OMG Turkey is starting to panic

[Joseph]

There is no panic in turkey ....

There was also no genocide in turkey. as a person who lived in the east part of turkey for 16 years, I could say that there was a war not genocide. some armenians escaped, some died and rest of them assimilated.. still you could find some assimilated armenian in turkey. I do not advocate what turkish or kurdish have done in the past but these kind of things happened many time in the different parts of the world....

there is no genocide but war...

regards

Yes, genocide has happened throughout history and in many parts of the world and it happened in the Ottoman Empire as well. Lemkin was very clear when he used the decimation of the Armenians as an example for his term "genocide". Some Armenians did escape genocide; as some Jews escaped the holocaust; some Cambodians escpaed Pol Pot; some Bosnians escaped the Chetniks, etc. Yes, some Armenians did assimilate into Turks, especially in the east, where being an Armenians Christian was a death sentence. Gee, thanks for that.

[Hovik]

There is no panic in turkey ....

There was also no genocide in turkey. as a person who lived in the east part of turkey for 16 years, I could say that there was a war not genocide. some armenians escaped, some died and rest of them assimilated.. still you could find some assimilated armenian in turkey. I do not advocate what turkish or kurdish have done in the past but these kind of things happened many time in the different parts of the world....

there is no genocide but war...

regards

Normally I'd ban you for forum rule violations (Armenian Genocide Denial) but your '16 years' of experience are really quite entertaining, so I'll enjoy this for a bit... I'll remind you that Turkey wasn't at war with the Armenians... Armenians had nothing to do with WW1.

In your 16 years, how many non-Turkish books have you read on the subject? Please list them.

[imported_Hellektor]

Diagnosis of the Psychosis: Symptom I They change the subject

Hellektor, I had dealt with your standpoint in the 'Something needs to be done about the Turks' thread, in posting nr.569. Since you did not respond to it, I thought this was maybe because the thread was closed, or maybe because you silently agreed with me. Now however, I started to suspect that you omitted it deliberately, because admitting to it would make you sound even more hostile than you actually are. Regardless, I hope that you have at least read it, so please do not make me repeat all of the stuff again, and have understanding that I answer your two postings in one reply.

I wasn't going to answer this post because I have dealt with these issues a million times.
However, in order for you not to think I agree with you I'll answer, i.e. repeat what I've been saying all along on this forum for over a year.
Since you don't like them I won't use big fonts, but if you are going to change the subject again, I'm not going to respond.

Thanks also for the big fonts you used about the nature of this forum. I do not like to use big fonts, but let me make it at least bold for you

As you indicated in several postings of yours, it is rather you who has to realize that the name of this forum is armeniangenocide.com. For you, the blood feud between Turks and Armenians started in 1071, when our ancestors had set foot in Anatolia. Despite your hostile nature, I always condidered you a sincere person, and therefore do not understand why you are denying and projecting this attitude of yours. Genocide recognition by Turkey and your wholehearted rancor against Turks are two irrevelant topics.

I have made it clear a zillion times that I have a different approach than the majority of Armenians concerning the Armenian Genocide. This is no pretentious statement and I'm not the only one who thinks the way I do.
The problem with most of the Armenians is that they have presented the genocide of 1915 as the only horrible thing that happened to the Armenians in the millennium long Turkish oppression of the indigenous people of Armenia.
This has also given the Turks the denial weapons they employ all the time and refuse to take responsibility for their criminal deeds.

These include:
It was war… People died…
Armenians revolted against their “masters”, they got what they deserved.
It was the Armenian “terrorists” who killed up to 2.5 million Turks.
Armenians lived peacefully in the Ottoman “empire” until one day Armenians betrayed their “masters”.

By knowing that the Turks have started the extermination of the indigenous Christian peoples of the land they occupied from the moment they invaded the region, these pretexts are rendered void.

It's astonishing while you say you have followed my posts, you still pretend you never heard what I've been saying all along.
I'll have to paste the rest of my post from my mega textfile, because I don't feel like typing it all over for the trillionth time and you pretend you didn't see it:

That the Armenian Genocide neither started in 1915 nor ended after the end of WWI is as clear as daylight. The Turks started their organized turkification of Armenia and Asia Minor right from the ill day their hordes of primitive, barbaric ancestors set hoof this side of the Caspian.

One has only to browse the accounts of Armenian historians who witnessed their savageries as well as Ottoman records to see that those who suffered most under the crushing Turkish yoke were mainly the Christian reaya and above all the most numerous millet of them all, the Armenians.

The examples abound: the deportation of the Armenians of Caesarea to Cyprus in 1573 when the greatest Ottoman Architect Sinan asked Sultan Selim II the “favor” not to deport his family, which was “granted” by the “magnanimous” representative of god on earth.

Or think of more than three centuries of wars between Ottoman and Safavids of Persia that invariably took place on Armenian soil.
An example: Ottoman historian Peçevi testifies “the army of the sultan set out to Erzerum and Kars via Dyarbekir in 1554. Upon arriving in Eastern Armenia, the “conquering” army razed all the prosperous villages to the ground. The frenzied “victorious” army annihilated cities and villages, houses and buildings to such degree that it horrified anybody who saw that. The Ottoman army enslaved young good looking boys, pretty girls and young women. There were no military tents without less than three of these boys and girls and the number of those tents where they took five or ten of them was countless”.

The pillages of the people whose land had become the battlefield of others went on the whole time. The kapikullari (Ottoman gendarmes = bandits) became the “rulers” of the land and mistreated the Armenians in every possible way they chose. Akdag, another Turkish historian writes, “According to the order issued by Yussuf Agha, his six Sipahi regiments had massacred the entire population of Ahiska around 1603”.

