing about it is the shameless and total media blackout of the immoral, Zionist/Freemason world. Believe me it angers me about as much as the acts themselves.


Well, I really don't know what it takes for a Turk to be convinced of the fact that when a bunch of savages wipe every trace of the indigenous people of an area they occupy is proof of genocide. Nothing more, nothing less.

All of this is gone forever... (The page redirects to a different page on armeniapedia upon loading. Be sure to hit escape/stop on your browser when last pic is loaded.)

Genocide in Broad Daylight

Nakhijevan, December 2005 not 1905 or 1915.
Destruction of the ancient Jugha cemetery by "Azeri" beasts
The murderer gets rid of the evidence of the existence of the victim.

thanks.......if i was brainwahed i wouldnt be wasting my time in this forum. I can only tell you that i am sincere //its up to you to believe it or not. I have no intension of offending but i must say as i see things. My sympathy expressed is for those who persihed....its not to please anyone in this forum . Anyway.....Does anyone intend to have a go at responding to my questions in my original post ?????

[ozdemir]

Not with the Khojali story again, listen dumb dumb, both people died during the Karbagh war, those pictures that show dead Azeri civilians that are used so much for progaganda purposes by Azerbaijan is total BS, they are Armenian civilians there too, but they say they are all Azeri. I can show you thousands of pictures and videos of dead Armenians killied by Azeris, but what is the point?

Now, what happened to Armenians during 1915 was not war, there was no country named Armenia who declared war on the Ottoman Turkey. We were the minorities there and were singled out and killed.




Why are you so stupid and ignorant? Can't you read that virtually ALL Genocide scholars and historians accept the Armenian Genocide? Why are you so blinded? Isn't that all you say, "lets leave this issue to historians"? Well, guess what they all do affirm it, well except the few corrupted ones, like Lewis, Lewy, McCarthy, who all were proven to receive grants from Turkish Universities and the Turkish Government.

Here read this thread:

http://www.armeniangenocide.com/foru...ead.php?t=1754

'Stupid.....dumb dumb.....ignorant'......any chance of a straight forward responce without the crap language......get some lessons in good manners will you ! Your obviously the only smart one around..........NOT.

[phantom]

1) Why do many Armenians not understand and appreciate that the Ottoman rule at the time is seperate from the general Turkish Community of its day, Turks who were no more than 'Indians' with little to no link with decision making in relation to any issue or policies of the Empire? Infact Armenians were considered 'brothers' and valued members of the community who lived and worked shoulder to shoulder with the average Turk.. Sweeping statements by many Armenians that all Turks are enemies/barbarians don't make sense. Why is there so much personal attack on Turks? How is this an example of civility and respect to others.

The answer is that today's Turks have chosen to align themselves with the "Ottoman rule" that exterminated the Armenians rather than align themselves with those normal and simple Turks who were fooled, blackmailed or threatened into being accomplices or turning their backs on their neighbors who were being murdered. You and your compatriots today have a choice: you can either continue to defend the actions of those who murdered our ancestors, or you can join the rest of humanity in condemning them. If you continue to defend the killers, then you really should not expect much sympathy or even civility from us.

2)Following on from the above why does Armenia feel that The Republic of Turkey is accountable for the Ottoman Empire and its leadership/actions from whom the Turks broke away from themselves to the establish a democratic rule once and for all .Do we hold a child accountable for the actions or inactions of its parent. Seems to go against the rule of law and common sense.

The Republic of Turkey has inheritted and benefited from taking over the assets of the Ottoman Empire. You don't take the assets of an entity without also taking on the liabilities of that entity. It's a very simple axiom, and certainly does not go against the rule of law or common sense. Cok kolay digil mi! Her kezin malini murkunu cal, ustune otur, ve ondan sonra de ki biz digildik, Osmanlilardi. That's not the way the law works. Just like how the Republic of Germany was liable to the Jewish people for the liabilities of the Nazis, so is the Republic of Turkey liable to the Armenian people for the liabilities of the Ottoman Empire.

3)Why was is not sufficient to Armenians that the trials of Ottoman officials in Malta acquited them of the charges of genocide..... at a time when the matter was fresh and evidence was more readily avialable?

