Let's rewind the movie

[Steph]

You just cannot be indifferent or cold war style hostile towards your neighbours anymore if you want peace and prosperity in your country.

So perhaps turkey should consider opening the border,quit the aggressive military posturing (including especially when turkish politicians visit baku). Open real discussions with Kurdistan in Northern Iraq to offer real conclusions and solutions there. Provide for an outcome in Cyprus and desist from Cold War style rhetoric against Greece and claiming her islands.
Looking at that very quick tour around turkey it's obvious that nobody on your street is a pal, perhaps you've answered your own questions.

[Steph]

I would say Armenians have had far too much excitement for about 10 centuries.

I'll second that !

[Alexandros]

joseph,

thank you for your nice words about me.

we are no politicians , but if a lots of ordinary people from both sides know and like each other,we slowly can change the public opinions and ongoing stupidity.

ı have a question to you.

is there anything like that written in A.R. s constitition that, borders of turkey is not accepted by A.R.?
and is there any possibility to solve the karabağ issue in peacefull ways with azerbeycan in short period?


it is true that turkey **and more importantly turkish peoples great majority**shows no signs of accepting the crime.believe me ,ı openly and rather loudly defend you here.so be nice to me ok??


but you see,if armenians **both diaspora and A.R.** can change the tactic,they will not loose nothing. because all the world people, if not all governments ,know the genocide by now. even our arabic brothers accept it.this struggle adds nothing to armenian cause anymore.

you people know turks very well. no need me to explain us to you. tension position can well go on for thousands of years. this wont effect turks much.we are used to this kind of endless struggles historicly.

actually this is a middle eastern position. nobody gains nothing.both sides are making a dog fight,loosing a lot without realising it.

a shift in armenian politics, may sound very risky. but an honest and peaceful approach, do have a chance to bring an apology from the turkish side.this is not a dream.

turkey has a 70 million population and the growth is going to stop at around 90-95 millions. this is good news for this area.

turkey will either become a european country***not necessaraly in eu***and join the civilization.

or turkey will become a typical militarist middle eastern islam country far away from civilization.**this is why we walk, calling ourselves armenians ,we dont want this**

which one is safer and better for A.R? and is it smart for armenians try to push turkey out of civilization.

greeks succeeded it. they are no more like us. they completely, mentally and socially,came to a very civilised level.they also became 3 times richer than turks in such a short period. thats why they support turkey about eu and turkey is no more a threat for them. we have lots to learn from them.

it might be interesting to consider different politics...

lal

greeks succeeded it. they are no more like us. they completely, mentally and socially,came to a very civilised level.they also became 3 times richer than turks in such a short period. thats why they support turkey about eu and turkey is no more a threat for them. we have lots to learn from them.

it might be interesting to consider different politics...

lal

The problems I see between Greece and Turkey are in my point of view pretty serious.Looking back when Venizelos and Ataturk were still alive Greece and Turkey had pretty good relations.That is not really the case today.It is true to say that after the earthquakes in Turkey 1999 that relations have strenghtened a little.Greece sent help to Turkey and so on...Turkey`s EU ambitions have also had some positive impact to some degree between Greece and Turkey.The good thing about Greece is that we got ridd of the military dictatorship between 1967-1974.Much thanks to the Greek people uprising against the Greek colonels and all the solidarity many European gave the Greek people.Greeks are for the most very EU friendly considering all the EU funds that have helped Greece to develop since its EU membership 1981 - though it wasn`t called EU back then.

I don`t want to get into the details about the Cyprus issue but I think that Greece(with the Greek junta) and Makarios have also some responsibility for what happened when Turkey invaded Cyprus 1974.This issue is not black and white.Let`s not also forget USA`s and Great Britain`s involvement who gave the "green light" to Turkey to invade Cyprus.It was all organized from the start.Turkey could have taken the whole island but it was USA and especially Kissinger(USA`s Foreign minister at that time) who said to Turkey how much of Cyprus they could occupy.And of course Turkey had also their plan for Cyprus so there are many sides here to blame.The problem is that the Turkish governments see Turkey`s invasion of Cyprus as an "intervention" and not as an invasion.This stance will not help Turkey to join the EU.And the Annan plan which TC`s voted in favour and GC`s voted against is not a plan you could justify the occupation of Cyprus just because the GC`s took their democratic right to vote against it.The GC`s didn`t vote against unification of Cyprus, they voted against the Annan plan because of the many unfair conditions the Annan plan had.