So much for the “good old days when Turks and Armenians lived like brothers” garbage. That after this much hardship the Armenian nation still exists is the manifestation of their will to survive.

In the same period, another nomadic people, the Kurds, whose animosity towards Persia was not hidden from the wily eyes of the Ottoman Tyrants, were migrated into Armenia for the double purpose of serving as a shield against Persia and harassing the Armenians to force them out of their ancestral land. The calamities they brought on the Armenians are the subject of countless Armenian songs and are reflected in historical records as well as in literature.

The pogroms of 1870s are recorded in "Armenia and the Campaign of 1877" by Charles Boswell Norman among other sources, the Hamidian genocides of 1894 – 1897 has been the subject of thousands of studies, mass killings were perpetrated against the Armenians of Eastern Armenia by the Tatars (later mutated into “Azeris”) in 1905 - 1906, and the bestialities become more sadistic in 1809 in Cilicia, culminate in 1915, continue under the genocidal bandit Kemal in Western Armenia and under the fake nation the “Azeris” throughout the Soviet era in Eastern Armenia, are once more manifested in the genocidal acts in Sumgait, Baku and Gandzak from 1988, in response to peaceful demonstrations of the Armenians to be rid of “Azeri” tyranny in Artsakh and are still going on in the form of Cultural Genocide in both “countries”: the main virus program state and its crapware, the bogus state installed north of the Arax River.

Cultural genocide is a desperate attempt to “conceal” the evidence of thousands of years of indigenous Armenian presence.

The murderer is destroying every trace of the victim to announce to the world that no Armenians have ever lived in “Eastern Anatolia” (a meaningless post-genocide term used instead of Armenia, which literally signifies Eastern East!), that the Turks who were still tent-dwelling nomads not very long ago, have had a civilization in “Anatolia” long before the theoretical Big Bang, and that all the great ancient civilizations in “Anatolia” and elsewhere in the universe were unequivocally Turkish.

To think that in this day and age, when every piece of history as recent as a few decades is regarded as precious human heritage regardless of the ethnicity who created it, the “modern”, “secular”, “European” Turkey is demolishing and smashing thousands of churches, monasteries, cemeteries, khachkars and every stone containing an Armenian inscription that had survived Alp Arslans, Teimurs, Abdulhamids and even Talats of this world, it becomes very difficult to consider the Turks as civilized human beings.

I have unfortunately no mind-reading capabilities, therefore I will not accuse you of not giving a damn about other nations' sufferings like you do. I therefore expect the same respect from you, and the benefit of doubt that my concern for suffering people might be, after all, genuine.

Finally, despite the fact that recognition will not serve for reconciliation for those like you, I have nothing against your struggle in order to have the genocide recognized. I am only getting angry with nations with their own ugly histories who choose to support your claims in a hypocritical way. ( I have nothing against countries like, the current government of South Africa recognizing the A.G ,because they had dealt honestly with their ugly recent past) Therefore I will neither ask for your permission to get angry with these hypocrats, nor fear that pointing a finger to them will be met with denial / projection accusations.

Again I've said it a zillion time I don't give a buck whether those Turk sucking xxxxxxs meekly recognize the Armenian Genocide or not, for me:

Armenians lived in their homeland for thousands of years, then the Turks invaded and after centuries of abuse they decided to empty Armenia of its indigenous inhabitants. As a result no Christian Armenians live in their ancestral home anymore. This is by definition called genocide, end of story.

I want my home back and I'll take it back. This is not the end of history. Centuries in lives of nations are like years for individuals.
The American empire will fall sooner than you can imagine. America is a paper tiger completely dependant on oil. When there's no more oil the Americans will not survive, because they cannot walk to the supermarket to buy bread. They have to use their cars, so they will starve.

We've seen them all come and go: Babylonians, Assyrians, Persians, Romans, Greeks, Arabs, Turks of all colors, Mongols, Crusaders, Mameluks, Czarist and Soviet Russians... they all invaded, destroyed, taxed, subdued, enslaved, used and abused Armenia. They split it between themselves, cut it to pieces, "founded" bogus countries on its territory but "Whatever you believe, we were here, and will be here". "As I said, this is our land and will be ours." Ararat cannot be chained forever and barbed wire cannot separate it from its legitimate people.

Explanation: The "italicized" lines were exact words of a Turkish poster who I was replying to.

[Vogelgrippe]

I wasn't going to answer this post because I have dealt with these issues a million times.
However, in order for you not to think I agree with you I'll answer, i.e. repeat what I've been saying all along on this forum for over a year.
Since you don't like them I won't use big fonts, but if you are going to change the subject again, I'm not going to respond.

I have made it clear a zillion times that I have a different approach than the majority of Armenians concerning the Armenian Genocide. This is no pretentious statement and I'm not the only one who thinks the way I do.
The problem with most of the Armenians is that they have presented the genocide of 1915 as the only horrible thing that happened to the Armenians in the millennium long Turkish oppression of the indigenous people of Armenia.
This has also given the Turks the denial weapons they employ all the time and refuse to take responsibility for their criminal deeds.

These include:
It was war… People died…
Armenians revolted against their “masters”, they got what they deserved.
It was the Armenian “terrorists” who killed up to 2.5 million Turks.
Armenians lived peacefully in the Ottoman “empire” until one day Armenians betrayed their “masters”.

By knowing that the Turks have started the extermination of the indigenous Christian peoples of the land they occupied from the moment they invaded the region, these pretexts are rendered void.

