What do Armenians think of Ataturk?

[Yavrum]

Yes. Not only that, he also gave Turkish women the right to vote (even before France and other so to speak developed nations). He was trying to build democracy in a country where Ottoman Sultans have been ruling for centuries. Just for your information, Ottoman Empire was not a democracy. The country was under siege during WWI by Greeks in Izmir, by Italians and Frenchs in Adana, Maras (southern part of Empire), by Russians from East. and the capital Istanbul was under control of Britain and its allias.

Under these conditions, French provoked Armenians to collaborate with Russian Army in the East. (It is tragic that French parliament passed a law about Armenian deportation recently, they are forgetting their responsibility and role actually.) The Ottoman sultan ordered to deport Eastern Armenians to Syria. And, unfortunately, many Armenians died during the trip. Please, ask yourself this question: Why did Ottoman Empire wait to make "genocide" to Armenians over 500 years? Does this make sense to you? Every country on earth tries to protect its existence if it feels threathened. Yet alone, Ottomans were no democracy! They were ruled by the word of a single Sultan. You cannot blame all Turks who have been living in peace with Armenians over centuries.

Similarly, Kurdish people have been respected in Turkey over years, do not forget the president of Turkey (Turgut Ozal) was a Kurd. Even this shows that Kurdish people were no different than Turks for Turkey history. Kurdish people fought with Turks side by side during Independence War. Now, they are being provoked by Barzani and used by USA.

And finally, not all Turkish people approve of Ottoman regime. We are not the continuation of Ottoman Empire. We are a new, young, democratic nation which points towards West (not Iran and East). Republic of Turkey will prevail. Our recent history is not filled with blood like France, UK, Spain, or USA, all countries whose current economic development is based on colonialism. They cannot represent the ideals of freedom and humanity.

Thank you - that was enlightening. In my studies and reading my grandmother's interview from my mom, I see how the French were supposed to protect the Armenians at one point, and then something changed and they just walked off and left them and all these Armenians with no arms were left defenseless. At one point, my grandmother said that the English took care of them, but the French didn't care. It's always the French. They made a mess of Viet Nam, Cambodia, Laos, and left it for the U.S. to clean up and we paid a bitter price.

I know that there is a lot of progressive Turkish people, I'm sure that's why our government wants to have close ties with them. It's a good thing for other Muslims to see that you can be a Muslim and believe in women's rights, etc. It's unfortunate that Armenia ends up being the pawn for politics. It shouldn't be that way. I don't kow what the answer is.

Also, I do not blame all Turks for what happened to the Armenians. I know very well there were Turkish generals who did not agree with the order that went out to behead Armenians, this was according to my grandmother. Still, you have to admit there was an order and it was wrong, that's all. I realize there was great upheaval at that time, but that doesn't make it right. As well, the Ottoman empire came about through violence, so I have a bit of an issue of your rosy colored glasses as to your country's past and blaming other Western countries for wars, etc.

[Yavrum]

One thing Ataturk did not invent was sodomy with children...he was just a practicer of the ancient Turkish tradition.

Can you explain please? I'm a bit ignorant about Ataturk and some of these policies. Thanks.

[gokcesz]

looking ataturk only from the aspects of foreign people:

when you look at these picture you see the brochure of UN-UNESCO declarin that year 1981 is named as Atatürk year

http://bluepoint.gen.tr/ataturk/unesco.jpg

is there any leader have honour like this...

also these are the meorials of atatürk in au and nz.
http://www.diggerhistory.info/images...k-memorial.jpg (canberra)

http://www.mch.govt.nz/img/emblems/graves/ataturk-front.jpg

(New zelland)

these memorial are made by the enemy countries in ww1
is there any leader honoured by the enemy countries?
also ataturk is nominated for nobel peace prize by THE GREEK PRESİDENT VENZİELIOS ( 10 year befores enemy in greco turkish war)

http://nobelprize.org/nomination/peace/nomination.php?action=show&showid=2046

also any leader to say that for the enemy soldliers

"Those heroes that shed their blood And lost their lives...
You are now lying in the soil of a friendly country.
Therefore, rest in peace.
There is no difference between the Johnnies
And the Mehmets to us where they lie side by side,
Here in this country of ours.
You, the mothers, who sent their sons from far away countries...
Wipe away your tears.
Your sons are now lying in our bosom And are in peace.
After having lost their lives on this land,
they have Become our sons as well. "