As for the Aegean problem there`s no doubt that Turkey has territorial claims.There are all the time Turkish violations of Greece`s airspace and territorial waters.The Turkish governments thinks that there are "grey zones" in the Aegean sea.Greece had many times proposed to go to the International tribunal of Hauge to solve the problem peacefully - Turkey does`t want that.Lately Greece and Turkey have tried through negotiations to solve the Aegean problem but nothing happens.Then we also have USA who have in their interest to have some kind of tensions between Greece and Turkey so they could sell their bloody weapons to both Greece and Turkey.Because if it wasn`t for the tensions Greece and Turkey had today then probably both countries wouldn`t need to buy so much weapons as they do today.

Turkey complains about the muslim minority in Greek thrace but has done nothing to help all the Greeks in Istanbul that were deported to Greece 1955 and 1964.Erdogan said when Karamanlis was recently in Turkey that the 10.000 Greeks that still have Turkish passports can come back to Turkey.Come back to where?All their properties were seized by the Turkish state.And by the way the Greeks were far more in Istanbul before the progrom started against the Greeks but also against other christians and even Jews too.I`m not saying that the Turks,Pomaks and Gypsys who lives in Greek Thrace had always been treated fair by the Greek state but they are far better in Greece than the christian minority in Turkey.Then I haven`t mentioned the problems the Greek patriarch faces and all the properties the Turkish state have seized.The Turkish authorites closed the theological school of halki in the 70`s.Turkey wants Greece to recognize all the muslims that lives in Greek Thrace as a Turkish minority.First Turkey kicks out all the Greeks from Istanbul and then Turkey demands more rights for the Turks living in Greece?There are nearly no Greeks left in Istanbul.Come to Greek Thrace and you will see the muslim minority thriving.Not all muslims are Turks in Greek Thrace.Still Turkey see it this way.

There are many problems that needs to be solved between Greece and Turkey before Turkey can join the EU.But I still think that the Turkish military causes too many problems not only for your own country but also for the political relations between Greece and Turkey.The Turkish military has too much power in Turkey.I was more positive from the beginning that Turkey one day will join the EU.But not so much today.As for the Greek governments supporting Turkey to join the EU is not unconditional.Greece hopes that Turkey will fulfill all the EU requirements and become more democratic.There is also pressure from USA that neither Greece nor Cyprus should use its veto to stop Turkey joining EU.

[Steph]

ı dont consider diaspora armenian like your wife and many others considering turks totally as evil people, mentally healthy.

lal

Lal,
My wife was born and lived in Yerevan for her first 23 years. Long enough to see all the trees cut down in the city's avenues for fuel, open fires in multi-storey apartment blocks, shortages of water, fuel and food and all other necessities for life,refugees from baku and Artsakh living in derelict buildings, all thanks to the blockade imposed by turkey and azer bad,jan.
Anti-Armenian pogroms in azer bad,jan, assaults throughout Soviet Union by turks against Armenians. I could go on. And on.
Was this greatly different from the treatment meted out by the turks in Western Armenia between 1880's and 1915???
Does the pattern differ so greatly? I think not, and given the opportunity the turkish and azeri military would resume the lethal phase of the Genocide.
That is why my wife will hold no truck with turks. I'm sorry. Sorry for her. Sorry for Armenia.Sorry for you. Sorry for turks like you, but until you can become the majority..............

[lal]

The problems I see between Greece and Turkey are in my point of view pretty serious.Looking back when Venizelos and Ataturk was still alive Greece and Turkey had pretty good relations.That is not really the case today.It is true to say that after the earthquakes in Turkey 1999 that relations have strenghtened a little.Greece sent help to Turkey and so on...Turkey`s EU ambitions have also had some positive impact to some degree between Greece and Turkey.The good thing about Greece is that we got ridd of the military dictatorship between 1967-1974.Much thanks to the Greek people uprising against the Greek colonels and all the solidarity many European gave the Greek people.Greeks are for the most very EU friendly considering all the EU funds that have helped Greece to develop since its EU membership 1981 - though it wasn`t called EU back then.