It's astonishing while you say you have followed my posts, you still pretend you never heard what I've been saying all along.
I'll have to paste the rest of my post from my mega textfile, because I don't feel like typing it all over for the trillionth time and you pretend you didn't see it:

That the Armenian Genocide neither started in 1915 nor ended after the end of WWI is as clear as daylight. The Turks started their organized turkification of Armenia and Asia Minor right from the ill day their hordes of primitive, barbaric ancestors set hoof this side of the Caspian.

One has only to browse the accounts of Armenian historians who witnessed their savageries as well as Ottoman records to see that those who suffered most under the crushing Turkish yoke were mainly the Christian reaya and above all the most numerous millet of them all, the Armenians.

The examples abound: the deportation of the Armenians of Caesarea to Cyprus in 1573 when the greatest Ottoman Architect Sinan asked Sultan Selim II the “favor” not to deport his family, which was “granted” by the “magnanimous” representative of god on earth.

Or think of more than three centuries of wars between Ottoman and Safavids of Persia that invariably took place on Armenian soil.
An example: Ottoman historian Peçevi testifies “the army of the sultan set out to Erzerum and Kars via Dyarbekir in 1554. Upon arriving in Eastern Armenia, the “conquering” army razed all the prosperous villages to the ground. The frenzied “victorious” army annihilated cities and villages, houses and buildings to such degree that it horrified anybody who saw that. The Ottoman army enslaved young good looking boys, pretty girls and young women. There were no military tents without less than three of these boys and girls and the number of those tents where they took five or ten of them was countless”.

The pillages of the people whose land had become the battlefield of others went on the whole time. The kapikullari (Ottoman gendarmes = bandits) became the “rulers” of the land and mistreated the Armenians in every possible way they chose. Akdag, another Turkish historian writes, “According to the order issued by Yussuf Agha, his six Sipahi regiments had massacred the entire population of Ahiska around 1603”.

So much for the “good old days when Turks and Armenians lived like brothers” garbage. That after this much hardship the Armenian nation still exists is the manifestation of their will to survive.

In the same period, another nomadic people, the Kurds, whose animosity towards Persia was not hidden from the wily eyes of the Ottoman Tyrants, were migrated into Armenia for the double purpose of serving as a shield against Persia and harassing the Armenians to force them out of their ancestral land. The calamities they brought on the Armenians are the subject of countless Armenian songs and are reflected in historical records as well as in literature.

The pogroms of 1870s are recorded in "Armenia and the Campaign of 1877" by Charles Boswell Norman among other sources, the Hamidian genocides of 1894 – 1897 has been the subject of thousands of studies, mass killings were perpetrated against the Armenians of Eastern Armenia by the Tatars (later mutated into “Azeris”) in 1905 - 1906, and the bestialities become more sadistic in 1809 in Cilicia, culminate in 1915, continue under the genocidal bandit Kemal in Western Armenia and under the fake nation the “Azeris” throughout the Soviet era in Eastern Armenia, are once more manifested in the genocidal acts in Sumgait, Baku and Gandzak from 1988, in response to peaceful demonstrations of the Armenians to be rid of “Azeri” tyranny in Artsakh and are still going on in the form of Cultural Genocide in both “countries”: the main virus program state and its crapware, the bogus state installed north of the Arax River.

Cultural genocide is a desperate attempt to “conceal” the evidence of thousands of years of indigenous Armenian presence.

The murderer is destroying every trace of the victim to announce to the world that no Armenians have ever lived in “Eastern Anatolia” (a meaningless post-genocide term used instead of Armenia, which literally signifies Eastern East!), that the Turks who were still tent-dwelling nomads not very long ago, have had a civilization in “Anatolia” long before the theoretical Big Bang, and that all the great ancient civilizations in “Anatolia” and elsewhere in the universe were unequivocally Turkish.

To think that in this day and age, when every piece of history as recent as a few decades is regarded as precious human heritage regardless of the ethnicity who created it, the “modern”, “secular”, “European” Turkey is demolishing and smashing thousands of churches, monasteries, cemeteries, khachkars and every stone containing an Armenian inscription that had survived Alp Arslans, Teimurs, Abdulhamids and even Talats of this world, it becomes very difficult to consider the Turks as civilized human beings.


Again I've said it a zillion time I don't give a buck whether those Turk sucking xxxxxxs meekly recognize the Armenian Genocide or not, for me:

Armenians lived in their homeland for thousands of years, then the Turks invaded and after centuries of abuse they decided to empty Armenia of its indigenous inhabitants. As a result no Christian Armenians live in their ancestral home anymore. This is by definition called genocide, end of story.

I want my home back and I'll take it back. This is not the end of history. Centuries in lives of nations are like years for individuals.
The American empire will fall sooner than you can imagine. America is a paper tiger completely dependant on oil. When there's no more oil the Americans will not survive, because they cannot walk to the supermarket to buy bread. They have to use their cars, so they will starve.

We've seen them all come and go: Babylonians, Assyrians, Persians, Romans, Greeks, Arabs, Turks of all colors, Mongols, Crusaders, Mameluks, Czarist and Soviet Russians... they all invaded, destroyed, taxed, subdued, enslaved, used and abused Armenia. They split it between themselves, cut it to pieces, "founded" bogus countries on its territory but "Whatever you believe, we were here, and will be here". "As I said, this is our land and will be ours." Ararat cannot be chained forever and barbed wire cannot separate it from its legitimate people.

Explanation: The "italicized" lines were exact words of a Turkish poster who I was replying to.

Either I thoroughly misunderstand you, or you agree with most of what I say in your own fashion. I was openly acknowledging both of your statements that you ''have a different approach than the majority of Armenians concerning the Armenian Genocide, and that ''you are not the only one who thinks the way you do.

I also sincerely do not understand why you accuse me of trying to change the subject. If you want to play you 'diagnosis' and manipulation game, go ahead and play it. If you really think that I am deliberately not responding to any question or claim of your, please be more specific about it.

