Calling all Turks

[imported_ferdi]

Joseph is absolutely right. Ferdi, I apologize for being rude.

I can’t figure you out Ferdi. I have butt heads with many Turks but there is something very different about you. Part of me wants to drag the Turkish dirt all over this conversation but the other part agrees with you to some degree.
Your assessment of how Turks feel, it appears to be very true but it also very strange to me as an Armenians that you guys would feel like that. Once I put myself in your shoes however I can understand that it is not easy at all to think that your forefather were responsible for such acts without a very good reason such as the survival of your nation, so a subconscious mind will have to find justification, we are after all human, all of us. My Grandmother who had learned your language perfectly spoke well of many Turks until the day she died, this is even after she almost took poison in order to prevent herself from being sold off in the Market to the Kurds or Persians. I could never understand it. She was only 12 then, she did manage to escape but she remembered quite a bit. Maybe she was talking about people like you Ferdi, I don’t know.

So Ferdi, you said




But how do we get people to identify with the individual sufferings to move beyond this well established mindset. Do you have any idea? Are you suggesting that Armenians take the first step when Turkey has the ball in their court?

Edoman, I was getting a bit overwhelmed with all the ‘love’ directed at me. Obviously there’s a lot of passionate people here, understandably. Nevertheless, I think to continue to engage everyone will need to temper their feelings. It works both ways, believe me the ranting and ravings and gross insensitivity of some my fellow countrymen is a source of embarrassment to me as well. Also, I don’t feel the need to respond to every bit of criticism directed at Turkey i.e. article 301, Hrank Dink, censorship etc. Turkey is a big complex country, it’s not run by the Dalai Lama, so no one is claiming spiritual and moral enlightenment. It will improve its democratic credentials eventually. It will not implode, that’s a pipe dream. Too many countries have vested interests (just like history) to let that ever happen. Armenians should know that better than most.

I didn’t come onboard to offend anybody or offer magic solutions but just my personal perspective (a different Turkish insight, for those who didn’t already know). However, I do strongly object when I read some (not you or Saco) equating the AG due to a genetic defect in Turks. Slandering today’s Turkish citizens is not a “call for simple moral decency”, its diatribe. Fear, greed, weakness, paranoia and violence caused the genocide, not inherit demonic forces in a particular race. I’m guessing your grandmother knew that (may she rest in peace). By the way, isn’t it amazing that the people with the least reason to forgive are usually the first to do so. Human nature is rarely predictable I suppose.

To answer your question, I’m not sure how we get people to identify with the individual sufferings to move beyond their established mindset. But I’ll throw another wild suggestion out there before getting drowned out. As impossible as it sounds, I think we may need 10 years of collective amnesia, just to give interaction between Turks and Armenians a chance. After which we would need to sit down and revisit every aspect of our collective history and offer the appropriate recourse. Perhaps including symbolic gestures like joint sovereignty of Mt Ararat, right of return for ancestors of Armenians interested, amongst other things to start healing this festering sore. For that reason, I believe the current Armenian governments suggestion of forming relations first and then subsequently engaging in joint research is probably a more rational approach. However I fear that with the Machiavellian games played out in foreign parliaments with the recognition issue this is going to be a long way off.

[Sako]

Edoman, I was getting a bit overwhelmed with all the ‘love’ directed at me. Obviously there’s a lot of passionate people here, understandably. Nevertheless, I think to continue to engage everyone will need to temper their feelings.

True, I agree here guys, but you need to open your eyes and ears Ferdi. This topic has been studied here way more then you, I think we can agree with that and I'm not saying just GO with what we say, I'm saying try to understand and don't doubt too much. We've said many things more then once, not that I'm saying that's wrong, it just annoys eventually, that's all.

It works both ways, believe me the ranting and ravings and gross insensitivity of some my fellow countrymen is a source of embarrassment to me as well. Also, I don’t feel the need to respond to every bit of criticism directed at Turkey i.e. article 301, Hrank Dink, censorship etc. Turkey is a big complex country, it’s not run by the Dalai Lama, so no one is claiming spiritual and moral enlightenment.

All the countries in the world aren't run by the Dalai Lama, but you don't see them all doing half of what Turkey has done and still does. Turkey has been more of a unstable country then a complex country. We all have our problems but Turkey has had a few special problems. The greed and all you mention was there before the Armenian Genocide as well and not necessarily after 1915. We have to accept this fact to move on because Turkey has done A LOT in the past, not only to Armenians. It's had its had it's golden years too though, we all have those years.

It will improve its democratic credentials eventually. It will not implode, that’s a pipe dream. Too many countries have vested interests (just like history) to let that ever happen. Armenians should know that better than most.

