OMG Turkey is starting to panic

[imported_Hellektor]

Diagnosis of the Psychosis: Symptom I They change the subject

TurQ, here is a summary of (majority) Armenian reactions to true or alleged genocides.

Belgians committed genocide on Congolese: Nooo, poor Belgians were just modernizing (and a little bit colonizing Congo)! BTW where the heck is Congo anyways?

Russians committed genocide on Tatars: Nooo, Tatars were all and 101% Nazi collaborators. They were friendly shipped to Siberia for recreational purposes.

Russians committed genocide on Caucasian Moslems: Nooooo, are you kidding? Look at Chechens, they are all terrorists. I am sure their massacred ancestors were terrorists too!

French committed genocide on Algerians? Nooo, millions of Algerians live and work in France now (as if Algeria is a rich and industrialized nation). Would they do so if there was a genocide?

British committed genocide in Indian Subcontinent: Noooooo, come on, how come more than a billion people live there now?

Turks committed genocide on Armenians: Yesssssssssssss. Not only on Armenians, but they even managed to commit genocide on Greeks while Western & Northwestern Turkey was under Greek occupation!

Welcome back to the kingdom of reason

Vogel,

Why don't you get it?

This website is :

https://www.armeniangenocide.com

An account of all the atrocities committed in history does not put you off the hook.


Exactly because all those colonized lands are INDEPENDENT states, their territorial integrity is largely respected, they are NO MORE OCCUPIED by their enemies/killers/occupiers/invaders/colonizers, no, more than that, they are considered EQUAL partners, the atrocities ARE NOT DENIED, the genofund of those races has not been severely reduced (more than 70% in 20th century alone, in case of Armenians), their civilizations did not suffer 1000 years of repression and regression, their cultural heritage is not being savagely destroyed to this day and age, history is not being faked in the style of "the Belgians had a civilization in Congo 9,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 eons Before the Big Bang or the Indians betrayed their British masters and got what their deserved", etc., the Armenian Genocide gains urgency and the injustice is more blatant in this case.

Your constant whining of others' crimes is an insult to your own intelligence and an insult to the victims of the Armenian Genocide.

The question is why you are constantly bringing up those accounts?
What are you trying to achieve?
You want us, who have suffered thousand years of death, destruction, subjugation, terror, rape, slavery, pillage, plunder, humiliation, turkification and genocide under your suffocating yoke to go forget our urgent and unsolved cause, and busy ourselves with the crimes of Europeans?

Your nagging stinks of hypocrisy. I'm not sure you give a damn about those you mention. I don't believe their suffering is constantly on your mind and has scarred you for life.
The Armenian Genocide has scarred our lives. The pain lives on. The survivors are also victims because justice was not done. We would be hypocrites to go and actively participate in solving others' problems, forgetting ours. Won't we?

But let us first get to their status. First let us see our occupied Armenia liberated, let us establish relations based on equality and not you still seeing us as the subjects of your great fukking Ottoman "empire", then we'll see what we can do about all the other atrocities you are talking about.

Writing about Major Niyazi who took part in the suppression of the Bulgarian uprising, and who confessed that he felt the pain of the rebels, Aydemir writes:
"Indeed, he fought for a master who had not been able to prove its legitimacy in 500 years; who in 500 years, had not been able to add a positive value to this region, who had not been able to bring about a single constructive development and whose end was imminent, while the opponent knew what they wanted and what they were dying for."
(Aydemir, S. S., from Enver Pasa, III parts, Istanbul, Remzi Pub. page 444.)

Why you never mention the 27,000,000 (twenty seven million) Russians who died in WWII, for instance, and you emphasize the examples of Tatars, Chechens, Circassians, Bosnians, etc.?

[turque]

It was first postponed and second time(2 or 3 weeks later) the head of the parliment did not even allow it to be voted, the Armenians in the lobby who are watching, shouted and chanted "we want voting", but the head of the parliment insisting on not allowing that bill even be discussed.
It's practically dead,it's interesting I personally didnt expect France to take such an action. The French historians also opposed the bill and they have given ADs to French newspapers protesting the bill.
One of the opposers is Ara Sarafian BTW

As I know the french bill was postponed, not rejected...

[Gavur]

Not true, either your lying or misinformed
2 items on the agenda that day both was discussed including Denialist penalty bill which was second after countless unnecassary delays it was brought up talked about but becayse of time restraint was never voted on.
It will be brought up again next session in fall.
Thanks to arm twisting of Cirac I believe both by Turkey and Armenia since they are in secret talks they expertly delayed it .So its another marker against Turkey to be used if they dont do the right thing.

[turque]

There's an immense biased and selective perception problem in this issue.

