Turkey and the EU

[phantom]

Idealistically, Turkish-Armenian border should be opened. However, there are few sensitivities and difficulties stemming from the Turkish side;

- There is a risk that this Turkish gesture will go unnoticed. Among Armenians in general, as well as among Armenians here in this forum, there is a widespread belief that each Turkish goodwill gesture is nothing but a PR show for the EU. Therefore, it is possible, if not certain, that Armenia will not even bother to reciprocate this act of goodwill, mainly because its foreign policy is based upon the assumed Turkish lack of goodwill.

I don't think it would go unnoticed at all. Furthermore, I think the flow of trade and commerce between the two countries would contribute a great deal to building friendly relationships and ultimately softening each society up to the other.

As for Turkish expectations of reciprocation, I'm not sure what Turkey expects or wants from Armenians. If the purpose of opening the border is to get Armenians to give up their right to acknowledgment of the Genocide, then Turkey's gesture obviously lacks goodwill. If the purpose of opening the border is simply to allow for the flow of trade and commerce between the two countries, then Turkey will not ask for or expect something more from Armenians other than the flow of commerce and trade, in which case, Armenians will not assume that there is lack of goodwill.

One more point I'll make through an analogy: if you are strangling someone and decide to stop strangling him, is it right for you to expect him to give you something in return for your release of him? If there really is goodwill in your decision to stop strangling him, then you will not ask for something in return. Otherwise, it is nothing more than extortion, isn't it?

- There is an influential Azeri lobby in Turkey. Contrary to some Armenians, who claim that entire Azerbaijan historically belongs to Armenia, Azeris have more modest claims. They just want that their occupied lands should be returned to them. While I personally believe that they are ready to make some concessions regarding Karabagh, they are more strict about other occupied regions of Azerbaijan proper.

Which Armenians claim that entire Azerbaijan belongs to Armenia? Does the Karabagh government or the government of Armenia, or any diaspora group make such a claim? I know of no such claim being made by any Armenian group. You are attributing the words of a few lunatics to the entire nation of Armenia. Then you should also mention that there are many lunatic Turks as well as long-established Turkish nationalist groups (Grey Wolves come to mind) who claim that the entire land mass from the Aegean and Mediterranean to Mongolia belongs to Turks. That's not so modest is it!

As for your personal beliefs about what Azeris are willing to concede, please cite just one news article or statement from an Azeri government official or body that has even hinted that Azerbaijan would be willing to give up its misguided claims to Karabagh proper. Armenia and Karabagh have said over and over again that they would be willing to give up 5 of the 7 disputed territories surrounding Karabagh as soon as the Azeris agree to leave Karabagh proper alone. The two territories they refuse to give up are needed to ensure that Karabagh has a lifeline to Armenia so that it is not isolated and vulnerable to another Azeri attack.

My personal opinion is blockading and economically weaker neighbor (read: Turkey) , as well as occupying the territories of a neighbor (read:Armenia) are ugly acts regardless of how nicely you redress and package it. I agree therefore agree with you that both should end soon, while I disagree with you about who should take the first step.

Yes, both should end soon. But you must realize that Armenia is a vulnerable soldier surrounded by superior enemy forces. It's only defense is that it has a knife to the throat of one of its enemies' general. If it puts the knife down, then its enemies will surely pounce on it and kill it. Thus, it cannot put the knife down until the enemies have dispersed and agreed to a truce. Turkey should understand this and make the first conciliatory move. Being the stronger and much more threatening party, it is incumbant on Turkey to show the goodwill first. Armenia has no choice but to be defensive and gaurded.

[hitite]

I think it would be interesting to read the actual ruling of the court rather than a Turkish newspaper interpretation of it. The ruling seems to be based more on a lack of standing by the Armenian plaintiffs rather than any review of the merits of the Armenian plaintiffs' claims. In fact, even the Turkish newspaper interpretation states that the court did not even consider the Turkish arguments. From that article that you linked, it cannot be said that the European Union has not conditioned acceptance of the Armenian Genocide as part of Turkey's responsibilities before entering the EU. Personally, I doubt that the EU will actually enforce such a condition on Turkey or that Turkey would accept such a condition anytime soon. The Turkish government is still too belligerent and full of false pride to accept such a thing even though it would be the right thing to do.

Sorry Phantom, I forgot that any Turkish source is either not true, deceptive or biased if not just full of crap. Hoviks source was Armenian so I guess you had no second thoughts but I hope the below direct source to the court ruling shows how single sidedly some Armenians like Hovik "present" their arguments:

Please click on case T-346/03_1

http://curia.europa.eu/jurisp/cgi-bin/form.pl?lang=en&Submit=Submit&alldocs=alldocs&docj=docj&docop=docop&docor=docor&docjo=docjo&numaff=&datefs=&datefe=&nomusuel=Krikorian+and+Others&domaine=&mots=&resmax=100

Contrary to common Armenian belief I see on this forum the recognition of A.g. as a precondition to Turkish accession to the EU has no legal basis. It can only be ***ABUSED*** politically by people who dont know what an Armenian is or who dont give a horny toads zit about the genoicde.