Even though I never heard about the 'famous' Ottoman historian Peçevi, let me give you the benefit of doubt, and assume that his existence and accounts are truthful. Let me also concede, even without Peçevi's accounts, that the Ottoman rule was far from perfect, and heavy taxing, corruption, and discrimination was regular procedure. Only few Turks would deny this, and your denial of this (Turkish) self criticism serves only your manipulation purposes. The same is true for the destruction of Armenian churches and monuments in Eastern Turkey, which has been stopped and slowly being reversed. This is exactly why the situation of these monuments finally created a public outcry, and restoration works have started in many historic places, including the Monastery of Akhdamar (I might have misspelled it).

Back to the account of 'Mr. Peçevi'. Do you realize that, in that time period (mid 1500's), Spain was busy exterminating its Jews and Moslems, and France was busy persecuting its Hugenots (French Protestants). So thourough and compete was their work, that Spain remained 'Jew and Moslem-free' until recent labor migrations, and France remained 'Protestant-free' until the annexation of Protestant Alsace in 1945. So despite the Ottoman attrocities and heavy taxing system, Ottoman conquests never resulted in the annihilation of the native peoples of the conquested lands. How else would then Ottomans find 1,5 million Armenians, almost 500 years after their conquest of historical Armenia, and give substance to genocide claims to start with?

All of this is certainly not meant to excuse Ottoman attrocities five centuries, for centuries, and three centuries ago, but just to give you an idea about how uglier and more violent our world was by then. Nobody thinks and expects you to believe how tolerant, just, and respectful the Ottomans were, but they have been the lesser of the evils (read:empires) until mid 1800s. Be aware that the continued existence and eventual independence of Bulgarians, Greeks, Albanians, and Macedonians (just counting the countries whose entire territories were under Ottoman administration) is more than sufficient as proof. Obviously they were heavily taxed, frequently harassed, and sometimes shamefully mistreated during their lives under the Ottoman administration, but they continued their existence for centuries, and eventually rised up against Ottomans to demand and achieve independence.

Moreover, it is a historical fact that the Greeks of present Turkey and the Turks of present Greece were subjected to a mandatory population exchange, which was officially agreed on by Turkey and Greece in 1924. As a result, 1.5 million Greeks left Turkey for good, while 600 thousand Turks abandoned Greece forever. Therefore, your statement that the absence of Christians on Turkish soil BY ITSELF ONLY does not prove or disprove genocide claims. If you refer to Armenians only, then you have to think about 100.000 or so Armenians who still live peacefully in Turkey.

Taking all of this factors into account, it remains up to you to decide whether to try to settle with Turks regarding the genocide subject, or attack them with all you got. On an individual basis, I acknowledge and appreciate your candor in this matter, and deeply suspect that many more Armenians think like you, but keep silent about it for fear of harming their recognition cause.

In international relations arena, however, the existence and significant number of people like you obviously forces Turkey to a justifiably defensive stance.The existence and significance of those who think like you make it obvious that you do not ask only recognition from Turkey, but also land, blood, and mortal revenge as well. For me, and for most patriotic Turks, there is no difference between ceding Agri Dagi to Armenia and ceding Istanbul or Ankara to Armenia, because we know that once you start being robbed, there is usually no end to it.

[Vogelgrippe]

Thanks, you think right - the burden of proof is on you... However, I took the liberty to do a google search on with the words "algerian genocide" I have to say most of the sites that pop up are either (1) Turkish (2) Regarding Turkeys desire to recognize the Algerian Genocide because of Frances recognition of the Armenian Genocide or (3) posts in forums like this by random people. Now if that doesn't tell you something there is a problem. I don't see any (let alone a significant number of) Algerian groups fighting for recognition, nor do I see any (let alone a significant number of) credible historians recognizing the Algerian Genocide. I haven't been able to find any statement from the International Assocation of Genocide Scholars or the Institute for the Study of Genocide, both groups unbiased Genocide experts. If they did recognize it please post a link or document.

So, in short while an Algerian Genocide may have occurred, there is little to no information on it, while there is a world of information and confirmation of the Armenian Genocide. I'll reiterate that it's quite transparent whats going on here between Turks, Turkey and their 'moral fight for the victims of Algeria'...

Hovik, I certainly do not fulfill my 'burden of proof' by this article alone, but this is a good and relevant starter. This article in the South African newspaper certainly prove that 'Algerian Genocide' concept was not invented by Turks in order to retaliate to French support for Armenian claims. This is an ongoing real issue, and it strains relations between France and Algeria
------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.sundaytimes.co.za/zones/sundaytimesNEW/basket6st/basket6st1147236048.aspx

Wednesday May 10, 2006 06:40 - (SA)


PARIS - France played down a stinging attack by Algerian President Abdelaziz Bouteflika, after he repeated claims that France's colonisation of the north African country had been "genocidal".

The foreign ministry in Paris said it saw Bouteflika's comments, made on Monday on the 61st anniversary of a massacre of Algerian civilians by French troops, as leaving room for co-operation.

"We understand, from these statements, that there is a shared will to move forward and to strengthen bilateral relations," said ministry spokesman Denis Simonneau.

In a declaration read at the site of the massacre in Guelma, eastern Algeria, Bouteflika described France's colonisation of his country, which it ruled from 1830 to 1962, as "long, brutal, genocidal".

Algeria, he said, had a "fundamental right" to a "public and solemn apology for the crime of colonisation committed against our people".

The Algerian leader dismissed suggestions of a "crisis" between Paris and Algiers, but said there was "still much to do in order to fulfil our shared ambition to go further together".

