Calling all Turks

[VaheTheGreat(e)]

Haha, thanks, especially for thinking twice before saying that from what it seems.

from what it seems?

[Sako]

You said

"well, its all right..."

and it read like there was a bit of doubt there, lol. The three periods and the word "well" creates that impression.

[bell-the-cat]

I really wonder whether this thread will progress anything.

Give him a gold medal for stating the obvious.

[bell-the-cat]

Hi there,

I am from Turkey and I used to visit this site under a different nick in 2004-2005 and to make comments or argue with people, mostly with Armenians of course.

Yep, it's an amusing pastime, but ultimately unfulfilling. After a while it becomes too much of an effort to place anything more that the occasional humorous or snide comment.

[imported_ferdi]

[QUOTE]

Ferdi, I offer you an olive branch but you continue to be offensive, yet when you are offended you display the typical turkish response of the "poor damsel in distress". Indeed, turks show the little dog syndrome too often, "bark bark yap yap" yet when kicked up the ass, they run and whelp and then next day "yap yap"

Steph, you're a provocateur but a witty one nonetheless. Since I'm not in the habit of throwing stones at every bark dog, let's move on from all this "bark bark yap yap" ..... my furry little friend :-)

So, according to your post , the reason for denial of the Genocide is fear of prosecution. Of whom and by whom? Unfortunately the perpetrators of the AG are long in hell, thankfully some put there by avenging angels.

Yes and no.
Yes for government officials worried about potential claims but No for the average Turk because the denial is based on the prevailing mindset which says it was self defense i.e. it was either us or them argument. The challenge will be getting this mindset aligned with historical realities. Now don’t tell me you could care less about a Turks mindset because if that were the case then you wouldn’t care whether any Turks acknowledged or not, as Armenians have already won the moral argument globally.

Some Armenians strive for Recognition, restitution of Armenian provinces, return of Armenian properties and assets and compensation for the horror.
I don't believe that is practicable.

I don’t either; nevertheless I would still like to see genuine acknowledgement and reconciliation one day. I’m just a little surprised that making a symbolic recognition would satisfy you. Let me throw a scenario at you, say a political party in Turkey were elected in the next few years and came out and said we recognize the AG but they had no mandate to make such a declaration (i.e. they kept this a secret until they won office). If it’s not really coming from the average citizen, wouldn't this fall short of your expectations?

[imported_ferdi]

Turkey will have losses and big losses but I doubt they’ll give back half of the land they own now. ....


Again, I can’t agree with this and the Turk’s know this isn’t true or else why do you think their hiding away so much? Also, there is fear, especially now as Europe won’t forgive them for what they’ve done unless they accept what happened and when that happens, the world will look at Turkey in different ways and force them to face many of their other wrong doings. It’s not only the Genocide. Come on, Steph, you know this better then me.


.... Turkey is in a trap right now, one wrong action spells loss and great losses too, mentally and physically. People won’t look at Turkey the way they did.

Saco, what big losses? Please elaborate, I'm not really convinced. As I've stated before, I don't believe there is single serious country that holds Turkey legally culpable. Let me know if I'm mistaken. Recognition and acknowledgement is morally the right thing to do but I doubt this going to translate into material or political benefits (or in your words, losess - mentally and physically). I also don't think it will be mean much for Armenian security if recognition is symbolic and only at the political level.

Turks have mistakenly turned this issue into a question of national honor. That's why there is so much resistance and the reason why they get worked up about it, not for fear of big losses or because "Europe won’t forgive them". The shine of EU membership has pretty much dissipated in this country. Don't expect anyone to make any sudden gestures as a result of the EU.

[Steph]

[QUOTE=ferdi;30668]

Steph, you're a provocateur but a witty one nonetheless. Since I'm not in the habit of throwing stones at every bark dog, let's move on from all this "bark bark yap yap" ..... my furry little friend :-)

Very rich from someone suggesting a memorial to turks in Armenia.

. I’m just a little surprised that making a symbolic recognition would satisfy you. Let me throw a scenario at you, say a political party in Turkey were elected in the next few years and came out and said we recognize the AG but they had no mandate to make such a declaration (i.e. they kept this a secret until they won office). If it’s not really coming from the average citizen, wouldn't this fall short of your expectations?