I don`t want to get into the details about the Cyprus issue but I think that Greece(with the Greek junta) and Makarios have also some responsibility for what happened when Turkey invaded Cyprus 1974.This issue is not black and white.Let`s not also forget USA`s and Great Britain`s involvement who gave the "green light" to Turkey to invade Cyprus.It was all organized from the start.Turkey could have taken the whole island but it was USA and especially Kissinger(USA`s Foreign minister at that time) who said to Turkey how much of Cyprus they could occupy.And of course Turkey had also their plan for Cyprus so there are many sides here to blame.The problem is that the Turkish governments see Turkey`s invasion of Cyprus as an "intervention" and not as an invasion.This stance will not help Turkey to join the EU.And the Annan plan which TC`s voted in favour and GC`s voted against is not a plan you could justify the occupation of Cyprus just because the GC`s took their democratic right to vote against it.The GC`s didn`t vote against unification of Cyprus, they voted against the Annan plan because of the many unfair conditions the Annan plan had.

As for the Aegean problem there`s no doubt that Turkey has territorial claims.There are all the time Turkish violations of Greece`s airspace and territorial waters.The Turkish governments thinks that there are "grey zones" in the Aegean sea.Greece had many times proposed to go to the International tribunal of Hauge to solve the problem peacefully - Turkey does`t want that.Lately Greece and Turkey have tried through negotiations to solve the Aegean problem but nothing happens.Then we also have USA who have in their interest to have some kind of tensions between Greece and Turkey so they could sell their bloody weapons to both Greece and Turkey.Because if it wasn`t for the tensions Greece and Turkey had today then probably both countries wouldn`t need to buy so much weapons as they do today.

Turkey complains about the muslim minority in Greek thrace but has done nothing to help all the Greeks in Istanbul that were deported to Greece 1955 and 1964.Erdogan said when Karamanlis was recently in Turkey that the 10.000 Greeks that still have Turkish passports can come back to Turkey.Come back to where?All their properties were seized by the Turkish state.And by the way the Greeks were far more in Istanbul before the progrom started against the Greeks but also against other christians and even Jews too.I`m not saying that the Turks,Pomaks and Gypsys who lives in Greek Thrace had always been treated fair by the Greek state but they are far better in Greece than the christian minority in Turkey.Then I haven`t mentioned the problems the Greek patriarch faces and all the properties the Turkish state have seized.The Turkish authorites closed the theological school of halki in the 70`s.Turkey wants Greece to recognize all the muslims that lives in Greek Thrace as a Turkish minority.First Turkey kicks out all the Greeks from Istanbul and then Turkey demands more rights for the Turks living in Greece?There are nearly no Greeks left in Istanbul.Come to Greek Thrace and you will see the muslim minority thriving.Not all muslims are Turks in Greek Thrace.Still Turkey see it this way.

There are many problems that needs to be solved between Greece and Turkey before Turkey can join the EU.But I still think that the Turkish military causes too many problems not only for your own country but also for the political relations between Greece and Turkey.The Turkish military has too much power in Turkey.I was more positive from the beginning that Turkey one day will jon the EU.But not so much today.As for the Greek governments supporting Turkey to join the EU is not unconditional.Greece hopes that Turkey will fulfill all the EU requirements and become more democratic.There is also pressure from USA that neither Greece nor Cyprus should use its veto to stop Turkey joining EU.

well, ı almost agree most you wrote here, except that today there is no more threat from turkey to greece.ı know this.

turkey took all its agean army from west to eastern turkey which is a clear sign that there are no plans to fight against greeks. but before the earthquake ,there was a great chance of war.

there may be a lots of problems between us, but unless turkish public can be provocated and prepared for such a great and terrible clash,there cant be a war. also greek is a eu land. it must be millions of difficult to attack there any more, unless we are attacked first.

but ı just cant understand one thing. why greece claim lands about rocks just few meters away of turkish coasts in where humans cant even settle. why do you come for fishing few meters close to our coasts when all the aegean is yours. isnt that funny?

turkey may have invaded northern cyprus for rightful reasons. but we stayed too long there.ı only wish greeks voted for the annan plan and then everything would be solved.

turkey will never be in eu. no turk has such a hope. to be honest ,our culture,our religon and our population and our more middleeastern minority kurds are not suitable for eu s christian club. but the talks and hopes must go on for long long years between us for the sake of world peace.