You're wrong. There were no trials in Malta. The trials never happened. The criminals there were released in an exchange with Britain before there could be any trials. Moreover, why are you ignoring the Military Tribunals in Istanbul in the years 1919 to 1920, where the leaders of the Ottoman Empire were convicted for slaughtering the Armenian and Christian peoples of the Ottoman Empire?

3)Why does Armenia not agree to a once and for all ' deep analysis and fact finding mission/forum' managed by an international panel of accredited historians/academics chosen by an independent world body to root out the facts ....worts and all. Most if not all Turks would be ready accept the findings of such a body. Given that nor I OR YOU were there to witness these events as alleged....why is this option not a reasonable objective of both sides.

How many times are we going to go through this? What was the International Center for Transitional Justice? Wasn't it an international panel of accredited historians/academics chosen by both Turks and Armenians? Moreover, who are all the historians who are saying that it was a Genocide? They are independent, international, and they are experts in this field. Why do you ignore what they have to say? What is the International Association of Genocide Scholars? What is the Institute for Holocaust and Genocide in Jerusalem? Instead of asking why Armenia does not agree to so-called deep analysis, why don't you ask yourself why Turkey ignores all of these independent experts who say it was a Genocide? Armenia rightfully has no interest in playing games with the Turks.

4) Why do Armenians claim to be the only victims during this period.....why are all Armenian deaths seen as those of innocent civilians and those deaths by Turks as those of a military status. That is , is it not conceivable that Armenians also killed many innocent Turkish civilians as well during their struggle to establish their share of the collapsing Ottoman Empire in Anatolia.

We don't claim to be the only victims. We claim to be victims along with the Assyrians and Pontic Greeks, who were also exterminated along with our ancestors. There may have been isolated incidents, almost all of which were in retaliation for the slaughter of our people, but none of them amount to a plan to exterminate a whole ethnic group. There is a vast difference between isolated uprisings, and a state sponsored plan to exterminate one of its own citizen groups. If you can't appreciate the difference between these two things, then there's no point in continuing a conversation.

Genocide is unaccptable without exception. Denial, once facts are establsihed independently is also unacceptable .But the right of reply is a basic human right as well.

Yes, you're right. Where you're wrong, however, is in your view that the facts have not already been independently established. They have been , ad nauseum. Continued denial at this point is just plain immoral.

[phantom]

Hellektor ,

i watched the clip as you asked. Though it was difficult to make out what was really happening and who the people were...I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on what was happening and by whom.

Are you kidding? They're wearing military clothing, and they're sledgehammering our Khackhars? Who do you think those people are, elves from the north pole making toys for Santa Claus? Who do you think those soldiers are: aliens, French, Americans, Russians, maybe they're Mexicans? Please, don't insult our intelligence, or your own.

It is difficult for me to say much more but unfortunately these types of stupid acts are not isolated to the Azeris.....just look at what happened in Serbia in the recent past .This happened in the Middle of CIVILISED EUROPE . Unfortunately I have also viewed and heard of some pretty horrific and barbaric acts comitted by Armenians as well. I think the condition of war between communities brings out the very ugly in some.......this is not to accept it but as an observation only.

I find it a bit disingenuous, and even disturbing, that you brush this off as a "stupid act". This is not a mere stupid act. A stupid act is when you toiletpaper your neighbors front yard, or you steal candy from a store. These khachkars date back over 12 millenia. They are national treasures. Each one of them is completely unique, with no two having the same design. There are hundreds of soldiers video-taped sledgehammering them into small pieces and dumping them into the river. What kind of animals would do something like that, especially when the war between Azerbaijan and Armenia has been under cease fire for 12 years? There's no war, yet they're still bent on erasing all memory of our people being on those lands. Stop making excuses.

[Tongue]

great posts phantom.

[imported_Hellektor]

Thanks phantom

thanks.......if i was brainwahed i wouldnt be wasting my time in this forum. I can only tell you that i am sincere //its up to you to believe it or not. I have no intension of offending but i must say as i see things. My sympathy expressed is for those who persihed....its not to please anyone in this forum .

I did say "Had it not been for the next part of your post I would have refrained from responding or would have pasted a passage from my mega text file that you would find offensive! This I say not in a belligerent attitude, it's just to clarify my stand-point. "

That's why I dealt with your post thoroughly.