What actions would this hypothetical party/government make towards restitution, recompense or a word I dislike - compensation?
None in all probability, so the recognition would be symbolic, as are the majority of statements made by politicians. To change the mindset of the turkish people it would need a reversal of 80plus years of indoctrination, lies and damned lies, real education about the real world and real world history.
The EU has recognised the AG, that doesn't mean that individual member states must, therefore it's a symbolic declaration.

[Sako]

Saco, what big losses? Please elaborate, I'm not really convinced. As I've stated before, I don't believe there is single serious country that holds Turkey legally culpable.

I think the only country that doesn't hold Turkey culpable is Turkey. Ferdi, why are you forgetting what's going on today, NOT politically? Why do you close your eyes? Or do you not know? I can say this all again but I doubt it will help. The problem is you look at everything politically. Turkey hasn't been acting purely political for decades to allow you to do that, it's politics have always been strange and un-understandable. Emotions have been mixed with politics a lot, the Genocide for example, it wasn't purely political.

Let me know if I'm mistaken. Recognition and acknowledgement is morally the right thing to do but I doubt this going to translate into material or political benefits (or in your words, losess - mentally and physically). I also don't think it will be mean much for Armenian security if recognition is symbolic and only at the political level.

First off, symbolic recognition is something I like to call useless and it will never happen, throw that out of your mind. If the Turks in general take the time to recognize the Genocide EVEN symbolically, that will mean a lot. I think that's what Steph meant and that's what Turkey DOESN'T want. If the Turkish paliament does this it will be a completely different story. Why do you think their not doing it? One wrong move means war, don't underistimate what I'm saying, and that would be a VERY wrong move. Not even a century has passed, the Genocide is fresh and Turkey symbolically accepts the Genocide happened. That's like saying you will enter the ocean but symbolically get wet and come out. You don't know what Turks do while you sleep in your bed. I'm not saying the entire country is doing this but a few Turks could hype up a problem and one final war which the real Turks want since 1923 could take place. You don't appreciate the gravity of the situation.

Second of all, to answer your first question, yes, accepting the Genocide happened translates to losing billions and billions of not lira but dollars. And I'll give you a few reasons why. You know how many big-time Armenian factories, companies, establishments, etc. existed in Turkey? Now, do you know that their bank accounts are still active? ALL THOSE BANK ACCOUNTS? Well, they'll all have to be returned and they should be, they be long to us, do you say otherwise? That's one. Two, do you know what happens sometimes in these kinds of cases? The country responsible has to begin renovating a lot that has been destroyed so look at Ani, look at SO MANY Armenian structures, Turkey will be responsible for all that. A part of it at least but it will be another problem all the same for Turkey, even if a small problem and if the Turks aren't responsible (which they aren't) then all that will have to be returned. This is a secondary problem though and may or may not play a big role. Three, Turkey will have to pay (almost issurance) to so many of the surviving families that have stayed alive till today. Turkey will have to provide funds to them. Four, free speech will have to automatically be allowed in Turkey, that's a major mental and physical change for Turks, Armenians, and everyone else connected to Turkey. Five, the Mt. Ararat issue will be coming next and at high speeds, faster then Turkey can think. Six, many other attrocities that Turkey may want to hide or is already hiding will be coming to the surface automatically and the WORLD will force Turkey to accept it all. Why do you think Germany and Turkey resemble each other so much? Their almost in the same condition right now. Seven, many Armenians in Turkey will have to be insured, many companies may be given back to Armenians to whom they belonged in the past, Armenians from Armenia will be able to enter Turkey without many problems (that means scaling Mt. Ararat as well), and the Turks will mentally have a different understanding of Armenians. Eight, like it or not, anyone will be able to talk, conduct discussions, and make films or movies about the Genocide, massive blow. Nine, Armenians will be able to get their monuments, structures, etc. under their control (that's a lot of territory). Ten, like it or not, the Armenian borders will be getting a bit larger, maybe not a lot but definitely to some extent. Finally, all the people killed by Turkey before or after the Genocide will be recognized, parks will be built in honor of the Genocide, those families (Hrant Dinks family, for example) will be getting a check if nothing else and many families will be getting payed for more then one generation even, many Turkish laws may/will even change (Like freedom of speech, mentioned already), and Armenians will be able to enter the archives and bring it all back to Armenia (maybe not all of it).

