Parallel Roads

[Joseph]

because ım not trying to be rightful about the conflict. ı only try to think pragmatic.if turkey opens the borders with armenia , azerbeycan will punish economicly turkey. and they are more important economicly than armenia . ı wish these borders were never closed in the first place, than we wouldnt have such a difficult problem.it was a very stupid decision.

second turkish nationalist obviously use this against armenians.

and ı dont say give karabağ to azerbeycan. for example azeris can turn back to karabağ and it can be a independent country. or maybe armenia can give some empty mountains to azeris . ı dont know.

ı want peace,not because ı love azeris but because ı know that this is a great obstacle.

There probably will have to be some compromise to ultimately solve the conflict; the Armenians offered to give back the areas outside of Artsakh in exchange for freedom and the Azeris rejected this. We are at an impasse.

[VaheTheGreat(e)]

because ım not trying to be rightful about the conflict. ı only try to think pragmatic.if turkey opens the borders with armenia , azerbeycan will punish economicly turkey. and they are more important economicly than armenia . ı wish these borders were never closed in the first place, than we wouldnt have such a difficult problem.it was a very stupid decision.

second turkish nationalist obviously use this against armenians.

and ı dont say give karabağ to azerbeycan. for example azeris can turn back to karabağ and it can be a independent country. or maybe armenia can give some empty mountains to azeris . ı dont know.

ı want peace,not because ı love azeris but because ı know that this is a great obstacle.

Poor turkey will be "punished economically" by "great Azerbajan"....don’t make me laugh... What happen to your "Great country"?
I am not sure that azebajan is more economically important than Armenia all depends of political conjuncture...
What you call "empty mountains" is a land covered with blood of Armenian soldiers, there is a spot covered with my blood too.... and it does not belong to azeris and never will...

[Joseph]

Poor turkey will be "punished economically" by "great Azerbajan"....don’t make me laugh... What happen to your "Great country"?
I am not sure that azebajan is more economically important than Armenia all depends of political conjuncture...
What you call "empty mountains" is a land covered with blood of Armenian soldiers, there is a spot covered with my blood too.... and it does not belong to azeris and never will...

lal has admitted that she has much to learn regarding the conflict. Cut her some slack. Maybe if instead of being hotheaded you could explain or views regarding Artsakh concisely. She is here to learn not be preached to. Even though we may disagree with her on some issues, this forum is about the Genocide and I can tell you that lal is not a genocide denier.

[imported_crusader1492]

lal has admitted that she has much to learn regarding the conflict. Cut her some slack. Maybe if instead of being hotheaded you could explain or views regarding Artsakh concisely. She is here to learn not be preached to. Even though we may disagree with her on some issues, this forum is about the Genocide and I can tell you that lal is not a genocide denier.

Well, I can see Vahe's frustration...

On one hand lal writes for peace sake, "give an empty mountain back to Azerbaijan". On the other hand, if Vahe said for peace sake, 'give Armenia Mt Ararat (that's an empty mountain too), lal would rip into him.

No one doubts that lal affirms the Genocide and that she has good intentions, but her lack of consistancy, coupled with her historical ignorance (especially concerning Artsakh), make her lose credibility.

[imported_crusader1492]

Poor turkey will be "punished economically" by "great Azerbajan"....don’t make me laugh... What happen to your "Great country"?
I am not sure that azebajan is more economically important than Armenia all depends of political conjuncture...
What you call "empty mountains" is a land covered with blood of Armenian soldiers, there is a spot covered with my blood too.... and it does not belong to azeris and never will...

I humbly say 'Thank you VaheTheGreat'.

[Joseph]

Vahe has a temporary ban. Sometimes its not what you say, but how you say it. We need to be civil here and if we disagree, still be courteous throughout. The personal attacks have to end. I do my part by keeping denialists out.

[Edoman]

Turkey does have vital interests in Azerbaijan and they would prefer not to allow any disruptions that could be disastrous to the Turkish economy. This is of course not to mention that Turkey will always be 100% behind the interest and desires of their Azeri blood cousins in any conflict but regardless, Geo-politically I can understand that Turkey has little choice other than to support Azerbaijan for its own interests.

However the conflict between Armenia and Azerbaijan has nothing to do with the Armenian issue in Turkey but if this government wants to continue to use this conflict as an obstacle in achieving any progress then that is their own prerogative and they are dreaming if they expect Armenia to cut its own throat just to give them a warm fuzzy feeling.