ı also thank you for your nice tone.it is , this tone between humans that will someday solve all the problems between us,even if we cant see those days.

lal

[Alexandros]

well, ı almost agree most you wrote here, except that today there is no more threat from turkey to greece.ı know this.

turkey took all its agean army from west to eastern turkey which is a clear sign that there are no plans to fight against greeks. but before the earthquake ,there was a great chance of war.

there may be a lots of problems between us, but unless turkish public can be provocated and prepared for such a great and terrible clash,there cant be a war. also greek is a eu land. it must be millions of difficult to attack there any more, unless we are attacked first.

but ı just cant understand one thing. why greece claim lands about rocks just few meters away of turkish coasts in where humans cant even settle. why do you come for fishing few meters close to our coasts when all the aegean is yours. isnt that funny?

turkey may have invaded northern cyprus for rightful reasons. but we stayed too long there.ı only wish greeks voted for the annan plan and then everything would be solved.

turkey will never be in eu. no turk has such a hope. to be honest ,our culture,our religon and our population and our more middleeastern minority kurds are not suitable for eu s christian club. but the talks and hopes must go on for long long years between us for the sake of world peace.

ı also thank you for your nice tone.it is , this tone between humans that will someday solve all the problems between us,even if we cant see those days.

lal

well, ı almost agree most you wrote here, except that today there is no more threat from turkey to greece.ı know this.

I disagree with that.Read below...

turkey took all its agean army from west to eastern turkey which is a clear sign that there are no plans to fight against greeks. but before the earthquake ,there was a great chance of war.

Not all but some of its Aegean army.But that hasn`t stopped Turkey violating Greek airspace and Greek territorial waters.And Turkey has a naval base too in the Aegean sea.Greece has 10 n.m in the airspace and 6 n.m in the territorial waters.Turkey has threatened with war if Greece extends to 12 n.m in territorial waters even if Greece has the right to do that according to international laws.

there may be a lots of problems between us, but unless turkish public can be provocated and prepared for such a great and terrible clash,there cant be a war. also greek is a eu land. it must be millions of difficult to attack there any more, unless we are attacked first.

I don`t think USA would let 2 NATO members as Greece and Turkey into a full scale war.USA just wants some tensions between us so that Greece and Turkey should continue to buy their weapons.

but ı just cant understand one thing. why greece claim lands about rocks just few meters away of turkish coasts in where humans cant even settle. why do you come for fishing few meters close to our coasts when all the aegean is yours. isnt that funny?

I guess you are referring to Imia or as you Turks call it Kardak.It has never been Turkish since Greece and Turkey signed the Lausanne treaty:

Treaty of Lausanne,
ARTICLE 12.

The decision taken on the 13th February, 1914, by the Conference of London, in virtue of Articles 5 of the Treaty of London of the 17th-30th May, 1913, and 15 of the Treaty of Athens of the 1st-14th November, 1913, which decision was communicated to the Greek Government on the 13th February, 1914, regarding the sovereignty of Greece over the islands of the Eastern Mediterranean, other than the islands of Imbros, Tenedos and Rabbit Islands, particularly the islands of Lemnos, Samothrace, Mytilene, Chios, Samos and Nikaria, is confirmed, subject to the provisions of the present Treaty respecting the islands placed under the sovereigntyof Italy which form the subject of Article 15.

Except where a provision to the contrary is contained in the present Treaty, the islands situated at less than three miles from the Asiatic coast remain under Turkish sovereignty.

It's 3.8 miles away from the Asiatic coast. So it doesn't belong to Turkey.

turkey may have invaded northern cyprus for rightful reasons. but we stayed too long there.ı only wish greeks voted for the annan plan and then everything would be solved.

No it wouldn`t had solve anything.It was a plan to help Turkey join the EU and had nothing to do with justice for the GC`s.Turkey would even had the right to have some Turkish troops left on Cyprus.The GC`s could never accept that because they saw that as a continuation of the Turkish occupation.

turkey will never be in eu. no turk has such a hope. to be honest ,our culture,our religon and our population and our more middleeastern minority kurds are not suitable for eu s christian club. but the talks and hopes must go on for long long years between us for the sake of world peace.

If Turkey fulfills all the EU requirements then I think Turkey should have the right to join the EU.But there are some problems that have to be solved between Greece and Turkey before Turkey joins the EU - especially the Cyprus issue.It has nothing to do with religion or culture in my honest opinion.

ı also thank you for your nice tone.it is , this tone between humans that will someday solve all the problems between us,even if we cant see those days.

lal

You are welcome lal.

