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To All the Denialists Here

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  • #1

    To All the Denialists Here

    Just answer me one thing, why does the International Association of Genocide Scholars without question affirm the Armenian Genocide?

    President
    Israel Charny (Israel)

    First Vice-President
    Gregory H. Stanton (USA)

    Second Vice-President
    Linda Melvern (UK)

    Secretary-Treasurer
    Steven Jacobs (USA)

    None one Armenian last name. They are THE organization when it comes to Genocides, so I think their opinion matters most when it comes determining if the Armenian Genocide really happened. McCarthy, Lewis, Lewy can not even be compared to them.

    And this is what they are saying (not me):

    The Armenian Genocide is corroborated by the international scholarly, legal, and human rights community:

    1) Polish jurist Raphael Lemkin, when he coined the term genocide in 1944, cited the Turkish extermination of the Armenians and the Nazi extermination of the Jews as defining examples of what he meant by genocide.

    2) The killings of the Armenians is genocide as defined by the 1948 United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.

    3) In 1997 the International Association of Genocide Scholars, an organization of the world’s foremost experts on genocide, unanimously passed a formal resolution affirming the Armenian Genocide.

    4) 126 leading scholars of the Holocaust including Elie Wiesel and Yehuda Bauer placed a statement in the New York Times in June 2000 declaring the “incontestable fact of the Armenian Genocide” and urging western democracies to acknowledge it.

    5) The Institute on the Holocaust and Genocide (Jerusalem), and the Institute for the Study of Genocide (NYC) have affirmed the historical fact of the Armenian Genocide.

    6) Leading texts in the international law of genocide such as William A. Schabas’s Genocide in International Law (Cambridge University Press, 2000) cite the Armenian Genocide as a precursor to the Holocaust and as a precedent for the law on crimes against humanity.
    Tags: None
  • #2
    Here is the full text:

    INTERNATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF GENOCIDE SCHOLARS





    President

    Israel Charny (Israel)



    First Vice-President

    Gregory H. Stanton (USA)



    Second Vice-President

    Linda Melvern (UK)



    Secretary-Treasurer

    Steven Jacobs (USA)







    June 13, 2005





    Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan

    TC Easbakanlik

    Bakanlikir

    Ankara, Turkey



    FAX: 90 312 417 0476



    Dear Prime Minister Erdogan:



    We are writing you this open letter in response to your call for an “impartial study by historians” concerning the fate of the Armenian people in the Ottoman Empire during World War I.



    We represent the major body of scholars who study genocide in North America and Europe. We are concerned that in calling for an impartial study of the Armenian Genocide you may not be fully aware of the extent of the scholarly and intellectual record on the Armenian Genocide and how this event conforms to the definition of the United Nations Genocide Convention. We want to underscore that it is not just Armenians who are affirming the Armenian Genocide but it is the overwhelming opinion of scholars who study genocide: hundreds of independent scholars, who have no affiliations with governments, and whose work spans many countries and nationalities and the course of decades. The scholarly evidence reveals the following:



    On April 24, 1915, under cover of World War I, the Young Turk government of the Ottoman Empire began a systematic genocide of its Armenian citizens – an unarmed Christian minority population. More than a million Armenians were exterminated through direct killing, starvation, torture, and forced death marches. The rest of the Armenian population fled into permanent exile. Thus an ancient civilization was expunged from its homeland of 2,500 years.



    The Armenian Genocide was the most well-known human rights issue of its time and was reported regularly in newspapers across the United States and Europe. The Armenian Genocide is abundantly documented by thousands of official records of the United States and nations around the world including Turkey’s wartime allies Germany, Austria and Hungary, by Ottoman court-martial records, by eyewitness accounts of missionaries and diplomats, by the testimony of survivors, and by decades of historical scholarship.



    The Armenian Genocide is corroborated by the international scholarly, legal, and human rights community:

    1) Polish jurist Raphael Lemkin, when he coined the term genocide in 1944, cited the Turkish extermination of the Armenians and the Nazi extermination of the Jews as defining examples of what he meant by genocide.

    2) The killings of the Armenians is genocide as defined by the 1948 United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.

    3) In 1997 the International Association of Genocide Scholars, an organization of the world’s foremost experts on genocide, unanimously passed a formal resolution affirming the Armenian Genocide.

    4) 126 leading scholars of the Holocaust including Elie Wiesel and Yehuda Bauer placed a statement in the New York Times in June 2000 declaring the “incontestable fact of the Armenian Genocide” and urging western democracies to acknowledge it.

    5) The Institute on the Holocaust and Genocide (Jerusalem), and the Institute for the Study of Genocide (NYC) have affirmed the historical fact of the Armenian Genocide.

    6) Leading texts in the international law of genocide such as William A. Schabas’s Genocide in International Law (Cambridge University Press, 2000) cite the Armenian Genocide as a precursor to the Holocaust and as a precedent for the law on crimes against humanity.



