Religion and the Armenian Genocide

[Nick_A]

OK SoS, I'll look to see if and where I can be helpful.

My trouble is that though not completely Armenian, I am related to highly regarded Armenian art. So sometimes people think I should say more and perhaps I should but the question is what to say? Art is not politics. Real quality art touches the "being" of man. So I appreciate being related to that which is supportive which is one reason that I speak on what I believe to be the necessity for Armenia to retain its spiritual depth without sacrificing its practicality.

I can participate in politics while holding my nose. My real concern is for Armenia not to lose in its psych what IMO is very ancient and very valuable

[1.5 million]

I too am not sure of the value of going any further with this. In many senses we are talking past one another. I will try to read your linked text however...and maybe it will p*ss me off enough to get me to post some more on this issue...BTW - I do understand some of the distinctions you are trying to make - but I still feet the same way and in fact I feel that your last post in particular vindicates my position entirely (for the reader who can appreciate the points I have made). And while I don't see you yourself Nick as being particularly dangerous or harmful - I find your logic flawed in a number of areas - and in particular I find your acceptance of the Armenian Genocide (and avoidance of some key issues concerning it) rather distasteful - still I just find that your, Weil's, and other's (ie Osama Bin Laden for instance) reliance on religious belief as the ultimate arbitrator - even as something we should rely on at all to determine our life values and beliefs - as inherrently dangerous and misguided. And quite the opposite of your view - (I believe that) it is religion itself that is the problem. And it will be the cause of the destruction of our world and civilization as we know it and it will likely plunge us into another dark age and/or prevent us from taking care of our real (wordly) problems. Also one question - your not a follower of Sri Chimnoy are you?

[1.5 million]

OK I read and enjoyed Needlman's essay and I understand his points - but I don't agree with him (with his conclusions). I find it highly egotistical (and innacurate) to view "man" as the center of the universe (even as the lowlyiest rung per se with the greater "sphears" of knowldge/power around us....nope - I don't buy it. Again its speculation - I (and other ancients) can come up with different (and equally faniciful and ultimatly incorrect) versions of reality and explanation. So Ok - science is literal...but this does not at all presuppose imagination and wonder and speculation etc - knowing it for what it is. We can feel spiritually tied to the universe and its wonders without having to name and understand them and certainly making up the answers and then believing them to be real is well - wrong. I won't say that there exists no value in the knowledge of the ancients - far from it. For instance I've studied Egyptian magic and mythology and philosphy quite extensively (and these are the source for a great deal of esoteric knowledge in the West...along with the Summarian of course - both - along with Ancient Greek learning - directly responsible for what we know as the Judeao-Christian tradition - nearly all of it - and much more...) and I am just as familiar with much of the ancient Chinese teachings/wisdom (and in fact I consider myself to be a Daoist BTW). And I fully understand that there is a great deal beyond our physical (and perhaps scientifically testable/observable) perceptions that remains to be known and can be of value. There are tremendous insights to be found (regarding the nature of man and the workings of our environment) in the Greek myths for instance - so much there - really - and I feel that the monotheistic traditions are really missing out in many ways in rejecting much of this. Anyway - so I am fully of aware of these things - of a great many knowledges - of concepts of transcendence - etc - and I see no problem with either inquiry or learning from these realms - However, what I caution against is the formation of structured beliefs based on such - the thinking that one can "know" reality and can really find answers to cosmological questions in such. I don't buy it. We are not capable of such (and I know/accept this from at the very least a basic understanding of the limitiations imposed on us by space/time). I think it is arrogant and highly egotistical to think that we are "it" - that we are special as some kind of end product - etc - And there is so much more I can say but am too tired to do so at the moment. But the ultimate problem is folks getting it in their heads that the allegorical lessons - the mythological stories are REAL. They aren't. And when people start making such claims - "God is real and wears red shoes" - well not only do I not buy it - and I know that these statements are false - cannot possibly be true - but the believers insist that they indeed are - that this god is playing puppet master with us - that we have to kiss his a s s and such - and that we face punishment for heresay or even just for doubting - etc - well ching ching - sorry - this is bad sh*t - it just is - and there is no way around it. Anyway happy jihad, merry crusade.