Simply put you don't realise what's going on and reading will only help you to some extent. I'm giving you the problems Turkey will face, like it or not. ONE GENOCIDE, one issue, leads to more problems then the Armenians had in 1915. Also remember that many countries have grudges against Turkey who was so bold as to send threats to presidents and many other people, can you imagine that? That's just sad. That's not even half of their problems though. Even if a couple of the problems I mentioned don't come up, Turkey still will have MANY losses, losses not even connected to the Genocide even or Armenia. Everyone talks mostly about land when Turkey would rather give land then lose so much more. You can believe this or you can say I don't know what I'm talking about, I don't really care, but know that this is why Turkey doesn't say anything. You live in Turkey, I live in a free country, who do you think sees what's going on? I stand outside the field, I see what's going on, I read what's going on, I hear what's going on, and I see what's going on. Now I'm telling you what's going on which isn't even half of Turkey's problems. *Sigh* Turkey's in a nightmare and it won't be over even after recognizing the Genocide, that's when everything will begin. I don't know what to feel, I'm serious. I don't HATE anyone except those who deserve it and play cat and mouse. Turkey just doesn't realise that by hiding away, their in for more problems rather then less.

In the end, whether Turkey accepts the Genocide or not, that doesn't mean individual Turks have to hide away as well. That's THEIR problem not the governments problem. Those that can't talk freely or don't know, they are completely out of blame's way but those that come up in forums and begin battling Armenians saying the Genocide NEVER happened whatsoever, those are the people that ruin the rest of the apples in the basket. That's who we have to be dealing with, not each other, that's what we're forgetting. Many Turks get a first hand understanding of the Genocide from Turks, that's why they get confused when they face us. Having the power or ability to talk freely with each other is very grand, don't underestimate that, and when we can't, the wrong people use that as an advantage.

WE HAVE TO GET TOGETHER AS ONE, NOT AS INDIVIDUALS. We aren't Americans, we aren't Mexicans, we aren't Spanish, we aren't Portuguese, we aren't Russians, we aren't Indians, we aren't Swiss, we aren't Africans, we aren't Azeris, we aren't Georgians, we aren't Turks, we aren't Armenians, WE AREN'T ENEMIES.

We are the future .......................... and at the rate we're going, we may not even have a future. Understand this if you didn't understand anything else (I'm not talking about personally you Ferdi).

This is what I'm working my ass off for and I'm sure as hell we're going to get their sooner or later as a whole rather then as individuals. This is the strongest weapon Turkey won't be able to handle, that's why they are so afraid. That's why they don't allow freedom of speech, or anything else. Look at how we're understanding each other more or less (it doesn't matter), we weren't destined enemies or something, that's what our governments indirectly lead us to be, sometimes even directly. This is the trap and we're all falling in to it. Don't fall for it, there is always hope and giving up on that means giving up on EVERYTHING else. A future, a strong world, countries, etc., and most importantly ourselves and each other.

Turkey is already losing a lot that I won't dwell into right now and the Turks don't won't to lose their own people which they are already because they hurt their own kinsmen so what to speak of not hurting the Armenians.

So, final words? Turkey will lose a lot and it is afraid of that if nothing else and Armenia has many allies unlike before in 1915. The world has changed and Turkey has faced that decision in it's heart and mind before anyone else, knowing what lies ahead better then you Ferdi or anyone else. They are afraid and they know no one is going to make them feel better because of what they did and still do. That's why they feel alone and gether up their forces.

Three words: All the best.

Turks have mistakenly turned this issue into a question of national honor. That's why there is so much resistance and the reason why they get worked up about it, not for fear of big losses or because "Europe won’t forgive them". The shine of EU membership has pretty much dissipated in this country. Don't expect anyone to make any sudden gestures as a result of the EU.