[Vogelgrippe]

Sorry Phantom, I forgot that any Turkish source is either not true, deceptive or biased if not just full of crap. Hoviks source was Armenian so I guess you had no second thoughts but I hope the below direct source to the court ruling shows how single sidedly some Armenians like Hovik "present" their arguments:

Please click on case T-346/03_1

http://curia.europa.eu/jurisp/cgi-bi...ts=&resmax=100

Hititecigim, do not forget also that whenever Turks make any gesture of goodwill, concession, or positive step, it is either fake, or for pure propaganda purposes (mainly towards the EU), or for devilish Machievellian aims. Any sources which are provided by Turks are either fake, or owned by pro-Turkish agents, even if they are from an international organization.

When Armenians make, or even talk about, these gestures, it is out of pure goodwill, nobility, magnanimity, and sincerety. Any attempt to look for a selfish gain behind such a gesture is an act of utmost paranoia and cynicism.
Any sources which are provided by Armenians, even if they are from Armenian lobbying organizations such as anca, panarmenian, etc..., their authenticity
shall not be doubted or questioned

[Vogelgrippe]

I don't think it would go unnoticed at all. Furthermore, I think the flow of trade and commerce between the two countries would contribute a great deal to building friendly relationships and ultimately softening each society up to the other.

As for Turkish expectations of reciprocation, I'm not sure what Turkey expects or wants from Armenians. If the purpose of opening the border is to get Armenians to give up their right to acknowledgment of the Genocide, then Turkey's gesture obviously lacks goodwill. If the purpose of opening the border is simply to allow for the flow of trade and commerce between the two countries, then Turkey will not ask for or expect something more from Armenians other than the flow of commerce and trade, in which case, Armenians will not assume that there is lack of goodwill.

One more point I'll make through an analogy: if you are strangling someone and decide to stop strangling him, is it right for you to expect him to give you something in return for your release of him? If there really is goodwill in your decision to stop strangling him, then you will not ask for something in return. Otherwise, it is nothing more than extortion, isn't it?



Which Armenians claim that entire Azerbaijan belongs to Armenia? Does the Karabagh government or the government of Armenia, or any diaspora group make such a claim? I know of no such claim being made by any Armenian group. You are attributing the words of a few lunatics to the entire nation of Armenia. Then you should also mention that there are many lunatic Turks as well as long-established Turkish nationalist groups (Grey Wolves come to mind) who claim that the entire land mass from the Aegean and Mediterranean to Mongolia belongs to Turks. That's not so modest is it!

As for your personal beliefs about what Azeris are willing to concede, please cite just one news article or statement from an Azeri government official or body that has even hinted that Azerbaijan would be willing to give up its misguided claims to Karabagh proper. Armenia and Karabagh have said over and over again that they would be willing to give up 5 of the 7 disputed territories surrounding Karabagh as soon as the Azeris agree to leave Karabagh proper alone. The two territories they refuse to give up are needed to ensure that Karabagh has a lifeline to Armenia so that it is not isolated and vulnerable to another Azeri attack.



Yes, both should end soon. But you must realize that Armenia is a vulnerable soldier surrounded by superior enemy forces. It's only defense is that it has a knife to the throat of one of its enemies' general. If it puts the knife down, then its enemies will surely pounce on it and kill it. Thus, it cannot put the knife down until the enemies have dispersed and agreed to a truce. Turkey should understand this and make the first conciliatory move. Being the stronger and much more threatening party, it is incumbant on Turkey to show the goodwill first. Armenia has no choice but to be defensive and gaurded.

Phantom, I agree with your first two paragraphs, even though I am not sure about your last proposition that the Armenian public pschye is capable of judging or assuming Turkish goodwill (or lack thereof) correctly. I can only say that I hope you are right.

About your strangling analogy, what if I add a third neighbor (Azerbaijan) into the picture? What if one neighbor strangles his second neighbour while the second neigbour tries to cut off an arm of the third neighbor? (Here I have to reiterate that the 'arm' does not correspond to Karabagh, but the rest of occupied Azeri territories) I can therefore claim that Turkey will stop strangling Armenia the moment it is out of breath and stops slicing the arm of Azerbaijan.