[Nick_A]

1.5

And while I don't see you yourself Nick as being particularly dangerous or harmful - I find your logic flawed in a number of areas - and in particular I find your acceptance of the Armenian Genocide (and avoidance of some key issues concerning it) rather distasteful

Yes I do accept that the Armenian Genocide did indeed occur and regardless if you find this illogical, I will still believe that it happened.

You keep insinuating that I am advocating blind belief. This is untrue and I know as you, the dangers of blind belief.

I am saying that as we are, we are unable to "understand." The path to human understand begins with the willingness to "Know Thyself" It is an old idea.

"Do You wish to know God? Learn first to know yourself" Abba Evagrius, Fourth Century.

Right now we live in imagination which is why so many objectively naive conceptions regarding God exist. You see the foolishness and decide to throw the whole thing out and just concentrate on daily life in Plato's Cave. In contrast, I sense the truth of these things and know that the only way to experience their reality is to "Know Thyself." which is why my path is esoteric (inner) Christianity.



We have a basic difference in direction. When the noted Hungarian particle physicist Basarab Nicolescu writes on levels of reality as it relates to quantum physics, I am open to understanding what he is talking about including the new axiom of "The Included Middle."

http://nicol.club.fr/ciret/bulletin/b12/b12c3.htm

Cosmology is not structured belief. It is a skeleton which we must verify and not blindly believe. It allows us to put Christian re-birth into a concept that can be grasped by the Western mind.



It is not a matter of you buying it. It is suggested that as you are, without self knowledge, you are unable to understand. One cannot know whether or not to buy without first knowing how to judge. A jeweler cannot know if he should buy a gem or not without first knowing how to judge its worth. As we are, living in Plato's Cave, we are incapable of conscious higher judgment. That is why we must first let the light in and begin to "Know Thyself."

[SoSarkissian]

DING DING DING

the bell rings and you see the bikini girl holding the cardboard looking at the audience, smiling at Nick_A ... winking to 1.5 million and coming down the stage ...

the ref calls both Nick_A and 1.5 million, checks their readiness and announces …

Round 5 Everyone!!

[1.5 million]

It is suggested that as you are, without self knowledge, you are unable to understand. One cannot know whether or not to buy without first knowing how to judge. A jeweler cannot know if he should buy a gem or not without first knowing how to judge its worth. As we are, living in Plato's Cave, we are incapable of conscious higher judgment. That is why we must first let the light in and begin to "Know Thyself."

Who are you to say and how are you to say that I lack self knowledge? You claim/assume that we are blind and live in "Plato's Cave" - well I disagree (I think we have the tools and the know how...not saying that all or even most make use of such..)...and well I totally dispute your claim that there is some "light" that we must see that is equated with something only (or even at all) provided through faith. Faith in what? Fairy stories and/or imagined reality and constructs? Sorry - not good enough. Embarrasing even. Childish. And just wrong/incorrect.

Oh & BTW - here is the legacy of some great (self-proclaimed) "Ascended Masters" and the like - we can see how they have risen above (the paltry human condition...not) and provided mankind with a legacy of enlightenment that is a clear course for our future...

http://www.strippingthegurus.com/index.html#stgtoc

[1.5 million]

It is not a matter of you buying it. It is suggested that as you are, without self knowledge, you are unable to understand. One cannot know whether or not to buy without first knowing how to judge.

Again you are pushing your heroin on me and I don't appreciate it. I reject your claim that you are in possession of some hidden (system of etc) knowledge (beyond my capabilities) that is worth anything to me. As i know - for a fact - that a very fundemental aspect of your belief (and thus conclusions and guiding principles along the way) are entirely false (the heroin is both addictive and damaging and may cause you to go out and rob and steal from others to support your habit - and your blind conviction that it is in fact a good thing for you - and for me and others - is a symptom of your addiction. It is clear that you and the rest of us would be better off without such addictive and dangerous narcotics even if you thing they really are "the thing" and that only through injecting yourself with ever higher doses can you truly "know yourself") - and thus I (correctly) percieve the danger in what you espouse.

