why blame me?

[Joseph]

[ATTACH]376[/ATTACH]

Preventive measures taken for the inhabitants who will be returned to their countries. (Ciphered telegram from the Ministry of the Interior to some provinces and provincial subdivisions, that those individuals who were sent and transpored to other locations due to the war, have been permitted o return to their regions and that the necessary measures should be taken for their safe return, and those whose do not act accordingly in these matters will be punished.) 17 M. 1337 (23 October 1918) BOA. HR. MÜ, 43/34
Reference: Armenians in Ottoman Documents(1915-1920)

Yes, and that's why the Armenians were cared for during their little jaunt through the Syrian desert and thousands of Armenians returned back to the homes, reclaimed their property and reformed their trades and businesses in Kars, Kayseri, Adana, Bitlis and so forth. That's why there is such a large Armenian population in Aintab, Marash, Kharpet, Van, Trebizind, etc today. This is why Armenians so revere the kindness of the Turks today

[bell-the-cat]

I'm still somewhat baffled as to how anyone can deny the Armenian genocide.

Exactly my thoughts - anyone actually denying it must either be a total moron or a propagandist who knows the truth but choses to deny it for his or her own ends. Either way, such people are not worth conversing with.

That is not to say we should not be interested in informing people when they genuinely want to learn. and correcting any misinformation they had received previously and perhaps believed to be true. I suppose everyone starts at some point from a position of knowing absolutely nothing.

[1.5 million]

asia -

Among the scholarly community that has extensively examined the history of the Armenian genocide it is known and accepted that Talat used communications (through the telegraph system) and official orders and proclemations very decpetively - to show publicly (falsely) that one thing was being done (caring for Armenians and their properties) while simultaniously secret orders were given that countramanded the official public orders and ordered the killing of Armenians. This has been demonstrated in numerous occasions and is a key evidence as to the true genocidal intent and nature of the campaign against the Armenians (which was conducted using trusted agents - CUP operatives, appointed officials and Special Organization [death squad] units). Turkish Historian Halil Berktay made the following observations in an interview on 18 October 2005 (my bolds):

Question: What actually happened in 1915-16?

Berktay: "...this was no accident, this was not a marginal or small thing, it was not a geographically or demographically limited thing, virtually the entirety of Ottoman Armenians has been ordered to be rounded up, socially deracinated, uprooted, dispossesses, and deported for no reason other than that they were Armenians and, secondly, that there was very strong evidence that the accompanied violence and massacres had not started spontaneously or despite the best intentions of the state to protect the convoys of the deportees. Rather, there was strong evidence to the effect that there were orders issued, disseminated, and executed through the Teskilat-i Mahsusa and that this in turn triggered secondary and tertiary rounds of violence and massacres once it became clear that the Armenians were fair game and that the shooting season was open on them."

Question: Was it genocide?

Berktay: "It fits the clauses of the 1948 UN convention comprehensively, and in that light, if we are permitted to take those categorizations and apply them to an event that occured 33 years earlier, then we have to say, “Yes, it was genocide”. "

He later follows with this elaboration (that you as a Turk need to come to understand and appreciate):

Berktay: "by 1912-13, and especially after the traumatic Balkan wars, the unionist leadership had already acquired a comprehensive ethnic cleansing mentality. They had arrived at the crystallization of their own version of Social Darwinistic, violent, anxious, and, therefore, malicious and malevolent unionist nationalism. That is to say, it was their ideology that was telling them “we cannot have a patriotic self defense unless and until we have an Anatolia that has been comprehensively Turkified. That is to say, they had acquired a nationalist ideological perspective of regarding all non-Turks as suspect, hostile elements. It was this ideology that led to the tehcir and the accompanying orders...It was this ideology, in turn, which lead to the horrors of 1915...it was the Ottoman state versus all Armenians. It was state declaring war on its subjects."