Anyway.....Does anyone intend to have a go at responding to my questions in my original post ?????

I was going to treat this thoroughly as well, but phantom has already answered you and has done a hell of a good job.
Here my two cents anyway.
I am preparing my AG FAQ. I'll have to find the time. The questions however, I have listed sometime ago.
I have already pasted the list several times and I'll paste it again in case you missed it.
The questions are what I call tallturkishtale.cum copy/paste garbage.
They are the official Turkish government denial crap that has been treated a million times the last several decades, and many times on this website. Above all, they are an insult to your intelligence. You don't seem as dumb as the questions, I'm sure you were influenced by reading too much denialist propaganda.

Your questions:

Moving on i have some questions which bother me on this issue :
1) Why do many Armenians not understand and appreciate that the Ottoman rule at the time is seperate from the general Turkish Community of its day, Turks who were no more than 'Indians' with little to no link with decision making in relation to any issue or policies of the Empire? Infact Armenians were considered 'brothers' and valued members of the community who lived and worked shoulder to shoulder with the average Turk.. Sweeping statements by many Armenians that all Turks are enemies/barbarians don't make sense. Why is there so much personal attack on Turks? How is this an example of civility and respect to others.
2)Following on from the above why does Armenia feel that The Republic of Turkey is accountable for the Ottoman Empire and its leadership/actions from whom the Turks broke away from themselves to the establish a democratic rule once and for all .Do we hold a child accountable for the actions or inactions of its parent. Seems to go against the rule of law and common sense.
3)Why was is not sufficient to Armenians that the trials of Ottoman officials in Malta acquited them of the charges of genocide..... at a time when the matter was fresh and evidence was more readily avialable?
3)Why does Armenia not agree to a once and for all ' deep analysis and fact finding mission/forum' managed by an international panel of accredited historians/academics chosen by an independent world body to root out the facts ....worts and all. Most if not all Turks would be ready accept the findings of such a body. Given that nor I OR YOU were there to witness these events as alleged....why is this option not a reasonable objective of both sides.
4) Why do Armenians claim to be the only victims during this period.....why are all Armenian deaths seen as those of innocent civilians and those deaths by Turks as those of a military status. That is , is it not conceivable that Armenians also killed many innocent Turkish civilians as well during their struggle to establish their share of the collapsing Ottoman Empire in Anatolia.

Genocide is unaccptable without exception. Denial, once facts are establsihed independently is also unacceptable .But the right of reply is a basic human right as well.

Cheers .

Instead of answering your questions, I'll paste two of my regular statements, which prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it was genocide. For me, had not a single eyewitness and/or survivor account, picture, document, etc. existed it would still be genocide because:

I. Armenians lived in their homeland for thousands of years, then the Turks invaded and after centuries of abuse they decided to empty Armenia of its indigenous inhabitants. As a result no Christian Armenians live in their ancestral home anymore. This is by definition called genocide, end of story.

II. If all those millions of women, children and elderly were armed to their teeth rebels, how come they didn't rebel and walked like sheep to roast in the desert?


Now the list. Those highlighted are the ones that appear in your post: See how much your fascist government has corrupted your minds. That's what I referred to when I mentioned brainwash. It was not to insult you.


The Armenian Genocide Deniers' FAQ:

I. It was war… People died…

II. Ottomans only wanted to relocate the rebels.

III. Turks died as well.

IV. What reason on earth did the Turks have to exterminate the Armenians?

V. Armenians revolted against their “masters”, they got what they deserved.

VI. If the Turks wanted to kill the Armenians why didn’t they kill them where they lived and despite the fact that they were engaged in war they took the expensive decision to relocate the Armenians?

VII. It was the Armenian “terrorists” who killed up to 2.5 million Turks.

VIII. Yes, there were cases of violent attacks but it was not planned.

IX. Armenians lived peacefully in the Ottoman “empire” until one day Armenians betrayed their “masters”.

X. Let’s play the numbers game, Armenians highly exaggerate the number of dead.

XI. There is no comparison between what happened to the Jews and what happened to the Armenians.

XII. Present day Armenia should forget the past and establish ties with its neighbors.

XIII. Leave the subject to historians.

XIV. Let us organize a meeting between historians of the two sides and see who’s right.

XV. Turkey has opened its archives. Why doesn’t Armenia do the same?

XVI. If it was genocide then how come the Armenians in Constantinople were not massacred?

XVII. You have slandered the Turks and have tarnished our honor for a long time, now it’s our turn to attack and expose your “lies”.

