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The real weakness of turks

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  • #41
    Originally posted by phantom View Post
    You're preaching to the choir. I support Turkey's entry into the EU, and so does Armenia, and so do most diaspora Armenians.
    Agreed

    And don't blame us (or even the racist Euros) when your MIT delibertly F's it up so not to give up the power that they hold.

    Comment

    • #42
      Originally posted by phantom View Post
      You're preaching to the choir. I support Turkey's entry into the EU, and so does Armenia, and so do most diaspora Armenians.
      It's easy to support turkey's entry into the EU from the USA. Europe is trying too hard to accomodate muslims already without 70 million +++ entering with all the attendant issues.

      It's fine to advocate turkey's entry from the other side of the Atlantic.

      I really fail to see any connection betweem Recognition and membership of the EU. Seperate the two issues, deal with them independently. turks divert much of the energy calling for Genocide Recognition by constantly adding unrelated issues to discussion.

      Many Armenians seem willing to trade Recognition for some benefits to turkey.
      Why???

      Comment

      • #43
        Originally posted by 1.5 million View Post
        Agreed

        And don't blame us (or even the racist Euros) when your MIT delibertly F's it up so not to give up the power that they hold.
        Racist Euros????????

        1.5, I invite you to UK and witness how racist we are here. Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, Jews and other religious minorities, racial minorities are integrated fully into the community at large. In fact, positive-discrimination has gone so far as to give a position and voice to minority groups far out of proportion to their actual size.

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        • #44
          Originally posted by steph View Post
          turks divert much of the energy calling for Genocide Recognition by constantly adding unrelated issues to discussion.

          Many Armenians seem willing to trade Recognition for some benefits to turkey.
          Why???
          Steph, you continue to have serious problems of seeing your own demons in the Turk in your strange quest to further vilify us.

          It was the Armenians of Europe who, in collaboration with other higher bodies against Turkish accession, lobbied and demonstrated against Turkey. It was you who brought in the AG and tied it up with Turkeys bid, not us.

          So it was your relatives mostly in France that added "unrelated issues to discussion". YOU let France use your cause and your millions of dead for Frances own petty political needs and what did the Armenians get out of it... NOTHING....

          This can go on forever and I have started to think that some groups in Turkey and the Armenian disapora are making a good living out of this political recognition idiocy. They know Turkey will not budge "politically" as long as this whole thing is kept on a political level.... so let the sweet money keep rolling in......

          Comment

          • #45
            Steph - I said for the Turks not to blame "racist Euros" - however it is clear that many will oppose Turkish membership into the EU for purely racial/religious (or what have you) reasons regardless (and perhaps this point is not entirely without merit - but I think is dependent on the Turks to some extent as well).Turkey joining the EU will have more to do with Turkish reform (and momentum) regardless of the attitiudes I think. And I am strongly in favor of Turkish EU membership (from the perspective of it being good for Turkey/Turks as well as good for the rest of us in how it will be a force to modify the Turkish political system and society - however I still also strongly believe that some Turkish acknowledgement/acceptance of the Armenian Genocide as real historical fact is necessary as well. The bottom line is that it is up to the Turkish powers that be (MIT) to make the necessary steps and I feel that in the long run they are not inclined to do so but would rather blame European anti-Turkish racism when in fact this is only a minor issue and not the main factor in regards to Turkish entry. Again I see the ball in Turkey's court - so what will they do? The status quo is not acceptable IMO.

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            • #46
              Originally posted by hitite View Post
              Steph, you continue to have serious problems of seeing your own demons in the Turk in your strange quest to further vilify us.

              It was the Armenians of Europe who, in collaboration with other higher bodies against Turkish accession, lobbied and demonstrated against Turkey. It was you who brought in the AG and tied it up with Turkeys bid, not us.

              So it was your relatives mostly in France that added "unrelated issues to discussion". YOU let France use your cause and your millions of dead for Frances own petty political needs and what did the Armenians get out of it... NOTHING....