Who said we don't? No one wants Turkey to vanish from the earth (well, some do) and there's no reason for that to happen. Times have changed but if Turkey ever even thinks of doing something against Armenia AGAIN Ferdi my friend, I won't be able to say anything anymore. Turkey might vanish from the earth for real, God forbid. Many countries have grudges against the Turks nowadays and that's mainly Turkey's fault. There are things that Turks do that just confuse you. Then there are other things that are simply stupid.

I didn’t come onboard to offend anybody or offer magic solutions but just my personal perspective (a different Turkish insight, for those who didn’t already know).

Ferdi, I know that and I accept your views as coming from a person who tries to do or say something from his/her heart. I have no objection but you have to know, even in that case, what your saying, when your saying it, and whom your saying it to. Your offer wasn't bad but this is not the time for that. Many could even feel hurt from your offer and I can tell you why. For the simple fact that your offer will come into play when two countries at least have a tiny bit of respect for each other. But when you come up and offer Armenians to take a major step forward which doesn't even have anything to do with the Genocide which is the main problem here, it is very offending even in certain respects. I hope you get my drift, don't take this personally. I wasn't offended because I understood you and the fact that you didn't completely appreciate the gravity of the situation. If you did completely and still came up here with your offer, I think the word retarded would be appropriate and suitable for you. I'm happy that's not the case, I don't like to criticize.

However, I do strongly object when I read some (not you or Saco) equating the AG due to a genetic defect in Turks.

I don't see why! We all have our defects and minor habits but yeah, I think saying ALL Turks are evil and mental people is simply showing how full of xxxx YOU personally are, not the Turks. Turkey has shown a lot of habits that deserve great criticism though Ferdi, let's not even think of shunning that away. We all have some habits, but some have more and some have less.

Slandering today’s Turkish citizens is not a “call for simple moral decency”, its diatribe. Fear, greed, weakness, paranoia and violence caused the genocide, not inherit demonic forces in a particular race. I’m guessing your grandmother knew that (may she rest in peace). By the way, isn’t it amazing that the people with the least reason to forgive are usually the first to do so. Human nature is rarely predictable I suppose.

True and again, saying everyone is a demon is wrong. Come on, but those that started the Genocide are probably burning in hell right now. Many, many Turks have acted very critically and abusively in the past and that's a major reason why people denounce the Turks a lot. One worm spoils all the apples, at least that's how most think. That's the wrong mentality. But Turkey had more then one worm, let's remember that too.

To answer your question, I’m not sure how we get people to identify with the individual sufferings to move beyond their established mindset. But I’ll throw another wild suggestion out there before getting drowned out. As impossible as it sounds, I think we may need 10 years of collective amnesia, just to give interaction between Turks and Armenians a chance. After which we would need to sit down and revisit every aspect of our collective history and offer the appropriate recourse. Perhaps including symbolic gestures like joint sovereignty of Mt Ararat, right of return for ancestors of Armenians interested, amongst other things to start healing this festering sore. For that reason, I believe the current Armenian governments suggestion of forming relations first and then subsequently engaging in joint research is probably a more rational approach. However I fear that with the Machiavellian games played out in foreign parliaments with the recognition issue this is going to be a long way off.

I don't think Turks and Armenians will get the chances to talk properly with each other ten years later, what're we, turtles? The proof is right here, US. I've talked to many Turks and the problem I see is that the second we talk to each other, the Genocide crashes into the conversation. You read about my new site that I'm creating. Well, priority #1 is to get Turks and Armenians talking Ferdi so I don't see us tlaking ten years later, that's a terrible nightmare and I just woke up *yawns*. This site is something almost original you can say and I think you could help out there more then by giving suggestions here that can't be realized for a long time although they are good. Anyways, I think we all learned something here and Ferdi, stay active, it's people like you that makes Turkey worthwhile and you should talk more but you should know what your saying. Good luck in the long run to us and to both a brighter, more understanding Armenia and Turkey and I would love more Turks and Armenians to say that to themselves before going to bed and waking up in the morning. This world might actually become a better place that way. Enough with the xxxxed up politics and people who don't give a xxxx about the world.

[VaheTheGreat(e)]

However I fear that with the Machiavellian games played out in foreign parliaments with the recognition issue this is going to be a long way off.

Well I see the recognition of Genocide in foreign parliaments scary you as well…..LOL

[VaheTheGreat(e)]

Joseph, I beg to differ.

Someone else's death is awful, but my death is a tragedy.