XVIII. Armenians are not the indigenous people of “Eastern Anatolia”.

XIX. It was the Ottomans who committed these crimes. Why should the present Turkish state be held responsible?

XX. The countries that have recognized the Armenian Genocide have an agenda.

XXI. No evidence has been found to confirm that it was really genocide.

XXII. The fact that “the Malta Tribunals” were dismissed was because of the absence of evidence. This “proves” there was no genocide.


P.S. The list is by no means exhaustive. I just added the last two points, because they do come back time and again.

You should also know that Talat, Enver, Jemal and Nazim were condemned to death by the court in absentia (they had “fled” to Germany, having taken with them all important CUP archives), so when the Armenian heroes disposed of this garbage and put an end to their miserable existence, they only carried out the sentence issued by the Istanbul court.

[ozdemir]

The answer is that today's Turks have chosen to align themselves with the "Ottoman rule" that exterminated the Armenians rather than align themselves with those normal and simple Turks who were fooled, blackmailed or threatened into being accomplices or turning their backs on their neighbors who were being murdered. You and your compatriots today have a choice: you can either continue to defend the actions of those who murdered our ancestors, or you can join the rest of humanity in condemning them. If you continue to defend the killers, then you really should not expect much sympathy or even civility from us.



The Republic of Turkey has inheritted and benefited from taking over the assets of the Ottoman Empire. You don't take the assets of an entity without also taking on the liabilities of that entity. It's a very simple axiom, and certainly does not go against the rule of law or common sense. Cok kolay digil mi! Her kezin malini murkunu cal, ustune otur, ve ondan sonra de ki biz digildik, Osmanlilardi. That's not the way the law works. Just like how the Republic of Germany was liable to the Jewish people for the liabilities of the Nazis, so is the Republic of Turkey liable to the Armenian people for the liabilities of the Ottoman Empire.




You're wrong. There were no trials in Malta. The trials never happened. The criminals there were released in an exchange with Britain before there could be any trials. Moreover, why are you ignoring the Military Tribunals in Istanbul in the years 1919 to 1920, where the leaders of the Ottoman Empire were convicted for slaughtering the Armenian and Christian peoples of the Ottoman Empire?



How many times are we going to go through this? What was the International Center for Transitional Justice? Wasn't it an international panel of accredited historians/academics chosen by both Turks and Armenians? Moreover, who are all the historians who are saying that it was a Genocide? They are independent, international, and they are experts in this field. Why do you ignore what they have to say? What is the International Association of Genocide Scholars? What is the Institute for Holocaust and Genocide in Jerusalem? Instead of asking why Armenia does not agree to so-called deep analysis, why don't you ask yourself why Turkey ignores all of these independent experts who say it was a Genocide? Armenia rightfully has no interest in playing games with the Turks.



We don't claim to be the only victims. We claim to be victims along with the Assyrians and Pontic Greeks, who were also exterminated along with our ancestors. There may have been isolated incidents, almost all of which were in retaliation for the slaughter of our people, but none of them amount to a plan to exterminate a whole ethnic group. There is a vast difference between isolated uprisings, and a state sponsored plan to exterminate one of its own citizen groups. If you can't appreciate the difference between these two things, then there's no point in continuing a conversation.



Yes, you're right. Where you're wrong, however, is in your view that the facts have not already been independently established. They have been , ad nauseum. Continued denial at this point is just plain immoral.

dear friend.....many thanks....this helps me understand your point of view.

[ozdemir]

Are you kidding? They're wearing military clothing, and they're sledgehammering our Khackhars? Who do you think those people are, elves from the north pole making toys for Santa Claus? Who do you think those soldiers are: aliens, French, Americans, Russians, maybe they're Mexicans? Please, don't insult our intelligence, or your own.