[1.5 million]

Here ya go - I find that this account here is a great metephor for all religion - yes I would advise all to refrain from taking the sh*t...(that relgion passes on as solutions to our problems)...

"...traditional Tibetan medicine goes even further, at times containing small amounts of lama (not llama) ... um....

[Seventeenth-century Austrian Jesuit cleric Johann] Grueber was particularly repulsed by the custom of the laity’s eating “curative pills” containing the Dalai Lama’s excrement (Schell, 2001).
Or, in the vernacular: “holy xxxx.”

A hundred years ago, rumors that the feces of the Dalai Lama—the spiritual leader of Tibetan Buddhists—had beneficial properties prompted the UK’s Surgeon General to analyze them in the interests of science. They contained nothing remarkable, he concluded. Just as well: According to a spokesperson at the UK-based Tibet Foundation, “These days you can’t even buy the Dalai Lama’s used clothes, never mind his excrement” (Toscani, 2000).
And they call that progress!

When the doctor [treating David Bohm—the Dalai Lama’s “physics teacher”—for “thick blood” in Switzerland] indicated that he would send to Dharamsala for medication, the Dalai Lama insisted that the treatment should begin immediately. He took Precious Tablets, wrapped in silk, from a pouch in his room and instructed Saral [Bohm’s wife] on how they should be prepared. Bohm found their taste revolting (Peat, 1997)."

[Nick_A]

1.5

Who are you to say and how are you to say that I lack self knowledge?

All I can say is that your objection is natural. I know you are not dangerous but Socrates implied that people can become so insulted at this that they can kill: From the Cave Analogy

Socrates] This entire allegory, I said, you may now append, dear Glaucon, to the previous argument; the prison-house is the world of sight, the light of the fire is the sun, and you will not misapprehend me if you interpret the journey upwards to be the ascent of the soul into the intellectual world according to my poor belief, which, at your desire, I have expressed whether rightly or wrongly God knows. But, whether true or false, my opinion is that in the world of knowledge the idea of good appears last of all, and is seen only with an effort; and, when seen, is also inferred to be the universal author of all things beautiful and right, parent of light and of the lord of light in this visible world, and the immediate source of reason and truth in the intellectual; and that this is the power upon which he who would act rationally, either in public or private life must have his eye fixed.

Now, coming out of the sun and not fully accustomed again to living in darkness, a person having experienced the light wants to share even though unsteady but is confronted with experts that at best only confuse everything and at worst kill him.

[Socrates] And if there were a contest, and he had to compete in measuring the shadows with the prisoners who had never moved out of the cave, while his sight was still weak, and before his eyes had become steady (and the time which would be needed to acquire this new habit of sight might be very considerable) would he not be ridiculous? Men would say of him that up he went and down he came without his eyes; and that it was better not even to think of ascending; and if any one tried to loose another and lead him up to the light, let them only catch the offender, and they would put him to death.

Of course if you believe you do know yourself or are conscious of yourself, then none of this will be appealing as is the case with the majority.

Oh & BTW - here is the legacy of some great (self-proclaimed) "Ascended Masters" and the like - we can see how they have risen above (the paltry human condition...not) and provided mankind with a legacy of enlightenment that is a clear course for our future...

Well since I prefer stripping goddesses father than gurus, I agree that there is a tremendous amount of foolishness out there.

Fool’s gold exists because there is real gold. –Rumi.

I agree that there is a lot of fools gold out there. I also believe that there is real gold as well and that is what interests me.

Again you are pushing your heroin on me and I don't appreciate it. I reject your claim that you are in possession of some hidden (system of etc) knowledge (beyond my capabilities) that is worth anything to me.

I believe I am aware of the direction in which it is possible to develop our "understanding." and become able to connect the higher with the lower in ourselves. I never said it is beyond you. I am just more open to it now.

Just think logically for a moment: is the simple suggestion of the need and value to know thyself to achieve "presence" or self awareness such a narcotic? Can one lose anything but their imagination if one truly begins to "Know Thyself?"