I can see that even contemporary events can be percieved so differently.

Armenians excessively focus on the events of 1915, and focus on only the events in Anatolia. Thats why our perceptions are greatly divergent with Armenians. On the other hand Diasporans like our Gurbetci's in Europe become heavily nostalgic for their history or homeland. Deportations and the trauma of the WW-I effects them more than others who did not lose their ancestorial lands. May be it is the most unreasonable thing to seek reason in these discussions(After seeing attempts to prove that Turks or CUP actually thought Germans to be NAzis and how to become racists).

Anyways this dough consumes lots of water, and discussions goes on and on

But I still am optimistic that Turks and Armenians can solve their problems thru social and cultural means, and build bridges among their communities and set example to the whole world which is on the verge of clash of civilizations.

TurQ, here is a summary of (majority) Armenian reactions to true or alleged genocides.

Belgians committed genocide on Congolese: Nooo, poor Belgians were just modernizing (and a little bit colonizing Congo)! BTW where the heck is Congo anyways?

Russians committed genocide on Tatars: Nooo, Tatars were all and 101% Nazi collaborators. They were friendly shipped to Siberia for recreational purposes.

Russians committed genocide on Caucasian Moslems: Nooooo, are you kidding? Look at Chechens, they are all terrorists. I am sure their massacred ancestors were terrorists too!

French committed genocide on Algerians? Nooo, millions of Algerians live and work in France now (as if Algeria is a rich and industrialized nation). Would they do so if there was a genocide?

British committed genocide in Indian Subcontinent: Noooooo, come on, how come more than a billion people live there now?

Turks committed genocide on Armenians: Yesssssssssssss. Not only on Armenians, but they even managed to commit genocide on Greeks while Western & Northwestern Turkey was under Greek occupation!

Welcome back to the kingdom of reason

[Gavur]

Its not about perception
Just give me the facts!

[Gavur]

Facts are facts
Unless you got the Azeri desease
FACTS ARE FACTS!

[HayerMiacek]

But I still am optimistic that Turks and Armenians can solve their problems thru social and cultural means, and build bridges among their communities and set example to the whole world which is on the verge of clash of civilizations.

The first step is genocide recognition by your government

[Hovik]

Hovik, as I wrote here umpteen times, I am not generalizing the views of Armenians, I am only sampling the opinions of Armenians posting here on this forum. I deliberately made them sound blunter in order to point to their silliness, and this probably disturbed you as well.

Perhaps it's not what you meant to do, but thats what you did... like it or not...

Here are some truly silly assertions which were made on this forum, and supported by several Armenian members: (I can indicate the exact postings and threads upon your request)

Vogel, there have been brainless Armenians here who have essentially tried to say that there was never a Jew so much as touched by a Nazi... so if you're trying to prove that ignorant people exist in every community - forget it - mission accomplished.

- While all Western, Southwestern, and Northwestern Turkey was occupied by the Greek Army between 1919-1923, Turks committed genocide on Greeks!!!!!

- French had few misdeeds in Algeria, and maybe killed a few. But overall, French occupation was a good thing, because it helped Algerians become more civilized & a little bit European. And even though their country and economy is thriving, millions of Algerians work in France (mostly in xxxxty jobs) out of their pure love for France!!!!

-Turks in Britain campaign for the recognition of Belgian Genocide on Congolese. Many MP's signed the bill. Turks do it to scare off Belgians. When Belgians reject the Armenian bill, Turks will beg to British MP who signed it to withdraw their signatures!!!!!

Thanks for sharing. I truly believe that the Turks couldn't care less about what the French did in Algeria or what Belgium did in the Congo, the ONLY reason they pay any attention to it is to try to stop Armenians from recognition. They are hardly a proponent of Human Rights...

I sincerely pray to God that the Congolese bill will be approved by the British parliament, even if it is at the expense of Armenian bill being approved at the Belgian parliament. I am the most enthusiastic supporter of Turkey's thorough and honest reconciliation with its history. At the same time, I am the biggest opponent of those who want to single out Turkey as the only country who had failed to face its past misdeeds.

If you are saying you want to see the hypocritical west face up to their own pasts, that's great! Even though France recognizes the Armenian Genocide, if it is ever proven that there was a Genocide in Algeria, I'd fully support recognition of it in other countries. Turkey wants to make blackmail out of Genocide recognition - nothing more.

While I appreciate your response, I am cognizant of the fact that this is all a game for Turks and Turkey - and Gavur hits the nail on the head by pointing out the transparency of the whole thing... who do you think you're kidding...?

Here is an opportunity for self-criticism for you: You point to a connection between the states that supposedly perpetrated genocides and the states which recognize the Armenian genocide. By that you obviously claim that Turks slander the most innocent, sincere, and self-critical countries with a perfect past, just because they recognize the Armenian genocide.