Then obviously you can object and say that you do not trust me that I will stop strangling you the moment you stop cutting off the arm of the third neighbour. But I would reply to you that it was you who started to chop off the arm of the third neighbor, and only then I started to strangle you after I saw what you were doing with my neighbor.

(Please note that Turkey was one of the first countries to recognize the independence of Armenia, along with those of Georgia and Azerbaijan. Turkey closed its borders with Armenia one or two years after that)

About the sources about Azeri willingness to make concessions, I did not claim that they existed for sure, I only said that it was my personal opinion. I furthermore doubt that such an official statement exists, because it would amount to treason for the majority of Azeri population. As it was recently the case in Iraq and Serbia, you know very well that defeat is admitted only when it is as certain as death and taxes. While the Azeri politicians and military very probably know about this certainty, I guess it is impossible to go public with it as long as there is nothing to 'sell' to the public as a success story. If it is ever realized, it goes without saying that an Armenian withdrawal from Azerbaijan proper would serve as such a 'success story'.

[TONY CASTALINO]

It is shame & disgrace on EU to allow criminals & savages like turkmanillies in their Union. They rather have cannibals & killers than having turko-mangloid people.

[Tongue]

Tony the aim of this forum is to have discussions in a friendly manner.
Please refrain from name calling, stereotyping, etc.

Thank you.
Welcome to the forum.

[hitite]

It is shame & disgrace on EU to allow criminals & savages like turkmanillies in their Union. They rather have cannibals & killers than having turko-mangloid people.

I'm sure Europe would have no problem accepting you into their Union. By the way I thought Turks were cannibals and killers in addition to being...

...turko-mangloid people.

Thank you for making the distinction.

[Joseph]

I don't think it would go unnoticed at all. Furthermore, I think the flow of trade and commerce between the two countries would contribute a great deal to building friendly relationships and ultimately softening each society up to the other.

As for Turkish expectations of reciprocation, I'm not sure what Turkey expects or wants from Armenians. If the purpose of opening the border is to get Armenians to give up their right to acknowledgment of the Genocide, then Turkey's gesture obviously lacks goodwill. If the purpose of opening the border is simply to allow for the flow of trade and commerce between the two countries, then Turkey will not ask for or expect something more from Armenians other than the flow of commerce and trade, in which case, Armenians will not assume that there is lack of goodwill.

One more point I'll make through an analogy: if you are strangling someone and decide to stop strangling him, is it right for you to expect him to give you something in return for your release of him? If there really is goodwill in your decision to stop strangling him, then you will not ask for something in return. Otherwise, it is nothing more than extortion, isn't it?



Which Armenians claim that entire Azerbaijan belongs to Armenia? Does the Karabagh government or the government of Armenia, or any diaspora group make such a claim? I know of no such claim being made by any Armenian group. You are attributing the words of a few lunatics to the entire nation of Armenia. Then you should also mention that there are many lunatic Turks as well as long-established Turkish nationalist groups (Grey Wolves come to mind) who claim that the entire land mass from the Aegean and Mediterranean to Mongolia belongs to Turks. That's not so modest is it!

As for your personal beliefs about what Azeris are willing to concede, please cite just one news article or statement from an Azeri government official or body that has even hinted that Azerbaijan would be willing to give up its misguided claims to Karabagh proper. Armenia and Karabagh have said over and over again that they would be willing to give up 5 of the 7 disputed territories surrounding Karabagh as soon as the Azeris agree to leave Karabagh proper alone. The two territories they refuse to give up are needed to ensure that Karabagh has a lifeline to Armenia so that it is not isolated and vulnerable to another Azeri attack.



Yes, both should end soon. But you must realize that Armenia is a vulnerable soldier surrounded by superior enemy forces. It's only defense is that it has a knife to the throat of one of its enemies' general. If it puts the knife down, then its enemies will surely pounce on it and kill it. Thus, it cannot put the knife down until the enemies have dispersed and agreed to a truce. Turkey should understand this and make the first conciliatory move. Being the stronger and much more threatening party, it is incumbant on Turkey to show the goodwill first. Armenia has no choice but to be defensive and gaurded.

Well put Phantom!

[Bulgarian]

I'm sure Europe would have no problem accepting you into their Union. By the way I thought Turks were cannibals and killers in addition to being... Thank you for making the distinction.

Turks are not cannibals.

They are however killers (on massive scale).

[elendil]

Turks are not cannibals.

They are however killers (on massive scale).

Allah belamı versin usanıyorum artık başka milletlere laf anlatmaktan... Okay we will play it your way...

Yeah man you are right. We are killers on massive scale. Just born to it you know? I do not feel good unless I dont kill one Armenian in the morning. After uni, a Kurd and an Assryian after work. A bloody hoby but it relaxes me a great deal. Many Turkish friends of mine practice the same ritual... It feels good...