    We note that there may be differing interpretations of genocide—how and why the Armenian Genocide happened, but to deny its factual and moral reality as genocide is not to engage in scholarship but in propaganda and efforts to absolve the perpetrator, blame the victims, and erase the ethical meaning of this history.



    We would also note that scholars who advise your government and who are affiliated in other ways with your state-controlled institutions are not impartial. Such so-called “scholars” work to serve the agenda of historical and moral obfuscation when they advise you and the Turkish Parliament on how to deny the Armenian Genocide. In preventing a conference on the Armenian Genocide from taking place at Bogacizi University in Istanbul on May 25, your government revealed its aversion to academic and intellectual freedom—a fundamental condition of democratic society.



    We believe that it is clearly in the interest of the Turkish people and their future as a proud and equal participants in international, democratic discourse to acknowledge the responsibility of a previous government for the genocide of the Armenian people, just as the German government and people have done in the case of the Holocaust.

    http://www.genocidewatch.org/TurkishPMIAGSOpenLetterreArmenia6-13-05.htm

    Comment

    • #3
      So, you say lets leave this question to historians and not politicians, I totally AGREE with you all and here I just showed that the MAJORITY of Genocide and Holocaust Scholars (notice they are not just historians, but have deep knowledge in Genocide studies) ALL Affirm the Armenian Genocide.

      What more proof do you want?

      Comment

      • #4
        It is good that they acknowledge the Armenian losses, however I dont recall such recognition when the case is related to Ottoman muslims like the Crimean Tatars, Circassians, Chechens, Akhbaz, Laz, Karachay-Balkars, Kumyks, Albanians, Pomaks, muslim Greeks and Armenians who were subject to identical policies (applied by the christian Europeans) before 1915.

        Comment

        • #5
          Originally posted by ScythianVizier
          It is good that they acknowledge the Armenian losses, however I dont recall such recognition when the case is related to Ottoman muslims like the Crimean Tatars, Circassians, Chechens, Akhbaz, Laz, Karachay-Balkars, Kumyks, Albanians, Pomaks, muslim Greeks and Armenians who were subject to identical policies (applied by the christian Europeans) before 1915.
          Perhaps if these other human rights violations had as much evidence to support your conviction that they were Genocide, then Genocide scholars might also declare them to be Genocide as well. It's not easy to prove Genocide; we know. It takes thousands of documents and eyewitness accounts from divergent sources.

          Comment

          • #6
            Originally posted by phantom
            Perhaps if these other human rights violations had as much evidence to support your conviction that they were Genocide, then Genocide scholars might also declare them to be Genocide as well. It's not easy to prove Genocide; we know. It takes thousands of documents and eyewitness accounts from divergent sources.
            One question which bothers my mind is this, and no irony or sarcasm is meant: It is a well known fact the recognition of massacres or genocides, if they are committed during war times, greatly depends on whether the perpetrator nation has won the war or not. It is therefore no surprise that the victorious British never had to recognize their genocide in Indian Subcontinent, or the Frence in North Africa. On the other hand, defeated Nazi Germany had to recognize its evil deeds on Jews.

            Ottoman Turkey was also utterly defeated and occupied after the end of WW1. There were not a single public office or archive which was not occupied and inspected by the occupying French, British, Greek, and Italian officers. Istanbul, as well as other cities with military archives, such as Aleppo, Izmir, Antep were permanently or temporarily under foreign control.

            Now my honest question is, why did these nations mot condemn & persecute the puppet Ottoman government or the fledgling Turkish Republic? From 1919 to 1923, the occupying countries waged a brutal war against the Turkish nationalist movement, and it would be very convenient to bring up the Armenian issue to morally undermine the Turkish forces. Wouldn't it be easier to establish facts when they were fresh and easily documentable? To me, this missing link in history doesn't make much sense.

            Comment

            • #7
              Originally posted by Vogelgrippe
              One question which bothers my mind is this, and no irony or sarcasm is meant: It is a well known fact the recognition of massacres or genocides, if they are committed during war times, greatly depends on whether the perpetrator nation has won the war or not. It is therefore no surprise that the victorious British never had to recognize their genocide in Indian Subcontinent, or the Frence in North Africa. On the other hand, defeated Nazi Germany had to recognize its evil deeds on Jews.

              Ottoman Turkey was also utterly defeated and occupied after the end of WW1. There were not a single public office or archive which was not occupied and inspected by the occupying French, British, Greek, and Italian officers. Istanbul, as well as other cities with military archives, such as Aleppo, Izmir, Antep were permanently or temporarily under foreign control.

