Parallel Roads

[ardakilic]

Quite right my old chap, let’s see, hmmmm

how do the Turks in general feel about the restriction on female students wearing headscarf while attending Universities just so that the state can look secular.

Nice question and i felt very happy to answer this.

Majority of Turkish population see this practice unacceptable except a minor Kemalist population.

[lal]

Nice question and i felt very happy to answer this.

Majority of Turkish population see this practice unacceptable except a minor Kemalist population.

ı will make no comment on this.




Men have authority over women. (Koran 2:228)

In the home:

"Men have authority over women because Allah has made the one superior to the others, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them." (Koran 4:34)
"Mothers shall suckle their children two years completely, for such as desire to fulfill the suckling....But if the couple desire by mutual consent and consultation to wean, then it is no fault in them." (Koran 2:233)
Women who disobey their husband will go to hell. (Koran 66:10).
"Thou mayest decline for the present whom thou wilt of them, and thou mayest take to thy bed her whom thou wilt, and whomsoever thou shalt long for of those thou shalt have before neglected; and this shall not be a crime in thee. Thus will it be easier to give them the desire of their eyes... and to satisfy them with what thou shalt accord to each of them." (Koran 33:51)
In society:

Women do not have equal right to their inheritance (Koran 4:11-12) Women receive half of the male share for an equivalent degree of kinship.[24]
Women who disobey should be beaten:

"Good women are obedient.... As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them. Then if they obey you, take no further action against them." (Koran 4:34)


Muhammad, who himself had 11 wives[19], allowed marriage of up to four wives. (Koran 33:51)

"Of women who seem good in your eyes, marry but two, or three, or four; and if ye still fear ye shall not act equitably, then one only."
Islam also allows sexual intercourse with one's slave maids and as many 'captive' women as one desires (Koran 4:3) - even if those women are married.


ı only wonder if ALLAH is a male or what?

lal

[ardakilic]

ı will make no comment on this.




Men have authority over women. (Koran 2:228)

In the home:

"Men have authority over women because Allah has made the one superior to the others, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them." (Koran 4:34)
"Mothers shall suckle their children two years completely, for such as desire to fulfill the suckling....But if the couple desire by mutual consent and consultation to wean, then it is no fault in them." (Koran 2:233)
Women who disobey their husband will go to hell. (Koran 66:10).
"Thou mayest decline for the present whom thou wilt of them, and thou mayest take to thy bed her whom thou wilt, and whomsoever thou shalt long for of those thou shalt have before neglected; and this shall not be a crime in thee. Thus will it be easier to give them the desire of their eyes... and to satisfy them with what thou shalt accord to each of them." (Koran 33:51)
In society:

Women do not have equal right to their inheritance (Koran 4:11-12) Women receive half of the male share for an equivalent degree of kinship.[24]
Women who disobey should be beaten:

"Good women are obedient.... As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them. Then if they obey you, take no further action against them." (Koran 4:34)


Muhammad, who himself had 11 wives[19], allowed marriage of up to four wives. (Koran 33:51)

"Of women who seem good in your eyes, marry but two, or three, or four; and if ye still fear ye shall not act equitably, then one only."
Islam also allows sexual intercourse with one's slave maids and as many 'captive' women as one desires (Koran 4:3) - even if those women are married.


ı only wonder if ALLAH is a male or what?

lal

Come on lal, those are completely different things. This is compeletely Kemalist abusrdism.

You can critisize Islam (and i think you and me and everybody should), you can tell people why they must not disobey Islamic rules. But once a person chooses it, it becomes a different issue; a civil and democratic right.

[lal]

Come on lal, those are completely different things. This is compeletely Kemalist abusrdism.

You can critisize Islam (and i think you and me and everybody should), you can tell people why they must not disobey Islamic rules. But once a person chooses it, it becomes a different issue; a civil and democratic right.

what ı wrote above is what it is written in kuran,those are not kemalist propaganda.

ı think people dont read kuran. please read it. than you may not accept it as democratic human rights.

untill ı read it, ı was a believer. after ı read it,ı lost all the magic.now ı think it is a very dangerous ideology.

but,in many ways, for males ,it may be okay.

[ardakilic]

what ı wrote above is what it is written in kuran,those are not kemalist propaganda.

ı think people dont read kuran. please read it. than you may not accept it as democratic human rights.

untill ı read it, ı was a believer. after ı read it,ı lost all the magic.now ı think it is a very dangerous ideology.

but,in many ways, for males ,it may be okay.