Vahe is right; we have spilled much blood protecting our people. Our Fedayee’s sacrifices will never go in vain.
All it takes for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing.

The truth is that Turkey needs grow up as a nation and needs to prove itself that it is ready to accept the reality and its shameful past; as long as that step is not taken we don’t expect anything meaningful coming out of Turkey. What we do expect to see is that Turks will continue to stop the AG bill from passing in US by any means possible, continue its current policies against its citizens who do not possess an “Turkish Identity” and spit out its vile/distasteful conduct around the world. That much we can expect from Turkey.

[hitite]

What we do expect to see is that Turks will continue to stop the AG bill from passing in US by any means possible

Passing the AG bill in the US is pure politics and has nothing to do with your sorrow or Turkish people accepting the genocide. We all should freaking know that by now. What is happeneing in Turkey now has nothing to do with recognition efforts and is completely about the Turkish people themselves. Its about a Turks being able to appologise even if he does not know crap about the AG. Recognition efforts can only slow this process down and pull this whole "humane" issue back into the cess pit of politics. The solution is with the people and not with any government.

If I were are an ergenekon, deep state, grey wolf or however you describe the kind of Turk you guys hate, I would never want the AG recognition efforts to stop because it would just make me and my organisation stronger.

[Sako]

win win solution. nobody looses.

One last try to get our minister to see what I’m saying. If we wait, Lal, the Turks will have a better chance of never accepting the Genocide and I can tell you why too, I’m not just blabbering on. Finally, Turkey isn’t the country that will slowly move on (if only that were true). We have to work our asses to get ANYTHING done. Sometimes, we have to pull the words out of the mouths of Turks so what are you offering, for us to wait? If you don’t know the current situation in Turkish-Armenian relations how can you be a minister? Now I realize how the punk nationalists work. They do what they do through the people that have good hearts, who actually try to get something done although they might not have sufficient knowledge. Wake up, Lal, this petition it seems didn’t teach you yet who you’re living amongst. Don’t be so soft hearted, those bastards will cut it out like they PHYSICALLY and mentally cut out the hearts of Armenians, just like they cut the wombs of Armenian mothers to see whether their unborn children were boys or girls. Open your eyes.

1. Armenians should be able to travel freely to Turkey to visit ancient sites, churches, ruins, etc. Said sites should be correctly labeled as "Armenian" if indeed that is what they are and not "Byzantine". It seems that official Turkey views almost any mention of Armenians as lending weight to Armenian land claims. They need to lose the paranoia. Armenians have 4,000 year history in those lands so we still feel a connection today. The bottomline is that no one, not the UN, US, EU, Armenia etc is going to force Turkey to relinquish territory to Armenia. Armenia has acknowledged as much.

Yes but Joseph you forget that if we start to live in Turkey, those lands will begin to feel and seem to belong more to Armenians then to Turks. Soon, as we begin to live there, those lands have an 80% chance of becoming ours once again, under our control. Are you guys kidding me? The Turks know all this better then us and that’s why they are so afraid. Now that we look at it, simply allowing Armenians back into Turkey is a MASSIVE loss as it is.

For me, this is not about land or money. I agree that when some Armenians makes these demands it further alienates Turkey. At the same time, the land of our ancestors is gone from us; where our church, language, culture was founded and 4,000 years of roots ripped out of the ground. It would be nice for the facade to be eliminated and for Turkey/Turks to realize this.