Can it be, on the contrary, that you guys want to ignore the genocides of your genocide-recognizers so that they do not make a U-Turn and retract their recognition? Or is it simple coincidence that you recognize genocides committed by nations irrevelant to your recognition struggles (such as Cambodian and Rwandan), but not those committed by nations which either protect your borders (Russia) or recognize the A.G (France, Belgium)?

Not really...
Israel denies the Armenian Genocide simply for reasons of survival, yet the majority of Armenians recognize the Jewish Genocide.

Still, I have to add that you sound open and sincere about your desire to find out more about 'Turkish genocide claims about other nations'. Therefore I accept that the burden of proof is mine regarding material and links about the French and Belgian 'actions' in Africa. To the best of my knowledge, however, ScynthianVizier recently provided excellent sources regarding Russian attrocities on Caucasian Moslems.

Thanks, you think right - the burden of proof is on you... However, I took the liberty to do a google search on with the words "algerian genocide" I have to say most of the sites that pop up are either (1) Turkish (2) Regarding Turkeys desire to recognize the Algerian Genocide because of Frances recognition of the Armenian Genocide or (3) posts in forums like this by random people. Now if that doesn't tell you something there is a problem. I don't see any (let alone a significant number of) Algerian groups fighting for recognition, nor do I see any (let alone a significant number of) credible historians recognizing the Algerian Genocide. I haven't been able to find any statement from the International Assocation of Genocide Scholars or the Institute for the Study of Genocide, both groups unbiased Genocide experts. If they did recognize it please post a link or document.

So, in short while an Algerian Genocide may have occurred, there is little to no information on it, while there is a world of information and confirmation of the Armenian Genocide. I'll reiterate that it's quite transparent whats going on here between Turks, Turkey and their 'moral fight for the victims of Algeria'...

[imported_Hellektor]

They damn well know it was genocide

TurQ, here is a summary of (majority) Armenian reactions to true or alleged genocides.

A summary of (majority) Turkish style reactions after each quote:

Belgians committed genocide on Congolese: Nooo, poor Belgians were just modernizing (and a little bit colonizing Congo)! BTW where the heck is Congo anyways?

Yes, there were cases of violent attacks but it was not planned.

Russians committed genocide on Tatars: Nooo, Tatars were all and 101% Nazi collaborators. They were friendly shipped to Siberia for recreational purposes.

Russians only wanted to relocate the rebels.
Tatars betrayed their masters, they got what they deserved.
Besides, it was the Soviets who committed these crimes. Why should the present day democratic Russian state be held responsible?

Russians committed genocide on Caucasian Moslems: Nooooo, are you kidding? Look at Chechens, they are all terrorists. I am sure their massacred ancestors were terrorists too!

It was first the Chechen terrorists who killed up to 186 children in Beslan, more than 120 in a Moscow theater, many at a rock concert, countless in underground stations, residential areas, etc.

French committed genocide on Algerians? Nooo, millions of Algerians live and work in France now (as if Algeria is a rich and industrialized nation). Would they do so if there was a genocide?

What reason on earth did the French have to exterminate the Algerians?
Algerians lived peacefully in the French Empire until one day Algerians betrayed their masters and revolted.

British committed genocide in Indian Subcontinent: Noooooo, come on, how come more than a billion people live there now?

It was war… People died…
Let’s play the numbers game, if the British committed genocide in Indian Subcontinent how come there are more than a billion living there, while at the time of British rule they counted many times less.
Moreover, the subject must be left to historians.


_________________________________________

Turks committed genocide on Armenians: Yesssssssssssss. Not only on Armenians, but they even managed to commit genocide on Greeks while Western & Northwestern Turkey was under Greek occupation!

Western & Northwestern Turkey are in fact Eastern Greece and they have the divine right to want it back. Any means to throw the thieves out of one's home is justified.

By the way, you forgot the Assyrians!

Welcome back to the kingdom of reason

I came back to this post of yours only for the following statement:

Russians committed genocide on Tatars: Nooo, Tatars were all and 101% Nazi collaborators. They were friendly shipped to Siberia for recreational purposes.

How come here your brain can fathom that an entire nation should not be punished for the act of a group of rebels, whatever the purpose of the rebellion, however harsh their methods; but you will instantly deny the Armenian Genocide where an entire nation was deprived of their homeland for thousands of years under the guise of "friendly" "relocation" of rebellious elements to the burning Syrian desert, let me guess, "for recreational purposes"?

You damn well know it was genocide. You're just pulling our legs because you love to play games.

[Vogelgrippe]

Vogel,

Why don't you get it?