Selfish, yes, but it's about perceptions, not numbers. So I'm not sure if your open to my point. That being, there are a whole bunch of Turks that are closed to 'walking in someone else shoes' (as per Saco's signature) because they believe their ancesters were murdered by Armenian militia's. Without much doubt it would have been horrible to be an Armenian in the Ottoman empire in 1915. I'm not here to pass judgement about that. Nevertheless, you yourself have conceded that attrocities were committed against innocent Turks. Why shouldn't their injustice be recognised, their memories honoured by Armenians? Yes, Armenians suffered disproportionately but this is missing the point. I wasn't comparing who suffered the most, nor did I use that as a justification for the genocide.

Isn’t that immoral to ask for recognition of minor atrocities when a real Genocide is still in denied?

[Steph]

Nevertheless, I think to continue to engage everyone will need to temper their feelings. It works both ways, believe me the ranting and ravings and gross insensitivity of some my fellow countrymen is a source of embarrassment to me as well.

Well, said Ferdi, I'm glad you're back, truly.

Turkey is a big complex country, it’s not run by the Dalai Lama, so no one is claiming spiritual and moral enlightenment. It will improve its democratic credentials eventually. It will not implode, that’s a pipe dream. Too many countries have vested interests (just like history) to let that ever happen. Armenians should know that better than most.

Don't be so sure, look at your neighbour Iran. Quite a few parallels there: an old imperial state, picked at by Britain and Russia, attempts to Westernize the country whilst marginalizing Islam, the vast majority of the population under-educated and to a degree disenfranchised, more marginalizing of Islam and suddenly "bye bye Shah, hello Ayotallah"

I didn’t come onboard to offend anybody or offer magic solutions but just my personal perspective (a different Turkish insight, for those who didn’t already know). However, I do strongly object when I read some (not you or Saco) equating the AG due to a genetic defect in Turks.

I don't think I equated the Genocide to a genetic defect in turks, I stated that turks carried out the Genocide, which they did. I supposed that there is a great deal of over-sensitivity in turks, generally, when asked to face the past.

Slandering today’s Turkish citizens is not a “call for simple moral decency”, its diatribe.

Today's turkish citizens are only asked one thing by myself : RECOGNITION.
The sins of the father/grandfather should not be visited upon today's turk......
BUT..denial is a stage of genocide in itself. The bulk of the turkish people deny the Genocide. Why ?? Can it be that the state indoctrination is so persuasive? What do turks fear from facing up to their responsibilities? Do you have the answer Ferdi?

Fear, greed, weakness, paranoia and violence caused the genocide, not inherit demonic forces in a particular race.

Fear of whom or what?
Greed, answers itself.
Weakness, mmm, 13 million threatened by 2.5 million mainly artisan/traders.
Paranoia, a collective mental issue for turks at that (and this?) time?
Violence didn't cause the Genocide, violence was an instrument of it.

. But I’ll throw another wild suggestion out there before getting drowned out. As impossible as it sounds, I think we may need 10 years of collective amnesia, just to give interaction between Turks and Armenians a chance.

turkey's nearly a century ahead in that one, I suppose what's another 10 years or so.

After which we would need to sit down and revisit every aspect of our collective history and offer the appropriate recourse. Perhaps including symbolic gestures like joint sovereignty of Mt Ararat, right of return for ancestors of Armenians interested, amongst other things to start healing this festering sore.

How about the symbolic gesture of RECOGNITION?

However I fear that with the Machiavellian games played out in foreign parliaments with the recognition issue this is going to be a long way off.

Machiavellian because they have recognised the Genocide? The games are played by Britain, the US and others for strategic purposes. The curse of Armenia since history began.

[Sako]

How about the symbolic gesture of RECOGNITION?

This is golden, I can't believe we have to remind everyone what to do! Nice one, Steph.

[Edoman]

Edoman, I was getting a bit overwhelmed with all the ‘love’ directed at me. Obviously there’s a lot of passionate people here, understandably.

You should see the welcoming reception I get when I engage your countrymen on your websites.

I don’t think anybody is saying that Turkey is going to implode at anytime; your military would never allow that to happen as we have seen in the past. In fact as US economic and political power is set to decline over the next two decades, according to the National Intelligence Council's Global Trends 2025 report, it predicts that China and India will compete with the US for influence while Iran, Turkey and Indonesia will also gain power. It also suggests that the world will grow more dangerous as the battle for scarce resources intensifies.

You offer good suggestions Ferdi but nothing can be achieved without mutual trust and frankly we can no longer trust this Turkish government. We have been backstabbed and betrayed far too many times by Turkey who uses our desires and ambitions to their advantage like the joint sovereignty of Mt Ararat that you brought up. Turkey would use that as a carrot to achieve certain aim, it will not be an act of reconciliation or sincerity. All it will end up achieving is more disappointments. Sincerity and meaningful actions without demands is the key. Recognizing the AG by the Turkish Government is the only way forward, as painful as that may be for Turkey. No matter how much Turkey makes life miserable for Armenia to try to make them drop this issue and continue making empty promises, we will not fall for it, we know better, we learned it the hard way.