You seem to associative "Know Thyself" with furthering the hold of imagination and I take the classical position that it is the first step to freedom from imagination.

This is my concern for Armenia as well as Russia. All sorts of false prophets are invading these countries. I don't want their citizens to sacrifice the depth of the old Christian traditions as they fall victim to their appeal.

I'm going to a lecture on Armenian Sacred music on the 4/16. I'm sorry but the techno versions just aren't going to make it. This kind of music should be felt and remembered. It feeds something inside that cannot be done by even the most politically correct speeches.

http://www.stnersess.edu/currentEvents/calendar/#4

[1.5 million]

I believe I am aware of the direction in which it is possible to develop our "understanding." and become able to connect the higher with the lower in ourselves. I never said it is beyond you. I am just more open to it now.

Yes and so say many. Funny how those who claim this always turn out to be frauds.

So tell me about heaven. I understand some claim that all get to dine on the finest cavier and duck liver pate. I don't like cavier and duck liver pate...I think I'll pass.

Just think logically for a moment

This statement of yours really made me laugh...but Ok - go on...

: is the simple suggestion of the need and value to know thyself to achieve "presence" or self awareness such a narcotic? Can one lose anything but their imagination if one truly begins to "Know Thyself?"

I value my imagination quite highly BTW. The problem is the old slippery slope Son of Sam. Open yourself to the inner voice of that ole (ficticious) god of yours - and who knows what he will direct you to do. This is not "know(ing) yourself" its a self fulfiling prophecy based on your temporaly and culturaly limited mental and metephysical constructs. Its neither truth nor reality (except perhaps by chance). I mean you will claim one thing and Mahamoud heard quite a different (irreconsolible) story...and this is the problem...people actually believe in such self generated constructs (as god's word) and start killing others for it and restricting others and perpetuating all sorts of banal and nasty stuff.

You seem to associative "Know Thyself" with furthering the hold of imagination and I take the classical position that it is the first step to freedom from imagination.

I happen to "know myself" quite well thank you. And I take umbrage at your suggestion that I do not and that only through the (rather questionable - at least in certain assumptions) path you have chosen is the right one (in any way).

This is my concern for Armenia as well as Russia. All sorts of false prophets are invading these countries. I don't want their citizens to sacrifice the depth of the old Christian traditions as they fall victim to their appeal.

They are only exploiting the same waeknesses that your old time religions once did and still do. While I understand and appreciate your nostalgie (and more then this) for the old traditons I see them for what they are - which ultimatly has mcuh less and or little to do with actual belief in supernatural dieties or such. And certainly for you to lable these other "false prophets" is well like calling the kettle black as it were.

I'm going to a lecture on Armenian Sacred music on the 4/16. I'm sorry but the techno versions just aren't going to make it. This kind of music should be felt and remembered. It feeds something inside that cannot be done by even the most politically correct speeches.

http://www.stnersess.edu/currentEvents/calendar/#4

You might be suprised that I too listen to such music (even more so to Oud and variations on Armenian Dance music...oh and of course SOAD as well - they rock!...and Aznovour!) - and in fact my family has a very direct connection to Gomidas. I can appreciate Armenian sacred music - as well as Armenian traditions. Our family celebrates most aspects of Armenian Easter for instances - including the natural dying of eggs - and the cracking them together thing - we always do this and it is very special for our children. And while I don't follow lent restrictions or such per se - I do invite friends and family to join us in (vegetarian) lenten meals and such. And so on and so forth. I'm not claiming to be culturally Armenian per se - because for the most part I am not - but we still observe and am involved in a variety of Armenian cultural traditions (without having to believe) - and I know that we are not alone. In fact some years we even attend Easter services and our children get their feet washed and participate with other Armenian kids in a variety of activities.....but again we also participate in Passover and Purim (which is really a good one - recommended!) - yet we are not Jewish...and we have also followed some Catholic (and specifically ethnically Puerto Rican) observances...etc...so I see value in all of these and in the preservation of certain Armenian specific cultural values as well (if they mean something to you then of course they will live on) - however none of these truly presupooses belief in Santa Claus or in entities very much like him in most respects...etc