Absolutely Disgusting

[muratkanat6907]

[QUOTE=Joseph;22035]He is reffering to 2 incindents in Republican Turkish history:


1. WWII wealth tax leveled at Turkey's minorities/ labor camps
2. The Istanbul pogroms in 1955


This is right but what I was mentioning killing IN THOUSANDS during WWII and 1955 incidents....
As far as I know there was no killing in thousand none of these two events...

[muratkanat6907]

Yes, Shahan also watched his family butchered by your idol...[/QUOTE]

He is not an IDOL at least for the most of the people I know here in Turkey.

[1.5 million]

So blood for blood,
Have those diplomats killed any Armenian??? Or ordered killings of any Armenian... That's what I don't agree.

If the government of Armenia (or a past one) carried out a total genocide agsinst all Anatolian Turks and then aggressively denied that such a thing ever happened - and you were a descendent of a survivor of such I'm sure you would be calling for the utter downfall of such a government....and certainly would shed no tears for the death of any representatives of that government - particularly ones who perpetuate the government "story" that such a thing never happened...

Still, all citing in favor of your view and my view ended with an Armenian or Turkish source. This proves nothing. It would be grate government in Yerevan, Moscow and those from other countries (Paris, London, Germany etc...) opened up their archieves to conclude this... As far as I know Turkey claim that they opened...

Ottoman "archives" have been doctored and evidence destroyed since before the end of WWI - still several researchers - even with restricted access have found damning evidence. There was no Armenian State at the time of the Armenian genocide BTW - thus no archives pertaining to this event - though otherwise the archives are entirely open to my knowledge. And of course a great deal of first hand evidence exists in American, German, Austrian, Italian and British archives to name a few. You are either being quite disengenuous or are just ignorant to claim that only Armenian sources validate the historical truth of the Armenian genocide and the criminal CUP/Ottoman Turkish actions that were taken to exterminate the Armenians...it in fact was extremely well documented by multi-national (inlc Turk) first hand sources...

For this blood to blood thing:
Here I have armenian friends and I know that they suffered and still suffering some how. But also I have Turkish friends whose grand parents also suffered because of Armenian acts in their regions... I don't claim that Turkish sufferings outnumbered that of Armenian.Have you ever listened a story from Turkish side? My point is most of you do not tend to listen Turkish view, just 180 degree opposite of the nationalists attitude here in Turkey.

I am no Armenian nationalist - far from it. And I am familiar with Turkish "stories" as well as the facts. I know enough to put them into perpective - it is Turks like you who are truly ignorant of the magnitude of the crimes commited against the Armenians to which there is no corralary. Claiming that this was all some equal blood fued just does not fit the facts. It is a lie - an evasion.

Your way of accusing all Turks (though you know that it was a result of couple of people's decision in war times) is hardened for most of Turks to discuss the subject with you.

You have hardened yourself and you have been mislead...is that my problem?

A great many Turks actrively participated in the Armenian genocide and a great many - like you - are still participating in it...

[muratkanat6907]

See that's my point,
You said Talaat and others Young Turks killings had some reasoning. Because they were responsible for a lot of murders (I believed they should be sentenced and prisoned till death and die everyday in prison). Bu still you cannot clarify why those diplomats were killed? You can only say what if ....
blah blah.... in short blood for blood.
What am I saying? there is no end for this blood for blood thing.....

What about documents of Tashnaksutyun party....
Still As I tried to reach original documents, I ended always to an Armenian site..

I may tell you a story from your side, can you tell me from Turkish side?
And I pointed out that both sides sufferings were not equal.

In short, my friend you say that "what I'm telling is pure truth" and I don't know anything other than that. And I'm ignorant!!!!!
But the hate for Turks in your bloods as Hrant said poisoning you....
So that you try to avoid to discuss with Turks to reveal the truth.... (except those who 100 % agree with you). What a shame and quite the same with nationalists....

If the government of Armenia (or a past one) carried out a total genocide agsinst all Anatolian Turks and then aggressively denied that such a thing ever happened - and you were a descendent of a survivor of such I'm sure you would be calling for the utter downfall of such a government....and certainly would shed no tears for the death of any representatives of that government - particularly ones who perpetuate the government "story" that such a thing never happened...