This website is :

https://www.armeniangenocide.com

An account of all the atrocities committed in history does not put you off the hook.


Exactly because all those colonized lands are INDEPENDENT states, their territorial integrity is largely respected, they are NO MORE OCCUPIED by their enemies/killers/occupiers/invaders/colonizers, no, more than that, they are considered EQUAL partners, the atrocities ARE NOT DENIED, the genofund of those races has not been severely reduced (more than 70% in 20th century alone, in case of Armenians), their civilizations did not suffer 1000 years of repression and regression, their cultural heritage is not being savagely destroyed to this day and age, history is not being faked in the style of "the Belgians had a civilization in Congo 9,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 eons Before the Big Bang or the Indians betrayed their British masters and got what their deserved", etc., the Armenian Genocide gains urgency and the injustice is more blatant in this case.

Your constant whining of others' crimes is an insult to your own intelligence and an insult to the victims of the Armenian Genocide.

The question is why you are constantly bringing up those accounts?
What are you trying to achieve?
You want us, who have suffered thousand years of death, destruction, subjugation, terror, rape, slavery, pillage, plunder, humiliation, turkification and genocide under your suffocating yoke to go forget our urgent and unsolved cause, and busy ourselves with the crimes of Europeans?

Your nagging stinks of hypocrisy. I'm not sure you give a damn about those you mention. I don't believe their suffering is constantly on your mind and has scarred you for life.
The Armenian Genocide has scarred our lives. The pain lives on. The survivors are also victims because justice was not done. We would be hypocrites to go and actively participate in solving others' problems, forgetting ours. Won't we?

But let us first get to their status. First let us see our occupied Armenia liberated, let us establish relations based on equality and not you still seeing us as the subjects of your great fukking Ottoman "empire", then we'll see what we can do about all the other atrocities you are talking about.

Writing about Major Niyazi who took part in the suppression of the Bulgarian uprising, and who confessed that he felt the pain of the rebels, Aydemir writes:
"Indeed, he fought for a master who had not been able to prove its legitimacy in 500 years; who in 500 years, had not been able to add a positive value to this region, who had not been able to bring about a single constructive development and whose end was imminent, while the opponent knew what they wanted and what they were dying for."
(Aydemir, S. S., from Enver Pasa, III parts, Istanbul, Remzi Pub. page 444.)

Why you never mention the 27,000,000 (twenty seven million) Russians who died in WWII, for instance, and you emphasize the examples of Tatars, Chechens, Circassians, Bosnians, etc.?

Hellektor, I had dealt with your standpoint in the 'Something needs to be done about the Turks' thread, in posting nr.569. Since you did not respond to it, I thought this was maybe because the thread was closed, or maybe because you silently agreed with me. Now however, I started to suspect that you omitted it deliberately, because admitting to it would make you sound even more hostile than you actually are. Regardless, I hope that you have at least read it, so please do not make me repeat all of the stuff again, and have understanding that I answer your two postings in one reply.

Good that you agree with me that denialists tend to use similar wordings and vocabulary. The only problem here is that you deeply question the reactions of the Turks while you simply take other denialist's propaganda at face value. It is certainly understandable that you show more sensitivity for the suffering of Armenians, but it is heartless bigotry to dismiss other nations' sufferings as propaganda simply because it was brought up by Turks. In case you want to underline the baselessness of denial tactics, you did a good job by switching the words 'Turks' and 'Armenians', to show how silly it sounds regardess of the denialist's background.

Thanks also for the big fonts you used about the nature of this forum. I do not like to use big fonts, but let me make it at least bold for you

As you indicated in several postings of yours, it is rather you who has to realize that the name of this forum is armeniangenocide.com. For you, the blood feud between Turks and Armenians started in 1071, when our ancestors had set foot in Anatolia. Despite your hostile nature, I always condidered you a sincere person, and therefore do not understand why you are denying and projecting this attitude of yours. Genocide recognition by Turkey and your wholehearted rancor against Turks are two irrevelant topics.

I have unfortunately no mind-reading capabilities, therefore I will not accuse you of not giving a damn about other nations' sufferings like you do. I therefore expect the same respect from you, and the benefit of doubt that my concern for suffering people might be, after all, genuine.

Finally, despite the fact that recognition will not serve for reconciliation for those like you, I have nothing against your struggle in order to have the genocide recognized. I am only getting angry with nations with their own ugly histories who choose to support your claims in a hypocritical way. ( I have nothing against countries like, the current government of South Africa recognizing the A.G ,because they had dealt honestly with their ugly recent past) Therefore I will neither ask for your permission to get angry with these hypocrats, nor fear that pointing a finger to them will be met with denial / projection accusations.