The French foreign ministry declined to comment on Bouteflika's use of the word "genocidal".

Bouteflika raised tensions last month by declaring that colonial France had committed a "genocide of Algerian identity".

Relations between France and Algeria have been strained since February 2005 when the French government passed a law - later repealed - requiring schools to stress the "positive role" of French colonialism.

Plans for a "friendship treaty" between the two countries have been shelved indefinitely.

Sapa-AFP

[Vogelgrippe]

Hovik, this part is about the Belgium's horrible acts in Congo. It is from an Australian website. I only paste excerpts here since the article is too long.

http://www.moreorless.au.com/killers/leopold.html#kills

King Léopold II of Belgium
Country: Congo Free State (present-day Democratic Republic of Congo) and Belgium.

Kill tally: Five to 15 million Congolese (the indigenous inhabitants of the Congo River basin).

------------------------
1904 - Roger Casement's 62-page report on the CFS is published. It's descriptions of hostage taking, floggings, mutilation, forced labour, and murder cause a public outrage.

In March, with international concern over the treatment of the Congolese growing, Morel and Casement found the Congo Reform Association (CRA) in Britain, providing a focus for one of the first human rights movements of the 20th Century. A branch of the association is set up in the US later in the year.

Morel gives talks and publishes books and pamphlets to publicise the plight of the Congolese, and he does not shy away from using information smuggled out of the CFS by missionaries and Léopold's employees, including graphic photographs of the mutilations suffered by the regime's victims.

This documentary evidence, and the photographs in particular, proves crucial in the campaign to refute Léopold's denials.

In Britain the CRA receives the support of many leading figures, including Arthur Conan Doyle, the writer and creator of Sherlock Holmes mystery series.

Taking the cause to the US, Morel meets with President Theodore Roosevelt and gains the support of the African-American educator Booker T. Washington and the writer Mark Twain.

In an article titled 'Cruelty in the Congo Country', Washington writes, "There was never anything in American slavery that could be compared to the barbarous conditions existing today in the Congo Free State".

Léopold attempts to stop the flow of information coming from the Congo and counter the campaign of the Congo Reform Association but the public mood has turned too far against him and the "rubber atrocities" being committed in the CFS.

Mark Twain calls Léopold the slayer of 15 million Congolese and a "greedy, grasping, avaricious, cynical, bloodthirsty old goat". His dark and graphic satire 'King Léopold's Soliloquy: A Defence of His Congo Rule' is published in pamphlet form by the American Congo Reform Association in September 1905.

"I have spent other millions on religion and art, and what do I get for it? Nothing. Not a compliment," Twain imagines Léopold saying in the soliloquy. "These generosities are studiedly ignored, in print. In print I get nothing but slanders - and slanders again - and still slanders, and slanders on top of slanders! Grant them true, what of it? They are slanders all the same when uttered against a king."

-------------

1908 - On 10 August the Belgium Parliament finally acts, annexing the CFS under the 'Colonial Charter'. The colony is renamed the Belgian Congo and Léopold's power is limited to a constitutional rather than personal role. In recognition of the "great sacrifices" he has made for the Congo, Léopold receives a large payout.

Over the time of Léopold's rule the population of the Congo has declined from an estimated 20-30 million to less than nine million.

Léopold attempts to destroy the evidence of the genocide, ordering that the CFS archives in Belgium and the Congo be burnt.

The Belgium Parliament will hold no formal commission of inquiry into the human rights abuses that occurred in the CFS, and no officials will be held to account.

Twelve months after the annexation the Belgian colonial minister travels to the Congo. On his return he denies that the human rights abuses have occurred.

[Joseph]

Hovik, I certainly do not fulfill my 'burden of proof' by this article alone, but this is a good and relevant starter. This article in the South African newspaper certainly prove that 'Algerian Genocide' concept was not invented by Turks in order to retaliate to French support for Armenian claims. This is an ongoing real issue, and it strains relations between France and Algeria
------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.sundaytimes.co.za/zones/sundaytimesNEW/basket6st/basket6st1147236048.aspx

Wednesday May 10, 2006 06:40 - (SA)


PARIS - France played down a stinging attack by Algerian President Abdelaziz Bouteflika, after he repeated claims that France's colonisation of the north African country had been "genocidal".

The foreign ministry in Paris said it saw Bouteflika's comments, made on Monday on the 61st anniversary of a massacre of Algerian civilians by French troops, as leaving room for co-operation.

"We understand, from these statements, that there is a shared will to move forward and to strengthen bilateral relations," said ministry spokesman Denis Simonneau.

In a declaration read at the site of the massacre in Guelma, eastern Algeria, Bouteflika described France's colonisation of his country, which it ruled from 1830 to 1962, as "long, brutal, genocidal".

Algeria, he said, had a "fundamental right" to a "public and solemn apology for the crime of colonisation committed against our people".

The Algerian leader dismissed suggestions of a "crisis" between Paris and Algiers, but said there was "still much to do in order to fulfil our shared ambition to go further together".

The French foreign ministry declined to comment on Bouteflika's use of the word "genocidal".

Bouteflika raised tensions last month by declaring that colonial France had committed a "genocide of Algerian identity".

Relations between France and Algeria have been strained since February 2005 when the French government passed a law - later repealed - requiring schools to stress the "positive role" of French colonialism.

Plans for a "friendship treaty" between the two countries have been shelved indefinitely.

Sapa-AFP

There was a genocide against the Algierians by the French just as the Beligians committed a horific genocide against native peoples in the Congo.

[Joseph]

Hovik, this part is about the Belgium's horrible acts in Congo. It is from an Australian website. I only paste excerpts here since the article is too long.

http://www.moreorless.au.com/killers/leopold.html#kills

King Léopold II of Belgium
Country: Congo Free State (present-day Democratic Republic of Congo) and Belgium.