[imported_crusader1492]

...but ı just cant understand one thing. why greece claim lands about rocks just few meters away of turkish coasts in where humans cant even settle. why do you come for fishing few meters close to our coasts when all the aegean is yours. isnt that funny?...


lal

The answer to this is obvious. You give Turks an inch and they take a mile:

Turkey's lust to dominate their neighbors causes a slippery slope concerning ceding land. In other words, if Greece gave up these uninhabitable island to Turkey in a peaceful way, Turkey would see this as a sign of weakness and would in turn, demand more land from Greece.

An recent example of this concerns the Azeri Turk president, Aliev, who is now saying "Yerevan belongs to Armenia". This kind of talk from Aliev is only happening because Armenia engages in talks with Baku and part of these talks concerns ceding "liberated terratories".
Armenia can only make Aliev retreat from these aggressive statements by taking a hard line with him. That would mean Armenia should not only say the "liberated terratories" will never be given up, but also say Nakichevan is next if hostilities are resumed.
Aliev would not be so encouraged if this were done.

[1.5 million]

Lal -

You should understand that the Aegean coast of Anatolia was once (and for a great many centuries) the lands of Ionia and Aeolia - integral to Greek culture and civilization and the birthplace of some of the most advanced science and philosophy and culture of the ancient era. All of the peoples of the Middle East and Anatolia (including Turks) know Greeks as Ionians - this is a testament to the centrality of and achievements of the Ionian Greeks. OK - all that is left to the Greeks (of the once proud Ionian and Aeolian lands) are a bunch of small Islands off the coast of Anatolia - but the symbology of these islands for them is perhaps beyond your and most people's understanding. Please try to imagine how the greeks must feel about the loss of Ionia and these lands and their legacy - as much a part of Greece as Athens itself...

[hitite]

Oh, hitite, I despair! I posted very brief details of friendship I have with a couple of turks only a few days ago. Granted my wife will hold no truck with turks at all, to her all turks are black not grey.

Doesn't change the fact that you and probably many Armenians have their own brainwashing issues which it seems every Armenian around here believes a Turk is born with.

hitite, I find the idea of an Armenian needing a turk too much at odds with any images in my real world.

... which further proves my point.

Imagine that you're Armenian living in Armenia,you cook from propane gas, your car is converted to run on propane, you save and conserve water to allow for the cut-offs, you can't rely on electricity. Every time you look from your window you see Masis (Ararat) but you can't walk on it's slopes.
How would you view turks, and of course....azeris ?

Cross the border and you'll see its not that different... Ok, so you hate Turks and I really dont have a problem with that. I just hate the fact that you try to portray yourself as if you are so different from a brainwashed Turk when its quite obvious you are EXACTLY the same.

So perhaps turkey should consider opening the border,quit the aggressive military posturing (including especially when turkish politicians visit baku). Open real discussions with Kurdistan in Northern Iraq to offer real conclusions and solutions there. Provide for an outcome in Cyprus and desist from Cold War style rhetoric against Greece and claiming her islands.
Looking at that very quick tour around turkey it's obvious that nobody on your street is a pal, perhaps you've answered your own questions.

I too want Turkey to open its borders. Thats what I was trying to say when you were misreading my post about bordering countries "needing" eachother. Opening this border has a lot to do with Turkey kissing Azeri ass for their oil so there is a good deal of real politik involved and which needs to be overcome. If Armenia can find something good to offer Turkey I am sure things will change but right now they can only offer cheap labor. Relations with Iran, Iraq, Syria, Greece and Bulgaria are at its very best since decades and the situation in Cyprus is at a stalemate so in actuality things are relatively much better than ever. To me it seems like you see Turkey the way you "wish" to see it rather than how it really is so again I leave you to rest in your Armenian Wonder Land.... which by the way could be an excellent name for a new beach resort in Antalya

[Steph]

Ok, so you hate Turks and I really dont have a problem with that. I just hate the fact that you try to portray yourself as if you are so different from a brainwashed Turk when its quite obvious you are EXACTLY the same.

You're wrong, I don't hate turks, some admittedly not many, are friends,in the real world you could probably become one! But then again I'm on Fantasy Island. I do have issues with turkey,turanism, islam and denial of historical fact. I'm sure you share some of my issues here.

I too want Turkey to open its borders. Thats what I was trying to say when you were misreading my post about bordering countries "needing" eachother. so again I leave you to rest in your Armenian Wonder Land.... which by the way could be an excellent name for a new beach resort in Antalya

Yes that would be an idea....turkish tourist information explaining to German holidaymakers where the Armenians had gone to...........perhaps excursions to Deir el-Zor, after all Auschwitz has become quite the attraction.