Ottoman "archives" have been doctored and evidence destroyed since before the end of WWI - still several researchers - even with restricted access have found damning evidence. There was no Armenian State at the time of the Armenian genocide BTW - thus no archives pertaining to this event - though otherwise the archives are entirely open to my knowledge. And of course a great deal of first hand evidence exists in American, German, Austrian, Italian and British archives to name a few. You are either being quite disengenuous or are just ignorant to claim that only Armenian sources validate the historical truth of the Armenian genocide and the criminal CUP/Ottoman Turkish actions that were taken to exterminate the Armenians...it in fact was extremely well documented by multi-national (inlc Turk) first hand sources...


I am no Armenian nationalist - far from it. And I am familiar with Turkish "stories" as well as the facts. I know enough to put them into perpective - it is Turks like you who are truly ignorant of the magnitude of the crimes commited against the Armenians to which there is no corralary. Claiming that this was all some equal blood fued just does not fit the facts. It is a lie - an evasion.



You have hardened yourself and you have been mislead...is that my problem?

A great many Turks actrively participated in the Armenian genocide and a great many - like you - are still participating in it...

[muratkanat6907]

Capiche

[Joseph]

Yeah...real sincere Erdogan

Let's take a historical step together"

By order of Minister Abdullah Gül, the Turkish Ministry of Foreign Affairs has called on important representatives of the Armenian community around the world. The Ministry's invitation said 'let's take a historical step together and find solutions for this problem together in Turkey.' It was learned that all travel and accommodation expenses of those invited will be covered by the Turkish Government. The Archbishop of New York; Barsamyan has accepted the invitation. The Ministry has also asked Armenian religion leaders not to allow fanatics' provocations against Turkey.


They are calling us the fanatics!?!?!. God forbid you should strive for justice in this world. We are dealing with a culture that does not know how to say sorry. And they want us to trust them?

[Tongue]

Below is a story from Sabah. I cannot believe what this article is trying to say... equating Talaat Pasha with Hrant Dink. What scum.

Shooting Hrant Dink on the neck and the crack on his shoes reminded me of another murder in Berlin 86 years ago: the murder of grand vizier Talat Pasha. The pasha was killed by a terrorist named Sogomon Tehliryan in Berlin on 15 March 1921.



Publish Date: 21.01.2007
Link: http://english.sabah.com.tr/6E96E0B8...175D0CF26.html

Utterly disgusting! What an insult.
It's articles like this that brainwash the society's youth such as Ogün Samar into committing such barbaric acts..

[1.5 million]

Murat90210 - I already suggested that you read my prior posts in this forum before you ignorantly proclaim what you think I do and do not know and do and do not believe. I again suggest you do so before tilting at your imagined windmills.

[Joseph]

MURDERER OF HRANT DINK WAS NOT ARMENIAN: HIS FAMILY REFUTES REPORT
BY TERCUMAN NEWSPAPER

Yerevan, January 22. ArmInfo. Patriarch of Istanbul and All Turkey
Mesrop Mutafyan has expressed his indignation at the Jan 21 article
of Tercuman newspaper (Turkey) alleging that the murderer of Hrant
Dink Ogun Samast is of Armenian origin.

Lraper newspaper reports Mutafyan to say that the article attempts
to prove that the murderer is not Turk. "This is a result of the
unhealthy mentality of blaming Armenians for all," says Mutafyan
and notes that this is an instance of national discrimination and a
violation of the Turkish Constitution.

To remind, Jan 21 Turkish police arrested 17-year-old Ogun Samast,
who confessed that it was he who killed Dink.

Turkish mass media reports that, following the Tercuman report,
the relatives of Samast spoke on TV and refuted the news that Samast
is Armenian.