You know what I don’t sometimes understand, why all the solutions are simply related to relations and Turkey starting to understand what’s happened. This isn’t a moral war where we need to teach the Turks how to live and even worse, at the expense of our country, our feelings, our ancestors. The past is gone Joseph, your right, but I’m not. I’m not asking for land and all, that’s farfetched, truly, but there is LOT’S that CAN be returned, SHOULD be returned, and WILL be returned. Mark my words. WHY shouldn’t we take it all back? That would be true recognition. I don’t give a hoot what anyone feels like. If a person who accepts the Genocide feels bad that Armenia gets what it deserves then they aren’t recognizers and I don’t care what they believe in, not one bit. Sorry if this seems rude but this it is the truth. If it isn’t, define recognition, I’m saying this to everyone. I’m not going to be sentimental; the real Turks out there that are ruining everything don’t deserve my sympathy. And those that KNOW the Genocide happened but still deny it will love to be in hell then in my hands or the clutches of my country. Those that want to move on or even try once to do so will be shown unlimited help, respect, and care but those that don’t are on their own. We have tried LOT’S of things and we will continue to do so but my country will not suffer to help Turkey. It will be the other way around. Turks everywhere will have to work their asses (along with us) to get this issue settled, there will be NO HIGHWAY OPTION. My country deserves attention after not getting any for almost a century and I will stand straight with my head high because me, my country, and my people deserve to do so. I will not kneel because if I do so, my country will also kneel. Being moral, sympathetic, etc. is great and right but being simply stupid is something else. We aren’t dealing with Tibet here, we’re dealing with Turkey.

ım sure it would be very easy for great armenia to invade little turkey,just like you did in azerbeycan. actually maybe you can simply walk inside.but you must know that you dont get armenian lands back in a istanbul fish restaurants with turkish ladies. dont expect me or ı bet 90% of the signers together with you in this mission. No dinner with you.

What’s that supposed to mean, your blaming the Armenians, Lal? Man I have to learn Turkish to understand this girl properly.

because ım not trying to be rightful about the conflict. ı only try to think pragmatic.if turkey opens the borders with armenia , azerbeycan will punish economicly turkey. and they are more important economicly than armenia . ı wish these borders were never closed in the first place, than we wouldnt have such a difficult problem.it was a very stupid decision.

So you think economically first before thinking about Armenia at all. This was what I was trying to say all this time. Thanks Lal, I get your point now, sagol.

ı want peace,not because ı love azeris but because ı know that this is a great obstacle.

Obstacles are broken with force, with strife, with sweat, not morals, Lal. I’m not a war general; I’m a practical person not underestimating what I see.

On one hand lal writes for peace sake, "give an empty mountain back to Azerbaijan". On the other hand, if Vahe said for peace sake, 'give Armenia Mt Ararat (that's an empty mountain too), lal would rip into him.

No one doubts that lal affirms the Genocide and that she has good intentions, but her lack of consistancy, coupled with her historical ignorance (especially concerning Artsakh), make her lose credibility.

Nothing more to add but yeah, we should talk properly, I’ll try to as well, I might be going over the line a bit sometimes.

Its about a Turks being able to appologise even if he does not know crap about the AG.

Not gonna happen, sorry. Knowledge is the only savior right now. Many don’t know what to believe and no one is going to blindly accept everything. Nice dream though. Many Turks talk without remembering where they live or what’s going on. Open your eyes and then provide excellent views, not the other way around.

[Steph]

You know what I don’t sometimes understand, why all the solutions are simply related to relations and Turkey starting to understand what’s happened. This isn’t a moral war where we need to teach the Turks how to live and even worse, at the expense of our country, our feelings, our ancestors. The past is gone Joseph, your right, but I’m not. I’m not asking for land and all, that’s farfetched, truly, but there is LOT’S that CAN be returned, SHOULD be returned, and WILL be returned. Mark my words. WHY shouldn’t we take it all back? That would be true recognition. I don’t give a hoot what anyone feels like. If a person who accepts the Genocide feels bad that Armenia gets what it deserves then they aren’t recognizers and I don’t care what they believe in, not one bit. Sorry if this seems rude but this it is the truth. If it isn’t, define recognition, I’m saying this to everyone. I’m not going to be sentimental; the real Turks out there that are ruining everything don’t deserve my sympathy. And those that KNOW the Genocide happened but still deny it will love to be in hell then in my hands or the clutches of my country. Those that want to move on or even try once to do so will be shown unlimited help, respect, and care but those that don’t are on their own. We have tried LOT’S of things and we will continue to do so but my country will not suffer to help Turkey. It will be the other way around. Turks everywhere will have to work their asses (along with us) to get this issue settled, there will be NO HIGHWAY OPTION. My country deserves attention after not getting any for almost a century and I will stand straight with my head high because me, my country, and my people deserve to do so. I will not kneel because if I do so, my country will also kneel. Being moral, sympathetic, etc. is great and right but being simply stupid is something else. We aren’t dealing with Tibet here, we’re dealing with Turkey.

Saco, can you redefine what you're saying here?