Maybe, maybe not, but I wasn't saying that they would accept the Genocide for EU. That's just one more reason why they will have to. Turkey can't stand alone forever. But whatever, I'm not going to dwell into this particular issue without completely understanding it. And Steph, bro, seriously, don't doubt what I said. The fact that Turkey is so mixed up and has been lying so much is what will lead them to face all this. If they wouldn't do all this, they might actually have less problems today but they still do it. I know it seems impossible but don't uderestimate what's going on right now in Armenia and Turkey, there is a lot you don't know and a lot that I'm telling.

[imported_ferdi]

Second of all, to answer your first question, yes, accepting the Genocide happened translates to losing billions and billions of not lira but dollars. And I'll give you a few reasons why. You know how many big-time Armenian factories, companies, establishments, etc. existed in Turkey? Now, do you know that their bank accounts are still active? ALL THOSE BANK ACCOUNTS? Well, they'll all have to be returned and they should be, they be long to us, do you say otherwise? That's one. Two, do you know what happens sometimes in these kinds of cases? The country responsible has to begin renovating a lot that has been destroyed so look at Ani, look at SO MANY Armenian structures, Turkey will be responsible for all that. A part of it at least but it will be another problem all the same for Turkey, even if a small problem and if the Turks aren't responsible (which they aren't) then all that will have to be returned. This is a secondary problem though and may or may not play a big role. Three, Turkey will have to pay (almost issurance) to so many of the surviving families that have stayed alive till today. Turkey will have to provide funds to them. Four, free speech will have to automatically be allowed in Turkey, that's a major mental and physical change for Turks, Armenians, and everyone else connected to Turkey. Five, the Mt. Ararat issue will be coming next and at high speeds, faster then Turkey can think. Six, many other attrocities that Turkey may want to hide or is already hiding will be coming to the surface automatically and the WORLD will force Turkey to accept it all. Why do you think Germany and Turkey resemble each other so much? Their almost in the same condition right now. Seven, many Armenians in Turkey will have to be insured, many companies may be given back to Armenians to whom they belonged in the past, Armenians from Armenia will be able to enter Turkey without many problems (that means scaling Mt. Ararat as well), and the Turks will mentally have a different understanding of Armenians. Eight, like it or not, anyone will be able to talk, conduct discussions, and make films or movies about the Genocide, massive blow. Nine, Armenians will be able to get their monuments, structures, etc. under their control (that's a lot of territory). Ten, like it or not, the Armenian borders will be getting a bit larger, maybe not a lot but definitely to some extent. Finally, all the people killed by Turkey before or after the Genocide will be recognized, parks will be built in honor of the Genocide, those families (Hrant Dinks family, for example) will be getting a check if nothing else and many families will be getting payed for more then one generation even, many Turkish laws may/will even change (Like freedom of speech, mentioned already), and Armenians will be able to enter the archives and bring it all back to Armenia (maybe not all of it).

Saco, that’s ridiculous. Your suggestions sound more like a Christmas wish list for Santa Clause than reality. You seriously cannot expect the the Turkish taxpayer to cough up billions of dollars and accept a ‘greater Armenia’ by ceding territory, monuments, structures, archives etc for the sake of satisfying your perceived view of making this right. Most of what you said will end up being an obstacle and impediment to recognition and reconciliation, guaranteed. I think you need to align yourself more to Steph’s thinking. Yes you have the right to demand recognition but forget about all the other things. Some positive gestures and concessions may be possible but these will always be conditional upon the goodwill of the Turkish people...never forget that regardless of how painful that is to hear. It could never be forced upon them by a external party.

Reading your post quite frankly leads me to believe that Armenians themselves are unwittingly feeding this denial process. Is it any wonder that with such a divergence of views within the Armenian community about demands for compensation, territory, apology or no we just want recognition only, that a lot of Turks play cat and mouse or just close up shop and ignore the whole thing.

Forget about living in a free country, I think your living in fantasy land. Perhaps it’s just the exuberance of your youth, I don’t know.

[Joseph]

I would like to take this opportunity to remind everyone to remain civil. Eti, Ferdi, lal, hittite, etc are not genocide deniers and I admire their courage for posting here. They've taken plenty of abuse and have more often than not remained civil themselves.

We may not agree with them on some issues but I can appreciate their candor when they write about perceptions from the Turkish side and I also agree with them that many of the Armenian demands, justified or not, are very improbable and further complicate recognition of the historical reality of the Armenian Genocide.

Thank you.