[imported_ferdi]

Well, said Ferdi, I'm glad you're back, truly.




How about the symbolic gesture of RECOGNITION?



.

Be careful what you wish for. A symbolic gesture of recognition is likely leave you feeling shortchanged. I could imagine something like.... yeah, there was a genocide, it was regrettable, it's a pity no ones left to prosecute, we aren't legally responsible, so let's let bygones be bygones and all live happily ever after.

Saco, I can follow Stephs logic (i.e. mouth first, brain follows) but I thought you were smarter than that. What's golden about it????

[Sako]

You offer good suggestions Ferdi but nothing can be achieved without mutual trust and frankly we can no longer trust this Turkish government. We have been backstabbed and betrayed far too many times by Turkey who uses our desires and ambitions to their advantage like the joint sovereignty of Mt Ararat that you brought up.

You forgot to mention that they stab their own people so that's pretty much how the cookie crumbles.

Turkey would use that as a carrot to achieve certain aim, it will not be an act of reconciliation or sincerity. All it will end up achieving is more disappointments. Sincerity and meaningful actions without demands is the key. Recognizing the AG by the Turkish Government is the only way forward, as painful as that may be for Turkey. No matter how much Turkey makes life miserable for Armenia to try to make them drop this issue and continue making empty promises, we will not fall for it, we know better, we learned it the hard way.

The VERY hard way and the Turks know this. We aren't the innocent people that trusted them before. I wish, I really do, that I could say the same about the Turkish citizens.

Be careful what you wish for. A symbolic gesture of recognition is likely leave you feeling shortchanged.

Yeah, but your forgetting that that will never happen that's why Turkey hasn't done that yet. Half the world has grudges against Turkey and recognizes the Genocide. If Obama recognizes the Genocide, you can pretty much say the entire world recognizes the Genocide. Turkey doesn't know what's about to happen and if they don't end this peacefully it will end in some other way. No one is going to let this go, not only Armenians.

I could imagine something like.... yeah, there was a genocide, it was regrettable, it's a pity no ones left to prosecute, we aren't legally responsible, so let's let bygones be bygones and all live happily ever after.

This is one of them Turkish dreams.

Saco, I can follow Stephs logic (i.e. mouth first, brain follows) but I thought you were smarter than that.

Well, I could say the same about you in many respects so don't be making this personal.

What's golden about it????

The fact that you offered everything besides recognition and your ideas are not only not going to happen while Turkey acts like a Turkey but it's impossible in every way you look at it. We can't even talk normally nowadays and you want joint sovreignity of Mt. Ararat, an issue that almost matches the Genocide issue in terms of importance? You don't say the primary, you say the secondary and YES, it is offending in many ways so I think you'll understand better then me why people are getting on your case. You aren't wrong, I just don't think you appreciate the gravity of the situation. And when Steph here said "How about a symbolic gesture of RECOGNITION", he didn't mean symbolic recognition, he was teasing and on;y because you forgot the most important course of action Turks MUST take. THAT'S what's so golden about it, Ferdi. I hope you understand what's going on NOW. It isn't as simple as you'd like it to be.

[Steph]

Be careful what you wish for. A symbolic gesture of recognition is likely leave you feeling shortchanged. I could imagine something like.... yeah, there was a genocide, it was regrettable, it's a pity no ones left to prosecute, we aren't legally responsible, so let's let bygones be bygones and all live happily ever after.

Saco, I can follow Stephs logic (i.e. mouth first, brain follows) but I thought you were smarter than that. What's golden about it????

Ferdi, I offer you an olive branch but you continue to be offensive, yet when you are offended you display the typical turkish response of the "poor damsel in distress". Indeed, turks show the little dog syndrome too often, "bark bark yap yap" yet when kicked up the ass, they run and whelp and then next day "yap yap"

You truly are a turk.


So, according to your post , the reason for denial of the Genocide is fear of prosecution. Of whom and by whom? Unfortunately the perpetrators of the AG are long in hell, thankfully some put there by avenging angels.

Quite recently, Britain apologised for it's involvement in the slave during the 16th to 19th centuries, A SYMBOLIC GESTURE.

You may read English but I doubt you understand nuances. You ask for symbolic gestures........my point is that recognition by turkey would be just that, no more no less = SYMBOLIC!

Some Armenians strive for Recognition, restitution of Armenian provinces, return of Armenian properties and assets and compensation for the horror.
I don't believe that is practicable.

Again, turkey has nothing to fear, you have nothing to fear. We won't demand you go back to your Gobi homeland, you'd cause trouble there too.