And on October 09 2000 in an interview published in the Turkish newspaper Radikal he made the following statements:

"...there were 1 million and 750 thousand Armenians living in
Eastern Anatolia. (my note - this figure is for Eastern Anatolia only - not Anatolia/Ottoman Empire at large) The deportation order issued by the ruling military triumvirate was drawn up so as to include all the Armenians in the region, without exception. These things are documented in writing. There was no mention of massacres or slaughter. The provincial governors and garrison commanders were directed to deport the Armenians to the region south of Turkey's current borders. However, it's clear that, in addition to these official orders, separate, non-written orders were given to the most
rapacious members of the `Teskilat-i Mahsusa' (`Special Organization'), who worshipped violence and were not bound by adherence to any normal moral code.

Q - For the Armenians to be killed?

Yes. Historian Taner Akcam has demonstrated this in a very sound way.
There was on the one hand a legal decision and implementation, and on the
other another mechanism entirely that proceeded in an illegal manner...It is clear that Bahaettin Sakir, who operated as the Teskilat-i Mahsusa's man for Enver, Cemal, and Talat, set up death squads in the region. Some of these people were convicted criminals who were saved from the gallows and released from prison just to carry out such activities...The whole affair is that simple and clear. Bahaittin was just like today's `Yesil' or Catli. In addition to them, Turkish and Kurdish tribes also attacked the convoys of Armenians being deported. In addition to these actual massacres, there were the terrible losses caused by the deportations carred out in appalling conditions of deprivation."

"In addition, it's deceptive to turn the matter into a question as to whether or not Enver and Talat Pasha gave a written order to the `Yesil' or Catli of the day. They never did so, and no such document will ever be found. In this regard, the witnesses of the day are extremely important. There is a huge body of eyewitness accounts and visual material concerning the Armenian incidents that never reaches the Turkish public. Turkish public opinion is essentially ignorant of what the people of Germany, England, France, and America see and read."

So asia - I hope I have addressed your concerns in this manner. Now I ask you again - Was it genocide?

[salihoral2]

Hi Folks,
I'm a 30 years old Turkish guy from Istanbul. While I was reading the postings I realized that Asia was banned. What happened to Asia? Why she (I believe she) has been banned? She was one of the moderate persons that u may discuss this subject, as I read.

[Joseph]

Hi Folks,
I'm a 30 years old Turkish guy from Istanbul. While I was reading the postings I realized that Asia was banned. What happened to Asia? Why she (I believe she) has been banned? She was one of the moderate persons that u may discuss this subject, as I read.

Asia violated the number#1 rule of the forum, denial of the Genocide. Additionally she posted information from a well-known denialst website set up by the Turkish Government. This site has been set up for the purpose to discuss the Genocide and to exchange information regarding it, no to debate it.

[salihoral2]

So we can't THINK here that genocide is not happened. We must think it happened, as u. Than what do u discuss about? Soccer games? or recipes?

Are you going to bann me too? Is this the approach to understand each other? Is this the discussion? I am gonna be polite and share your sufferings. And you will bann me since I don't share your thoughts.

If I were an English or Cambodian you may have the right to do this. But I'm Turkish -a side of this crap. At least you should be bold enough to face the answers.

[Joseph]

So we can't THINK here that genocide is not happened. We must think it happened, as u. Than what do u discuss about? Soccer games? or recipes?

Are you going to bann me too? Is this the approach to understand each other? Is this the discussion? I am gonna be polite and share your sufferings. And you will bann me since I don't share your thoughts.

If I were an English or Cambodian you may have the right to do this. But I'm Turkish -a side of this crap. At least you should be bold enough to face the answers.

I will re-state what I wrote above once again for your benefit; the purpose of this site is to discuss the Genocide and exhcange information and insight regarding it, not to debate it.

If this does not interest you, you can always leave and perhaps set up your own website.

[Joseph]

http://www.armeniangenocide.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2346

[Joseph]

do u know any website that I can express my thoughts about AG...