[Joseph]

Grotesque

Crying together in our common pain

Bulent Kenes

Zaman

The Turkish nation has claimed our Armenian citizen and colleague Hrant Dink, who was shot to death by bullets from the gun of a traitor. While the whole nation was mourning this loss, authorities were fast to take action and caught the ruthless hit man in less than a day. Now all expectations are concentrated on the efforts to unearth the network of hate behind the young killer.
There is a Turkish idiom: “Fire burns where it hits -- a calamity grieves its victim.” Although the killing of Hrant, whose name means “living fire” in Armenian, burnt his family the worst, I hope they find consolation in seeing that a 75-million strong nation shares their pain.
Just as love multiplies when shared, pains also diminish when shared, so long as we know how to share them. Let us cleanse ourselves of selfishness and ego-centered ideas. This is what really must be done in personal as well as social relations.
What good is there in looking at international pains that have become indelible parts of history from one’s own angle, in crying for one’s own losses and in convicting the ones behind those social devastations without judging and assessing all aspects of the situation? Is it really so difficult to empathize and show some understanding?
It goes without saying that the nations who once lived as brothers under Ottoman rule and who shared a single destiny became fractured through the provocation of some western countries. It was all of us who eventually lost. Not only did Armenians die in World War I, but Turks did as well. So did Kurds and Arabs. And Frenchmen and Russians and Germans. Is there any nation who did not lose someone that cries for their pain only?
How could any rational person believe that Turks inflicted this inhuman atrocity on the Armenians during their weakest era, whereas there were never problems between the Armenian community and the Turks when the Ottomans were the greatest power in the world?
People from all religions and races lived inside Ottoman boundaries freely and in peace, while the history of genocides and ethnic cleansing dates back to the past of Europe. If it had ever crossed the mind of Turks to perpetrate genocide against Armenians, I’m sure that they would have done this long before the 1900’s, instead while at the zenith of their power while no one could oppose such an action.
In fact, Turks have always been a shelter for the oppressed, repressed and those subjected to genocide throughout history, and surely never even thought of perpetrating genocide against a certain race. The Jews of Spain know this fact very well, and you can ask Iraqi peshmergas who have lately come to witness what “the compassion of the Turks’ means;” just to mention few of the innumerous examples.
On the other hand, historical data clearly demonstrates that Armenians were never the majority in Anatolia. If they had ever been the majority, as claimed, they would never have taken up arms. The only way to seize the control of the region where they lived as the minority seemed to them to be perpetrating ethnic cleansing against the Turks, and the Armenians of the time did try to do this.
Armenians claim that Turks perpetrated genocide against them and massacred 1.5 million Armenians. As a matter of fact, according to the results of a very reliable population census conducted in 1913, the number of Armenians living in Anatolia was about 1.3 million! This shows how groundless and inconsistent the claims are. The real number of Armenians who died under warfare is estimated to be around 300,000. This, we must accept, is no small number either.
Now, let’s take up the matter through someone else’s pain. Doing this, we can easily conclude that the real genocide was perpetrated against Muslims. A total number of 5.5 million Muslims, most of them Turks, were killed in World War I. And around the same number were forced to emigrate.
It is a fact that Armenians, who were forced into emigration by the persisting warfare and epidemic diseases, lost also a big number of citizens. However, it is another fact that the total number of Armenians killed in attacks at Armenian convoys by Muslims in retaliation for the previous massacres perpetrated by them, is at most 10,000.
Also, deaths from epidemic diseases in those years were so common that the British army lost 188,000 soldiers, the French army 179,000 and the Russian army 395,000 and it is very well known that the Ottoman army lost a greater number of soldiers to epidemic diseases. It is also known that Armenians, too, lost an important number of people to such diseases.
Historical documents prove that the Ottomans not only never perpetrated any massacre, but also tried and convicted 1,397 Turks for attacking emigrating Armenians convoys. This is the one and only example in the history of humanity; a state establishes a court in wartime and tries its citizens for committing crimes against other nations...
It is best to forget about all of this. Just as we claim Hrant now, we must also claim Mehmet and Georgo. It is best to diminish the pains of this land by leaning against one another’s shoulder. Let’s cry altogether for our pain; not individually; because, no one’s pain and suffering is bigger or smaller than another’s.