"His achievements in Turkey are an enduring monument to Atatürk. Emerging nations admire him as a pioneer of national liberation. The world honors his memory as a foremost peacemaker who upheld the principles of humanism and the vision of a united humanity. Tributes have been offered to him through the decades by such world statesmen as Lloyd George, Churchill, Roosevelt, Nehru, de Gaulle, Adenauer, Bourguiba, Nasser, Kennedy, and countless others. A White House statement, issued on the occasion of "The Atatürk Centennial" in 1981, pays homage to him as "a great leader in times of war and peace". It is fitting that there should be high praise for Atatürk, an extraordinary leader of modern times, who said in 1933: "I look to the world with an open heart full of pure feelings and friendship"."

http://www.ataturksociety.org/images/ken.jpg

[Joseph]

looking ataturk only from the aspects of foreign people:

when you look at these picture you see the brochure of UN-UNESCO declarin that year 1981 is named as Atatürk year

http://bluepoint.gen.tr/ataturk/unesco.jpg

is there any leader have honour like this...

also these are the meorials of atatürk in au and nz.
http://www.diggerhistory.info/images...k-memorial.jpg (canberra)

http://www.mch.govt.nz/img/emblems/graves/ataturk-front.jpg

(New zelland)

these memorial are made by the enemy countries in ww1
is there any leader honoured by the enemy countries?
also ataturk is nominated for nobel peace prize by THE GREEK PRES?DENT VENZ?ELIOS ( 10 year befores enemy in greco turkish war)

http://nobelprize.org/nomination/peace/nomination.php?action=show&showid=2046

also any leader to say that for the enemy soldliers

"Those heroes that shed their blood And lost their lives...
You are now lying in the soil of a friendly country.
Therefore, rest in peace.
There is no difference between the Johnnies
And the Mehmets to us where they lie side by side,
Here in this country of ours.
You, the mothers, who sent their sons from far away countries...
Wipe away your tears.
Your sons are now lying in our bosom And are in peace.
After having lost their lives on this land,
they have Become our sons as well. "

"His achievements in Turkey are an enduring monument to Atatürk. Emerging nations admire him as a pioneer of national liberation. The world honors his memory as a foremost peacemaker who upheld the principles of humanism and the vision of a united humanity. Tributes have been offered to him through the decades by such world statesmen as Lloyd George, Churchill, Roosevelt, Nehru, de Gaulle, Adenauer, Bourguiba, Nasser, Kennedy, and countless others. A White House statement, issued on the occasion of "The Atatürk Centennial" in 1981, pays homage to him as "a great leader in times of war and peace". It is fitting that there should be high praise for Atatürk, an extraordinary leader of modern times, who said in 1933: "I look to the world with an open heart full of pure feelings and friendship"."

http://www.ataturksociety.org/images/ken.jpg

Maybe they can take some of his DNA and reinvent him???

[Joseph]

Don't insult God Ataturk

University Suspends Turkish Professor
By SUZAN FRASER
The Associated Press
Monday, December 4, 2006; 4:47 PM


ANKARA, Turkey -- A university has suspended one of its professors for remarks he made about Turkey's revered founder, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, an official said Monday.

The suspension of professor Atilla Yayla has brought into sharp focus the country's ambivalence toward freedom of speech even as it intensifies its campaign to join the European Union.


Ankara's Gazi University suspended Yayla last week after the political scientist criticized Ataturk at a conference in the Aegean coastal city of Izmir, an official at the state-run university said on condition of anonymity because civil servants are barred from speaking to reporters without prior authorization.

News reports said the professor was suspended after he referred to the late soldier-statesman as "that man," criticized the statues and pictures of Ataturk adorning government offices, and said an era of one-party rule under Ataturk had led to "regression rather than progress."

Turkey's European Union membership bid looks increasingly troubled over what European officials say is a slowdown in reforms, including in free speech, and on Turkey's refusal to open up its ports and airports to EU member Cyprus. The European Commission recommended last week that the EU freeze negotiations on eight of 35 policy areas in Turkey's membership talks, which began in October 2005.

Earlier this year, novelist Orhan Pamuk was forced to stand trial, after a group of ultra-nationalist lawyers accused him of "insulting Turkishness" for telling a Swiss newspaper that 1 million Armenians were killed on Turkish territory. The trial was dropped on a technicality under heavy pressure from the European Union. Pamuk later won the Nobel Prize for Literature.

Ataturk founded secular and Westward-looking Turkey from the ashes of the Ottoman Empire in 1923, after saving the country from invading Western powers.

Regulations require that his portraits hang in government offices and schools, but the affection of Turks is so great toward their founder that many also hang his picture in their homes, shops and offices.

At the same time, more and more Turks are questioning his legacy and the rigid way some of his followers _ hard-liners inside the military, the bureaucracy and the judiciary _ are interpreting his principles to oppose liberal reforms and change.

The university's chancellor on Monday defended his decision to temporarily suspend Yayla until an investigation is completed.