No, I do not. Perhaps you can start your own denialist website. I'd wish you good luck but that would be a lie.

May you live in fascinating times and meet interesting people.

[Nick_A]

Salihoral

So we can't THINK here that genocide is not happened. We must think it happened, as u. Than what do u discuss about? Soccer games? or recipes?

Are you going to bann me too? Is this the approach to understand each other? Is this the discussion? I am gonna be polite and share your sufferings. And you will bann me since I don't share your thoughts.

If I were an English or Cambodian you may have the right to do this. But I'm Turkish -a side of this crap. At least you should be bold enough to face the answers.

While I agree there is same truth to what you say, you cannot deny the value of a site that exists on the basis of the Armenian Genocide being considered as fact.

If the site became open to heated exchanges of political talking points it would become meaningless in regards the higher aim of recognition for the
Armenian Genocide.

Just speaking for me, I have two different tasks. The first is helping achieve recognition and the second is in convincing nice Turkish people with doubts and without an axe to grind, that it happened. Consider this article's page 2:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0423/p...eu.html?page=1

At Armenia's genocide memorial and museum, which sits on a hill overlooking the country's capital Yerevan, 12 gray granite blocks extend into the air, protecting an eternal flame, in front of which visitors have placed flowers. A long wall records the names of cities in Turkey where Armenians were evicted and killed. In front of it, a large poster depicts the face of Hrant Dink, the Armenian-Turkish journalist assassinated in Istanbul, Turkey, in January.

"This is not only an Armenian issue," says Hayl Demoyan, the museum and monument's young new director. "What do we see now? We seen endless genocides and denials of those genocides."

Mr. Demoyan, whose family left the city of Kars in eastern Turkey, is charged with protecting and researching the event's history.

But he is also anxious that the museum not demonize Turks and is considering an exhibit about Turkish people who saved Armenians. He believes coming to terms with the past will help Turkey embrace a new future and prevent future genocides from occurring. "Turkey is at a crossroads," he says. "One road leads to democratization. The other is destructive and leads to nationalism."

For many survivors and their families, though, animosity and distrust still run deep. Melikyan's son, Karen Melikyan, was raised on tales of the family's lost lands in Turkey, which many Armenians still call "Western Armenia." As a child, he heard endless stories about their beautiful two-story house in Igdir, the Russian gold coins – the family's life savings – traded for meager handfuls of flour when the family arrived in Armenia, and the old dog Challo who miraculously followed them to Yerevan a year later.

Many here hoped that the assassination of Mr. Dink, which led to a massive outpouring of support within Turkey, would help mend relations between the two countries, although most now feel that that opportunity has passed.

"The genocide, the massacres, are rooted so deeply in the Armenian psyche," says Karen. "I don't see that we can live together again. I'm not saying they are good or bad, but they are cruel. That is the way they are, and we have to be smart."

But others suggest that while the past cannot be forgotten, more effort needs to be made to build bridges with Turkey. "Of course the genocide is one of the most tragic chapters of our history and we need to make every effort to prevent this in the future," says Artur Baghdasaryan, an opposition politician and former speaker of parliament. "But we think our future relations with Turkey cannot be defined only by genocide."

It just makes sense that the Turkish people that fought against it and helped the Armenians should be made known. But I do believe that Mr. Baghdasyan may be right that future relations will be about more than the Genocide but quite wrong if he belives it can be pushed under the rug for the sake of economics.

So yes there must be discussions but I cannot see their value if the people discussing are committed to denying the Genocide? This low form of political expression makes meaningful discussion impossible.

I know some Turkish people that couldn't hurt a fly much less be supportive of a genocide. Yet I know the other side. So I relate with the nice people and respect their questions since they are coming up from a sincere desire to understand rather than achieve political influence.

This is why it is hard to mix the two since wherever there is an opening, a poliician will be there to try and manipulate it. I can understand very well why Joseph desires to keep the site with only cautious exceptions, for the purpose of recognition of the Armenian Genocide.