Kill tally: Five to 15 million Congolese (the indigenous inhabitants of the Congo River basin).

------------------------
1904 - Roger Casement's 62-page report on the CFS is published. It's descriptions of hostage taking, floggings, mutilation, forced labour, and murder cause a public outrage.

In March, with international concern over the treatment of the Congolese growing, Morel and Casement found the Congo Reform Association (CRA) in Britain, providing a focus for one of the first human rights movements of the 20th Century. A branch of the association is set up in the US later in the year.

Morel gives talks and publishes books and pamphlets to publicise the plight of the Congolese, and he does not shy away from using information smuggled out of the CFS by missionaries and Léopold's employees, including graphic photographs of the mutilations suffered by the regime's victims.

This documentary evidence, and the photographs in particular, proves crucial in the campaign to refute Léopold's denials.

In Britain the CRA receives the support of many leading figures, including Arthur Conan Doyle, the writer and creator of Sherlock Holmes mystery series.

Taking the cause to the US, Morel meets with President Theodore Roosevelt and gains the support of the African-American educator Booker T. Washington and the writer Mark Twain.

In an article titled 'Cruelty in the Congo Country', Washington writes, "There was never anything in American slavery that could be compared to the barbarous conditions existing today in the Congo Free State".

Léopold attempts to stop the flow of information coming from the Congo and counter the campaign of the Congo Reform Association but the public mood has turned too far against him and the "rubber atrocities" being committed in the CFS.

Mark Twain calls Léopold the slayer of 15 million Congolese and a "greedy, grasping, avaricious, cynical, bloodthirsty old goat". His dark and graphic satire 'King Léopold's Soliloquy: A Defence of His Congo Rule' is published in pamphlet form by the American Congo Reform Association in September 1905.

"I have spent other millions on religion and art, and what do I get for it? Nothing. Not a compliment," Twain imagines Léopold saying in the soliloquy. "These generosities are studiedly ignored, in print. In print I get nothing but slanders - and slanders again - and still slanders, and slanders on top of slanders! Grant them true, what of it? They are slanders all the same when uttered against a king."

-------------

1908 - On 10 August the Belgium Parliament finally acts, annexing the CFS under the 'Colonial Charter'. The colony is renamed the Belgian Congo and Léopold's power is limited to a constitutional rather than personal role. In recognition of the "great sacrifices" he has made for the Congo, Léopold receives a large payout.

Over the time of Léopold's rule the population of the Congo has declined from an estimated 20-30 million to less than nine million.

Léopold attempts to destroy the evidence of the genocide, ordering that the CFS archives in Belgium and the Congo be burnt.

The Belgium Parliament will hold no formal commission of inquiry into the human rights abuses that occurred in the CFS, and no officials will be held to account.

Twelve months after the annexation the Belgian colonial minister travels to the Congo. On his return he denies that the human rights abuses have occurred.

Let's not forget that the Germans slaughtered an entire tribe, the Hereros in Southern Africa in the early 1900's.

[imported_Hellektor]

Either I thoroughly misunderstand you, or you agree with most of what I say in your own fashion. I was openly acknowledging both of your statements that you ''have a different approach than the majority of Armenians concerning the Armenian Genocide, and that ''you are not the only one who thinks the way you do.

I also sincerely do not understand (I know. H.) why you accuse me of trying to change the subject. If you want to play you 'diagnosis' and manipulation game, go ahead and play it. If you really think that I am deliberately not responding to any question or claim of your, please be more specific about it.

Even though I never heard about the 'famous' Ottoman historian Peçevi, let me give you the benefit of doubt, and assume that his existence and accounts are truthful. Let me also concede, even without Peçevi's accounts, that the Ottoman rule was far from perfect, and heavy taxing, corruption, and discrimination was regular procedure. Only few Turks would deny this, and your denial of this (Turkish) self criticism serves only your manipulation purposes. The same is true for the destruction of Armenian churches and monuments in Eastern Turkey, which has been stopped and slowly being reversed. This is exactly why the situation of these monuments finally created a public outcry, and restoration works have started in many historic places, including the Monastery of Akhdamar (I might have misspelled it).

Back to the account of 'Mr. Peçevi'. Do you realize that, in that time period (mid 1500's), Spain was busy exterminating its Jews and Moslems, and France was busy persecuting its Hugenots (French Protestants). So thourough and compete was their work, that Spain remained 'Jew and Moslem-free' until recent labor migrations, and France remained 'Protestant-free' until the annexation of Protestant Alsace in 1945. So despite the Ottoman attrocities and heavy taxing system, Ottoman conquests never resulted in the annihilation of the native peoples of the conquested lands. How else would then Ottomans find 1,5 million Armenians, almost 500 years after their conquest of historical Armenia, and give substance to genocide claims to start with?

All of this is certainly not meant to excuse Ottoman attrocities five centuries, for centuries, and three centuries ago, but just to give you an idea about how uglier and more violent our world was by then. Nobody thinks and expects you to believe how tolerant, just, and respectful the Ottomans were, but they have been the lesser of the evils (read:empires) until mid 1800s. Be aware that the continued existence and eventual independence of Bulgarians, Greeks, Albanians, and Macedonians (just counting the countries whose entire territories were under Ottoman administration) is more than sufficient as proof. Obviously they were heavily taxed, frequently harassed, and sometimes shamefully mistreated during their lives under the Ottoman administration, but they continued their existence for centuries, and eventually rised up against Ottomans to demand and achieve independence.