Don't worry i have read it, both in Turkish and Arabic. I think i am competent enough to make translation of Koran from Arabic to Turkish. Anyway, that's not the subject.

What i mean is people can believe 'dangerous' things and can follow orders of 'dangerous' religions unless they donot violate others' rights. You can find similar "inhumane"* verses in Torah or Bible but this doesnot give us right to ban Jewish or Christian practices. This remains a philosophical issue unless Muslim people force others to wear headscarf. In that case it becomes a democracy case.

* By using inhumane adjective, i just mean, the verses can be interpreted as in inhumane way.

[lal]

Don't worry i have read it, both in Turkish and Arabic. I think i am competent enough to make translation of Koran from Arabic to Turkish. Anyway, that's not the subject.

What i mean is people can believe 'dangerous' things and can follow orders of 'dangerous' religions unless they donot violate others' rights. You can find similar "inhumane"* verses in Torah or Bible but this doesnot give us right to ban Jewish or Christian practices. This remains a philosophical issue unless Muslim people force others to wear headscarf. In that case it becomes a democracy case.

* By using inhumane adjective, i just mean, the verses can be interpreted as in inhumane way.

can the versus be interpreted as humane way?

ı dont care if some girls limit their lifes by using head covers not to seduce men.

but ı do think that there is more than head cover in islam. christianity and judaizm are all very very dangerous abrahamic cults that threatens humanity.you know mr bush is a very good christian. just see how beautiful is religon. ı propose everybody budizm if they need to follow some sprituality. much more superior and mystical.

religons are drugs used by our masters, not to let us think indipendently and to suck our blood easier. religon seperates us sharply.

if you are poor, just stay poor and think you will be rich in the next life and dont fight for your rights in this life.

ım not so sure how can religons so deeply invaded our brains can be eliminated, so ı dont know how can they be forbidden either.

imagine of yourself as an atheist, young woman,real leftist--not kemalist fashist-- in turkey? how easy it is* isnt it? you want to be independent,work and earn your money here?

isnt this all by itself enough to understand the armenians struggle?

[ardakilic]

can the versus be interpreted as humane way?

ı dont care if some girls limit their lifes by using head covers not to seduce men.

but ı do think that there is more than head cover in islam. christianity and judaizm are all very very dangerous abrahamic cults that threatens humanity.you know mr bush is a very good christian. just see how beautiful is religon. ı propose everybody budizm if they need to follow some sprituality. much more superior and mystical.

religons are drugs used by our masters, not to let us think indipendently and to suck our blood easier. religon seperates us sharply.

if you are poor, just stay poor and think you will be rich in the next life and dont fight for your rights in this life.

ım not so sure how can religons so deeply invaded our brains can be eliminated, so ı dont know how can they be forbidden either.

imagine of yourself as an atheist, young woman,real leftist--not kemalist fashist-- in turkey? how easy it is* isnt it? you want to be independent,work and earn your money here?

isnt this all by itself enough to understand the armenians struggle?

I can agree all the things you typed about religion but let us keep in mind that this is only one face.

But again lal, all you mentioned is philosophical issue. You can be a militant radical atheist, you can defend this position and try to persuade people how atheism is useful for our development. I can understand your hate and your standing points resulting this hate. Mostly you can be righteous.

However, on behalf of atheism or whatever, you cannot forbid people enroll university because of their clothes.

[Sako]

Men have authority over women. (Koran 2:228)

In the home:

"Men have authority over women because Allah has made the one superior to the others, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them." (Koran 4:34)
"Mothers shall suckle their children two years completely, for such as desire to fulfill the suckling....But if the couple desire by mutual consent and consultation to wean, then it is no fault in them." (Koran 2:233)
Women who disobey their husband will go to hell. (Koran 66:10).
"Thou mayest decline for the present whom thou wilt of them, and thou mayest take to thy bed her whom thou wilt, and whomsoever thou shalt long for of those thou shalt have before neglected; and this shall not be a crime in thee. Thus will it be easier to give them the desire of their eyes... and to satisfy them with what thou shalt accord to each of them." (Koran 33:51)
In society:
Women do not have equal right to their inheritance (Koran 4:11-12) Women receive half of the male share for an equivalent degree of kinship.[24]
Women who disobey should be beaten:
"Good women are obedient.... As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them. Then if they obey you, take no further action against them." (Koran 4:34)
Muhammad, who himself had 11 wives[19], allowed marriage of up to four wives. (Koran 33:51)
"Of women who seem good in your eyes, marry but two, or three, or four; and if ye still fear ye shall not act equitably, then one only."
Islam also allows sexual intercourse with one's slave maids and as many 'captive' women as one desires (Koran 4:3) - even if those women are married.