              Now my honest question is, why did these nations mot condemn & persecute the puppet Ottoman government or the fledgling Turkish Republic? From 1919 to 1923, the occupying countries waged a brutal war against the Turkish nationalist movement, and it would be very convenient to bring up the Armenian issue to morally undermine the Turkish forces. Wouldn't it be easier to establish facts when they were fresh and easily documentable? To me, this missing link in history doesn't make much sense.
              What do you think about Germany (Turkey's WW1) ally recognizing the Armenain Genocide?

              Comment

              • #8
                Hayer, notice how (with regard to your orignal post by IAGS) Turks either brush it off or ignore it all together. They cannot confront the fact that unbiased experts on the subject accept the Armenian Genocide as fact.

                Comment

                • #9
                  Originally posted by Vogelgrippe
                  One question which bothers my mind is this, and no irony or sarcasm is meant: It is a well known fact the recognition of massacres or genocides, if they are committed during war times, greatly depends on whether the perpetrator nation has won the war or not. It is therefore no surprise that the victorious British never had to recognize their genocide in Indian Subcontinent, or the Frence in North Africa. On the other hand, defeated Nazi Germany had to recognize its evil deeds on Jews.

                  Ottoman Turkey was also utterly defeated and occupied after the end of WW1. There were not a single public office or archive which was not occupied and inspected by the occupying French, British, Greek, and Italian officers. Istanbul, as well as other cities with military archives, such as Aleppo, Izmir, Antep were permanently or temporarily under foreign control.

                  Now my honest question is, why did these nations mot condemn & persecute the puppet Ottoman government or the fledgling Turkish Republic? From 1919 to 1923, the occupying countries waged a brutal war against the Turkish nationalist movement, and it would be very convenient to bring up the Armenian issue to morally undermine the Turkish forces. Wouldn't it be easier to establish facts when they were fresh and easily documentable? To me, this missing link in history doesn't make much sense.
                  There's no missing link. The leaders of the CUP who ordered the extermination were tried and convicted in Turkish Military Tribunals from 1919-1920 in Istanbul. The records from those tribunals are very compelling, particularly since the eyewitnesses and documentary evidence is all Turkish, not Armenian, British or anyone else that might be considered biased.

                  Following WWI and after the Tribunals, however, when the west realized that Ataturk was bent on secularizing and democratizing Turkey, the UK, US, and France all lined up to curry favor with the new Turkey. The Armenian issue was swept under the rug, letting bygones be bygones, and everything went back to business as usual.

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    Some Rhetorical Questions

                    Originally posted by Vogelgrippe
                    One question which bothers my mind is this, and no irony or sarcasm is meant: It is a well known fact the recognition of massacres or genocides, if they are committed during war times, greatly depends on whether the perpetrator nation has won the war or not. It is therefore no surprise that the victorious British never had to recognize their genocide in Indian Subcontinent, or the Frence in North Africa. On the other hand, defeated Nazi Germany had to recognize its evil deeds on Jew.
                    There are many questions that bother me, but no matter how many times I put them to the Armenian Genocide deniers, they keep silent.

                    For instance:
                    How many millions of North Africans: Moroccans, Algerians, Tunisians, etc. live in their country of origin?

                    How many millions of North Africans live in France although it's not even their country of origin?

                    How many millions of French live in North Africa?

                    Does France still occupy North Africa?

                    Has France gone on a frenzied rampage to wipe out any trace of North Africans in those countries and that, in this day and age?

                    While French presence had a lot of negative effects, they brought some kind of European civilization the North Africans have benefited from.

                    Does France deny what they did?
                    Do they accuse the North Africans of their own savagery?


                    Now compare:
                    How many Armenians live in Turkish occupied Armenia, their homeland of thousands of years?

                    Don't Turks still occupy 90%+ of Armenian territory and aren't they whining for more?

                    Doesn't Turkey as well as its satellite state, the bogus "Azerbaijan", ravage every trace of millennia old Armenian presence after they annihilated the indigenous people of that land?

                    The Turks brought nothing but death, destruction, subjugation, terror, rape, slavery, pillage, plunder, stealing of women and children and genocide and stopped the natural progress of the industrious Armenians.

                    Do Turks accept what they did?
                    Don't they accuse the Armenians of their own savagery?
                    Four things denialist Turks do when they are confronted with facts:

                    I. They change the subject [SIZE="1"](e.g. they copy/paste tons of garbage to divert attention).[/SIZE]
                    II. They project [SIZE="1"](e.g. they replace "Turk" with "Armenian" and vice versa and they regurgitate Armenian history).[/SIZE]
                    III. They offend [SIZE="1"](e.g. they cuss, threaten and/or mock).[/SIZE]
                    IV. They shut up and say nothing.

                    [URL="http://b.imagehost.org/download/0689/azerbaijan-real-fake-absurd.pdf"][COLOR="Red"]A country named Azerbaijan north of the Arax River [B]NEVER[/B] existed before 1918[/COLOR][/URL]

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