I find it a bit disingenuous, and even disturbing, that you brush this off as a "stupid act". This is not a mere stupid act. A stupid act is when you toiletpaper your neighbors front yard, or you steal candy from a store. These khachkars date back over 12 millenia. They are national treasures. Each one of them is completely unique, with no two having the same design. There are hundreds of soldiers video-taped sledgehammering them into small pieces and dumping them into the river. What kind of animals would do something like that, especially when the war between Azerbaijan and Armenia has been under cease fire for 12 years? There's no war, yet they're still bent on erasing all memory of our people being on those lands. Stop making excuses.

from what i saw..it was not possible to identify who they were .....but i take your point.

[ozdemir]

I did say "Had it not been for the next part of your post I would have refrained from responding or would have pasted a passage from my mega text file that you would find offensive! This I say not in a belligerent attitude, it's just to clarify my stand-point. "

That's why I dealt with your post thoroughly.


I was going to treat this thoroughly as well, but phantom has already answered you and has done a hell of a good job.
Here my two cents anyway.
I am preparing my AG FAQ. I'll have to find the time. The questions however, I have listed sometime ago.
I have already pasted the list several times and I'll paste it again in case you missed it.
The questions are what I call tallturkishtale.cum copy/paste garbage.
They are the official Turkish government denial crap that has been treated a million times the last several decades, and many times on this website. Above all, they are an insult to your intelligence. You don't seem as dumb as the questions, I'm sure you were influenced by reading too much denialist propaganda.

Your questions:


Instead of answering your questions, I'll paste two of my regular statements, which prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it was genocide. For me, had not a single eyewitness and/or survivor account, picture, document, etc. existed it would still be genocide because:

I. Armenians lived in their homeland for thousands of years, then the Turks invaded and after centuries of abuse they decided to empty Armenia of its indigenous inhabitants. As a result no Christian Armenians live in their ancestral home anymore. This is by definition called genocide, end of story.

II. If all those millions of women, children and elderly were armed to their teeth rebels, how come they didn't rebel and walked like sheep to roast in the desert?


Now the list. Those highlighted are the ones that appear in your post: See how much your fascist government has corrupted your minds. That's what I referred to when I mentioned brainwash. It was not to insult you.


The Armenian Genocide Deniers' FAQ:

I. It was war… People died…

II. Ottomans only wanted to relocate the rebels.

III. Turks died as well.

IV. What reason on earth did the Turks have to exterminate the Armenians?

V. Armenians revolted against their “masters”, they got what they deserved.

VI. If the Turks wanted to kill the Armenians why didn’t they kill them where they lived and despite the fact that they were engaged in war they took the expensive decision to relocate the Armenians?

VII. It was the Armenian “terrorists” who killed up to 2.5 million Turks.

VIII. Yes, there were cases of violent attacks but it was not planned.

IX. Armenians lived peacefully in the Ottoman “empire” until one day Armenians betrayed their “masters”.

X. Let’s play the numbers game, Armenians highly exaggerate the number of dead.

XI. There is no comparison between what happened to the Jews and what happened to the Armenians.

XII. Present day Armenia should forget the past and establish ties with its neighbors.

XIII. Leave the subject to historians.

XIV. Let us organize a meeting between historians of the two sides and see who’s right.

XV. Turkey has opened its archives. Why doesn’t Armenia do the same?

XVI. If it was genocide then how come the Armenians in Constantinople were not massacred?

XVII. You have slandered the Turks and have tarnished our honor for a long time, now it’s our turn to attack and expose your “lies”.

XVIII. Armenians are not the indigenous people of “Eastern Anatolia”.

XIX. It was the Ottomans who committed these crimes. Why should the present Turkish state be held responsible?

XX. The countries that have recognized the Armenian Genocide have an agenda.

XXI. No evidence has been found to confirm that it was really genocide.

XXII. The fact that “the Malta Tribunals” were dismissed was because of the absence of evidence. This “proves” there was no genocide.


P.S. The list is by no means exhaustive. I just added the last two points, because they do come back time and again.

You should also know that Talat, Enver, Jemal and Nazim were condemned to death by the court in absentia (they had “fled” to Germany, having taken with them all important CUP archives), so when the Armenian heroes disposed of this garbage and put an end to their miserable existence, they only carried out the sentence issued by the Istanbul court.

thanks for your response.

[imported_Hellektor]

thanks for your response.

You're welcome!