              This can go on forever and I have started to think that some groups in Turkey and the Armenian disapora are making a good living out of this political recognition idiocy. They know Turkey will not budge "politically" as long as this whole thing is kept on a political level.... so let the sweet money keep rolling in......
              Okay, Hittite, let's agree on one thing.

              turkish Recognition of the Armenian Genocide should not be linked to any pre-conditions. It should be dealt with as an entirely seperate issue, as should potential EU membership (I think you know my view on that),the blockade of Armenia, Artsakh, the Cyprus situation, Kurdistan, etc.

              turkey's main problem is that the political leadership is stuck in 1920's and still struggling with their "War of Independence".

              (BTW independence from who/whom?)

              Comment

              • #47
                Originally posted by steph View Post
                Okay, Hittite, let's agree on one thing.

                turkish Recognition of the Armenian Genocide should not be linked to any pre-conditions. It should be dealt with as an entirely seperate issue, as should potential EU membership (I think you know my view on that),the blockade of Armenia, Artsakh, the Cyprus situation, Kurdistan, etc.

                turkey's main problem is that the political leadership is stuck in 1920's and still struggling with their "War of Independence".

                (BTW independence from who/whom?)

                you offer the easiest thing, no solution to nothing. not a new offer, thats what is going on today.

                we humans have feeligs and on individual levels,depending on our surrounding,culture , our opinions can be affected by emotions.

                but states dont have any feelings, they only act according to the benefits of the state.

                if we consider all these problems independent from each other.

                why should armenians leave karabağ, where only armenians live today?
                why should azeris stop hostility after loosing her lands?
                why should turkey open the borders?

                and why should turkey accept the genocide?

                these are all related to each other. and they can be solved only if every side have considarable gains ---and reasonable losses--in the bargain.

                but on the other hand, not offering a solution is also a choice.

                this is what most of armenians and turks do. armenians wait turkey be destroyed and seperated into pieces, by internal rebells and islamizm. and turks wait armenia to loose some more blood and population and give up the struggle and surrender to turkey.


                my opinions are only in individual level. ı said so far what ı believed. but ı must say ,ı have little hope for any kind of peace. because people dont want this.

                lal

                Comment

                • #48
                  Originally posted by lal View Post
                  and why should turkey accept the genocide?
                  Does it make you feel good to perpetuate a lie? If so then keep on denying the Armenian Genocide (this is addressed to the Turkish nation not necisarily you lal - though if you feel as you have recently stated maybe you ought to check the length of your nose.)

                  Comment

                  • #49
                    Originally posted by 1.5 million View Post
                    Does it make you feel good to perpetuate a lie? If so then keep on denying the Armenian Genocide (this is addressed to the Turkish nation not necisarily you lal - though if you feel as you have recently stated maybe you ought to check the length of your nose.)

                    accepting the genocide for the turkish state means an extremely big shift in politics of turkey. it is not a simple apology. it is facing the history.it is feeling ashame ,instead of feeling pride from the things happened.this is a tranformation of sunni islamizm,militarizm, semi democracy to real democracy,real human rights and first class democracy.a great shift.being a western country.

                    accepting the crime of past,will result of accepting other peoples rights in anatolia today and probably cause a loose federation with kurds,

                    how will this happen in turkey. what will make the ruling elite, and military to accept such a great transformation, without gaining nothing,but very possibly loosing the unity of the country.


                    this is not much different than wondering why syria dont have democracy.


                    we need a great ,real leader to take such a high risk,which well may end with the execution of the leader.and our islamist leader is not the correct one.

                    Comment

                    • #50
                      ı have a little request from you all. please dont try to figure out which side ı belong to. ı definitly belong to turkish side. ı will never say turkey must give lands to armenia.but on the other hand, ı prefer a better ,modern turkey. ı really think the remaining armenians in turkey and armenians in armenia dont deserve , what they get from turkish state today and in the past at all. in that way, ı feel ,ım totally together with the armenians.


                      but although individually ı dont share the official politics of turkish state,to be realistic,accepting the armenian genocide by turkish state or turkish people in general is really a difficult,complex issue and cant be solved without certain conditions and bargains between three nations and eu.

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