A professor "does not have to like Ataturk but I cannot allow a person who is opposed to the Republic's main principles to educate students," Yamac told Vatan newspaper in an interview published Monday.

Yayla's comments have divided Turkey. A group of protesters sent Yamac a parcel containing sticky tape over the weekend, so that he may "gag professors." Others petitioned the university saying Yayla should not be allowed to teach.

[hitite]

He was not suspended.

[Steph]

The story goes in the ex-Soviet Union that Ataturk approached Stalin, through diplomatic channels, complaining that the Armenian Soviet Republic had a picture of Ararat on it's flag. His complaint was that as Ararat was not in Soviet Armenia it should be removed.
Stalin's response was why did Turkey have the Crescent Moon on it's flag ?
Surely the Turks weren't claiming the Moon as one of their ancient homelands?

Obviously a good day for Uncle Joe. (I don't believe he had many)

[Joseph]

In Turkey, questioning Ataturk lands liberal academic in trouble

The Associated Press
Sunday, December 31, 2006

ANKARA, Turkey
When Atilla Yayla, a professor of political science, questioned the legacy of the revered founder of modern Turkey, nationalists called him a traitor and his university suspended him. He couldn't eat or sleep for days.

"There was a lynching campaign against me," he recalled recently in his office surrounded by books on liberal thought.

Yayla said he was punished for shattering a taboo: daring to criticize Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, a leader so loved and idolized that his portraits hang in all government offices, his statues adorn parks and squares, and his ideas are still the republic's most sacred principles 68 years after his death.

"As an academic, I must be free to think, to search and share findings," Yayla, 50, said in an interview at the Ankara-based Association for Liberal Thinking, an organization he co-founded in 1994. "If Turkey wants to be a civilized country, academics must be able to scientifically criticize and evaluate Ataturk's ideas."

But his ordeal shows how Turkish universities, most of them state-controlled, are not always places where ideas float freely. Anyone deviating from the set of principles — including a strict interpretation of secularism — inspired by Ataturk and closely guarded by the military, the bureaucracy and judiciary, is chastised and in some cases, sacked.

His troubles are a reminder of how Turkey, despite aspiring to join the European Union, is still grappling with basic freedoms — one of the main problems it must address if it wants to realize its European ambitions.

Novelist Orhan Pamuk, before winning the Nobel Prize for literature, was forced to stand trial after a group of ultranationalist lawyers accused him of "insulting Turkishness" for telling a Swiss newspaper that 1 million Armenians were killed on Turkish territory — a historical detail disputed by many Turks.

The trial was dropped on a technicality.

Another writer, Ipek Calislar, also went on trial and was acquitted in December of charges that he insulted Ataturk by claiming in a biography of Ataturk's estranged wife that the leader fled an assassination attempt dressed in women's clothing.

Ataturk was a soldier and statesman who founded secular and Westward-looking Turkey from the ashes of the Ottoman Empire in 1923 after emerging as a national hero for his efforts to save the country from occupying powers.

He set about on a series of secular reforms that imposed Western laws, replaced Arabic script with the Latin alphabet, banned Islamic dress and granted women the right to vote. The country he founded frequently is touted as an example that a democracy can exist in a predominantly Muslim country.

Regulations require that his portraits hang in government offices and schools, but Turks' affection for him is so great that many also have his picture in their homes, shops and offices.

Life stops for a minute every year at 9:05 a.m. on Nov. 10 — the time of his death — with sirens wailing, motorists honking their horns and people standing in silence to mourn Ataturk.

Yayla insisted he was not insulting Ataturk but questioning his legacy, as well as the rigid way some followers interpret his principles to oppose liberal reforms and impose strict secular laws such as the ban on headscarves at universities.

"Some people have created a cult of Ataturk, but by doing this what they want to do is not to revere Ataturk but rather to ... give themselves an undisputed position in political life," he said. "That is what I cannot accept."

Yayla said in his Nov. 18 speech that the era of one-party rule under Ataturk, from 1925 to 1945, was not as progressive as the official ideology would have Turks believe but was "regressive in some respects."

He criticized the statues and pictures of Ataturk, saying Europeans would be baffled to see the portraits of just one man on the walls.

Ankara's Gazi University was inundated with fax messages accusing Yayla of treason and demanding that he be sacked after the speech, delivered at a panel discussion organized by the youth wing of Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan's Islamic-rooted party in the Aegean port of Izmir.

Gazi's chancellor, Kadri Yamac, bowed to the pressure and temporarily removed Yayla from his teaching post pending the outcome of an investigation, saying a professor "does not have to like Ataturk but I cannot allow a person who is opposed to the Republic's main principles to educate students."