Moreover, it is a historical fact that the Greeks of present Turkey and the Turks of present Greece were subjected to a mandatory population exchange, which was officially agreed on by Turkey and Greece in 1924. As a result, 1.5 million Greeks left Turkey for good, while 600 thousand Turks abandoned Greece forever. Therefore, your statement that the absence of Christians on Turkish soil BY ITSELF ONLY does not prove or disprove genocide claims. If you refer to Armenians only, then you have to think about 100.000 or so Armenians who still live peacefully in Turkey.

Taking all of this factors into account, it remains up to you to decide whether to try to settle with Turks regarding the genocide subject, or attack them with all you got. On an individual basis, I acknowledge and appreciate your candor in this matter, and deeply suspect that many more Armenians think like you, but keep silent about it for fear of harming their recognition cause.

In international relations arena, however, the existence and significant number of people like you obviously forces Turkey to a justifiably defensive stance.The existence and significance of those who think like you make it obvious that you do not ask only recognition from Turkey, but also land, blood, and mortal revenge as well. For me, and for most patriotic Turks, there is no difference between ceding Agri Dagi to Armenia and ceding Istanbul or Ankara to Armenia, because we know that once you start being robbed, there is usually no end to it.

More than 90% of all remaining Armenian heritage in Turkish occupied Armenia has been destroyed after 1950s. These include over 2000 KNOWN churches and monasteries, countless cemeteries, stone-crosses and everything having Armenian inscriptions on it. (All Armenian inscription means "smash me into pieces" for Turks). The "restoration" of Sourb Khach (Holy Cross) church of Akhtamar Island under "pressure" from the Euroxxxs is more in the same way of what has happened to Ani. Wiping everything that shows the Armenian origin of the monuments, otherwise why did Turkey not allow architects and experts in the field from Armenia who know best how to restore Armenian heritage to participate in the project?

_______________________________________

I know from Turkish point of view my tone is regarded as offensive, but when I say you guys are brainwashed or change the subject I mean it from the bottom of my heart. I'm not saying that to offend. Your post confirms this for the millionth time.

First off let me tell you persecutions against minorities of a the same blood with a different religion/ideology is as old as ideology itself.
As examples I can tell you the suppression of the Tondrakians in Armenia or the persecutions of Christians in Iran in the time of the Sassanid king Shapur II (reign: 309 - 379), more recently, the Stalin era purges, even more recently... well I can't talk about this one!

What I mean by you changing the subject is that it's true persecution has always existed; horrible acts of mass slaughter have been carried out throughout history, but there is a clear difference between these acts of a majority in power against the ideological minorities of the same people and the Armenian Genocide. While they were trying to hold on to power and they thought they were in danger by these ideologies, the Armenians were wiped out only because the Turks wanted to usurp Armenians' legitimate homeland to realize a sick dream that was called pan-Turkism.

There was no betrayal of the Armenians and no danger from the millions of women, children and elderly who were driven to the Syrian desert to roast or who were drowned in the Black Sea and the Tigris River or were slaughtered in a region as far from the front as Angora and Smyrna.
Contrary to the insistence from the Turkish denial camp, there were no millions of armed Armenian rebels who would help the Russians to topple the Ottoman Tyranny. I have posed the following question dozens of times and no Turks have ever answered it:

If all those millions of women, children and elderly were armed to their teeth rebels, how come they didn't rebel and walked like sheep to roast in the desert?

Let me reply the rest of your post in Indian (as in cowboys and Indians) to avoid any confusion.

French indigenous people of France.
Spanish indigenous people of Spain.
Arab NOT indigenous people of Spain.
Arab invaded Spain.
Spanish don't want Arab rule them.
Spanish don't want ruled by Muslims.
Spanish have right to throw out invader.

Armenian indigenous people of Armenia.
Turk NOT indigenous to Armenia NOR Asia Minor NOR "Middle-East", NOR Caucasus, NOR Mediterranean NOR Europe.
Indigenous people Armenia and the others NOT invited Turks to rule over them.
Armenian despised the invading tyrants.
Armenian cursed the UNINVITED, NON-INDIGENOUS, INVADING Turks every day for a thousand years.
Armenian always wanted to live free.
Armenian love freedom like other people.
Armenian did not want the fukking "tolerant" Ottoman rule.
Armenian had all the right to liberate their home from the invading, genocidal plunderers.

Your brainwash let's you accept the freedom of "Bulgarians, Greeks, Albanians, and Macedonians" but it does not allow you to accept the same thing for the Armenians,

because accepting the freedom of Armenia = the death of pan-Turkism/Kemalism.

I'm sure you won't be able to fathom all of this, and you will do one or more of the following:

I. copy/paste unrelated material to divert attention from the AG. = changing the subject.
II. replace "Turk" with "Armenian" and vice versa and give a distorted account of history = projection.
III. taunt me with being insensitive to all other atrocities = turn criticism at me, making me appear the bad guy.
IV. refrain from responding.

[Vogelgrippe]

More than 90% of all remaining Armenian heritage in Turkish occupied Armenia has been destroyed after 1950s. These include over 2000 KNOWN churches and monasteries, countless cemeteries, stone-crosses and everything having Armenian inscriptions on it. (All Armenian inscription means "smash me into pieces" for Turks). The "restoration" of Sourb Khach (Holy Cross) church of Akhtamar Island under "pressure" from the Euroxxxs is more in the same way of what has happened to Ani. Wiping everything that shows the Armenian origin of the monuments, otherwise why did Turkey not allow architects and experts in the field from Armenia who know best how to restore Armenian heritage to participate in the project?

_______________________________________

I know from Turkish point of view my tone is regarded as offensive, but when I say you guys are brainwashed or change the subject I mean it from the bottom of my heart. I'm not saying that to offend. Your post confirms this for the millionth time.