ı only wonder if ALLAH is a male or what?

Lal I understand your feelings but don't take this up on religion. That's what Arda means to say. A lot has been changed in the Kuran and I can say almost the opposite of what you said. In the Muslim religion, this is only one example, there is indeed a law stating that men can marry many women BUT there is a drawback. Muhammad says that it is better to have one wife and treat her like a queen then have many wives and treat them simply as women. Can't remember the exact words but Muhammad says have as many wives as you like IF you can make a palace for each one of them. This basically means don't have many wives because it is very difficult to take care of even one wife so what to speak of having many wives. The Koran has been translated by many, many men which has altered a lot. In reality, the Koran and Muhammad states that Jesus Christ was the greatest prophet, a very, very spiritual and powerful man. Muhammad, like I said, was originally a Christian, he was a very powerful man. Muslims themselves have altered so much. Don't blame the religion, blame the followers who make every text in the Quran suitable for themselves and their actions. They search for sentences that will back their actions and make them look right.

Come on lal, those are completely different things. This is compeletely Kemalist abusrdism.

I wish that was true, Arda. Muslims around the world, many of them, have a lot of extremism flowing in their blood. They misunderstand a lot in the Koran.

but,in many ways, for males ,it may be okay.

YES, this is true. Men really feel up on top after becoming a Muslim. I have to agree here. There are still many verses in the Koran that boost the position of women in the Muslim community but for some reason, women are still degraded.

but ı do think that there is more than head cover in islam. christianity and judaizm are all very very dangerous abrahamic cults that threatens humanity.you know mr bush is a very good christian. just see how beautiful is religon. ı propose everybody budizm if they need to follow some sprituality. much more superior and mystical.

Woaaa, Lal, hold your horses, now your hitting another nail. Many people have made Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, etc. look bad but that doesn't mean the religion was wrong or mistaken. Christianity teaches peace every step of the way but people don't follow a lot of what they read most of the time. That's not Christ's fault. By the way, are you a Bhudist yourself?

can the versus be interpreted as humane way?

I ask this as well. Can ALL the verses be interpreted correctly or in a good way?

Anyways, guys, let's stay on topic please. We're wanderning off again. And by the way Lal, you seem to be ignoring me lately. If you don't want me to reply please, don't hesitate, just tell me. This is the fourth post already.

[ardakilic]

OK, my question not only to Arda but to Turkey itself (so all Turkish members can reply or someone that knows Turkey well). What is the greatest technical problem(s) (transport, etc.) in Turkey?

Nobody answered and duty remained on me.

I don't think a significant technical problem occurs. Of course there can happen something... but, hmmmm, it doesnt come my mind any.

One question Saco; is there any social manner in Armenia which we mustnot do? What can be seen as impoliteness? Which points sould we be careful about if we visit?

[Steph]

In the Muslim religion, this is only one example, there is indeed a law stating that men can marry many women BUT there is a drawback. Muhammad says that it is better to have one wife and treat her like a queen then have many wives and treat them simply as women. Can't remember the exact words but Muhammad says have as many wives as you like IF you can make a palace for each one of them. This basically means don't have many wives because it is very difficult to take care of even one wife so what to speak of having many wives.

I thought the number of wives per man would be dictated by the number of mothers-in-law, one is fine by me!

Woaaa, Lal, hold your horses, now your hitting another nail. Many people have made Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, etc. look bad but that doesn't mean the religion was wrong or mistaken. Christianity teaches peace every step of the way but people don't follow a lot of what they read most of the time. That's not Christ's fault.

Islam, Judaism and Christianity all stem from the same source and perhaps that explains the emnity between them over the centuries.

Probably the biggest cause of problems with Islam is the absence of a central control, Christian churches have Catholicos, Popes etc. and councils which set "the rules" . No such central structure exists in Islam, individual imams can preach their own version of the Qoran as they see fit.

As regards the Holy Books being peaceful, the Old Testament is probably one of the most blood-thirsty books I've read. "Smite this, smote that, first-born killlings, cities turned to salt,etc." The God of the Old Testament seems to be a different deity in the New Testament.