"We are ashamed of ... the so-called scientist to whom insulting Ataturk is freedom of speech," Lale Sivgin, a columnist for the nationalist Yenicag newspaper, wrote in November.

In separate commentary in December, she accused the professor of forgetting an allegiance some academics make to Ataturk when receiving their diplomas.

"Since (he is) preoccupied with the Ataturk pictures that hang on walls instead of serving the country, it is obvious that (he has) forgotten his pledge," Sivgin wrote.

The professor also has his supporters. A group of protesters wearing masks bearing Yayla's image sent the university chancellor a parcel containing sticky tape — to "gag professors."

Academics signed a petition to have him reinstated and to counter petitions, mostly by nationalists, who say Yayla should not be allowed to teach.

Nevertheless, the professor said he was so upset that he was rushed to hospital with high blood pressure.

"I couldn't sleep for four nights and I couldn't eat for five days, and in the end my body collapsed," Yayla said. "They didn't defend my academic freedom; instead, they wanted to execute me without a trial."

[imported_azad]

Yes. Not only that, he also gave Turkish women the right to vote (even before France and other so to speak developed nations). He was trying to build democracy in a country where Ottoman Sultans have been ruling for centuries. Just for your information, Ottoman Empire was not a democracy. The country was under siege during WWI by Greeks in Izmir, by Italians and Frenchs in Adana, Maras (southern part of Empire), by Russians from East. and the capital Istanbul was under control of Britain and its allias.

Under these conditions, French provoked Armenians to collaborate with Russian Army in the East. (It is tragic that French parliament passed a law about Armenian deportation recently, they are forgetting their responsibility and role actually.) The Ottoman sultan ordered to deport Eastern Armenians to Syria. And, unfortunately, many Armenians died during the trip. Please, ask yourself this question: Why did Ottoman Empire wait to make "genocide" to Armenians over 500 years? Does this make sense to you? Every country on earth tries to protect its existence if it feels threathened. Yet alone, Ottomans were no democracy! They were ruled by the word of a single Sultan. You cannot blame all Turks who have been living in peace with Armenians over centuries.

Similarly, Kurdish people have been respected in Turkey over years, do not forget the president of Turkey (Turgut Ozal) was a Kurd. Even this shows that Kurdish people were no different than Turks for Turkey history. Kurdish people fought with Turks side by side during Independence War. Now, they are being provoked by Barzani and used by USA.

And finally, not all Turkish people approve of Ottoman regime. We are not the continuation of Ottoman Empire. We are a new, young, democratic nation which points towards West (not Iran and East). Republic of Turkey will prevail. Our recent history is not filled with blood like France, UK, Spain, or USA, all countries whose current economic development is based on colonialism. They cannot represent the ideals of freedom and humanity.

Oh, Please, about the Kurdish rights in Turkey who are we cheating here. I'll give you one name: Ismail Besikci (A scholar of Turkish origin, not Kurdish) who is currently serving a "100 years jail sentence" as of 2003 and his crime is writing sociological books on Kurds in Turkey. Please I suggest everyone to read his books, he's absolutely a very important scholar of this subject. Ozal, the Kurd, who has done so much for this country, so much more then any other Turkish president but they never let him proceed..

"I operate by changing people's minds. My style is to move very fast...you have to move fast; otherwise, you lose everything while everyone is debating what to do."
-Turgut Ozal


He was Turkey's hope. Turkey needs another man like him.

A language was banned, a people were called Mountain Turks, a people were discriminated via media and society, no economical developments in SE Turkey, Semdinli: Turkish army bombs Kurds, Diyarbakir judge loses his job because he tells the truth about the Turkish army, Maras massacre, Dersim massacre, Diyarbakir massacre, man discrimination after discrimination infinite list goes on. How could some people come up here and deny the struggle Kurds faced in Turkey - those people have no clue what goes in between Kayseri and Diyarbakir. It's funny how the user I quoted talks about Barzani been the reason for the Kurdish nationalism. I suggest you read Sheik Said rebellion and Kurdish Nationalism for you to understand this better. Still today, in Turkey, people see all Kurds as "PKK" members and this implies to Terrorists.
But Turkey is not considering the future, the current and the past of the Kurdish effect in modern Turkey culturally and politically. Some organisation are underestimating the Kurdish population in Turkey; Kurds are much more then 20 million in Turkey and cultural elements in Turkey; more then half of Turkey's culture comes from the Kurds (just look at the films, the books, the music..). Finally, please don't talk about parliamentary rights of the Kurds when we have Leyla Zana's example, it's preposterous, I mean wtf! when we have examples like those how could we talk about equality?

[spirit]

Ataturk was a great man, maybe the greatest of the 20th century.

Kurds must realize something, they should give up "my enemy's enemy is my friend" policy and leave this forum as it is...