First off let me tell you persecutions against minorities of a the same blood with a different religion/ideology is as old as ideology itself.
As examples I can tell you the suppression of the Tondrakians in Armenia or the persecutions of Christians in Iran in the time of the Sassanid king Shapur II (reign: 309 - 379), more recently, the Stalin era purges, even more recently... well I can't talk about this one!

What I mean by you changing the subject is that it's true persecution has always existed; horrible acts of mass slaughter have been carried out throughout history, but there is a clear difference between these acts of a majority in power against the ideological minorities of the same people and the Armenian Genocide. While they were trying to hold on to power and they thought they were in danger by these ideologies, the Armenians were wiped out only because the Turks wanted to usurp Armenians' legitimate homeland to realize a sick dream that was called pan-Turkism.

There was no betrayal of the Armenians and no danger from the millions of women, children and elderly who were driven to the Syrian desert to roast or who were drowned in the Black Sea and the Tigris River or were slaughtered in a region as far from the front as Angora and Smyrna.
Contrary to the insistence from the Turkish denial camp, there were no millions of armed Armenian rebels who would help the Russians to topple the Ottoman Tyranny. I have posed the following question dozens of times and no Turks have ever answered it:

If all those millions of women, children and elderly were armed to their teeth rebels, how come they didn't rebel and walked like sheep to roast in the desert?

Let me reply the rest of your post in Indian (as in cowboys and Indians) to avoid any confusion.

French indigenous people of France.
Spanish indigenous people of Spain.
Arab NOT indigenous people of Spain.
Arab invaded Spain.
Spanish don't want Arab rule them.
Spanish don't want ruled by Muslims.
Spanish have right to throw out invader.

Armenian indigenous people of Armenia.
Turk NOT indigenous to Armenia NOR Asia Minor NOR "Middle-East", NOR Caucasus, NOR Mediterranean NOR Europe.
Indigenous people Armenia and the others NOT invited Turks to rule over them.
Armenian despised the invading tyrants.
Armenian cursed the UNINVITED, NON-INDIGENOUS, INVADING Turks every day for a thousand years.
Armenian always wanted to live free.
Armenian love freedom like other people.
Armenian did not want the fukking "tolerant" Ottoman rule.
Armenian had all the right to liberate their home from the invading, genocidal plunderers.

Your brainwash let's you accept the freedom of "Bulgarians, Greeks, Albanians, and Macedonians" but it does not allow you to accept the same thing for the Armenians,

because accepting the freedom of Armenia = the death of pan-Turkism/Kemalism.

I'm sure you won't be able to fathom all of this, and you will do one or more of the following:

I. copy/paste unrelated material to divert attention from the AG. = changing the subject.
II. replace "Turk" with "Armenian" and vice versa and give a distorted account of history = projection.
III. taunt me with being insensitive to all other atrocities = turn criticism at me, making me appear the bad guy.
IV. refrain from responding.

Let me start by responding to the final part of your response.

I) I did not cut and paste any unrelated material, neither when replying to you nor anywhere else.

II) I never replaced Turk with Armenian, even though I pointed to some similarities in our mentalities in some previous postings of mine.

III) I explicitly stated in my previous postings that you have a natural unalienable right to be more sensitive about the suffering of Armenians', simply because you are Armenian as well. The same is true for me regarding the suffering of Turks. As long as we do not turn a blind eye to other attrocities, there is nothing wrong with being more sensitive about one's own nationality. How does this acknowledging statement taunt you with being insensitive toward other attrocities? Give me a break!

IV)Here I am, responding!


About the Bulgarians, Greeks, Albanians who won their independence, I do not see them any different from Armenians. The only difference is that your irredentist mentality prevents you from seing the fact that the short independece of Armenia (1918-1920) was violated by the U.S.S.R, not by Turkey. What you call 'the freedom of Armenia', is nothing but chauvinistic gibberish, which aims to expand the already free Armenia.

About the Moors in Spain, you may have some validity when you refer to the proto-nations theory, but this does not explain the French attrocities against Heugenots, who were as French as their persecutors, only Protestants. You seem to acknowledge this vaguely, but you miss the big point that these people were annihilated and uprooted five centuries ago, while your hated Ottomans welcomed (Jews) and tolerated minorities.

About the poor Armenians who had to march the Syrian desert, I totally agree with you that they were not armed, and were mostly women, elderly, and children. The Ottoman Armenian men, on the other hand, were either serving patrioticly in the Ottoman Army, or serving treacherously in the Russian Army, or involving in guerilla warfare against Ottoman troops. There is a big dispute about who constituted the majority among these three groups, but it is an undisputed fact that all three groups were significant in numbers

About the destruction of Armenian monuments in Turkey, I told you that it was a shame, and that the process is being stopped and reversed now. You may cuss, comment, and hiss about why Turkey is doing the right thing now, but this does not change the fact that Turkey is currently doing its best to preserve Armenian churches and monuments.

Finally, I urge you to come up with any books or documents which prove that Eastern Turkey had an Armenian majority population prior to 1915, which could substantiate your claim that 'your homeland was lost due to genocide'. With the exception of downtown Van, Armenians constituted a minority (however a sizeable one, between 20 to 35 percent) in the Six Vilayets, and all historians confirm that. In other words, Armenians lived as a minority in Ottoman Empire, even in the regions you call as Armenia, they have been a minority for several centuries. You can get mad about it, cuss, swear, threaten, or mock, but this won't help you find one scientific source which shows that Armenians constituted a majority in Eastern Anatolia in 1915, 1815, 1715, or 1615. And if you hate Turks because sometime between eleventh and fourteenth century they rendered you a minority in your 'homeland', there is simply no cure for your disease.