Parallel Roads

[ardakilic]

okay thank you all for your patience towards me for so long.
after so long posts ,ı came to the point that, turks and armenians may not be able to solve the problems politically. instead, we,people must move towards each other . for example we can have armenian and turkish women civil organizations helping people who need help both in armenia and turkey. we can arrange armenian turist tours to eastern anatolia and let the press
show this on tvs. more and extensive cultural activities.things like this.

an armenian who doesnt demand the recognition of AG in the first place(ofcourse although he believes to that) and a turk who apologises for the AG must not be considered as traitors in their countries. we must move at least this much .

if we can somehow create better images of armenian and turk, it may be possible to solve the problem.

Peace messages are good to express wills, emotions and intentions but i think we need more than that to make something real.

[Sako]

okay thank you all for your patience towards me for so long.
after so long posts ,ı came to the point that, turks and armenians may not be able to solve the problems politically. instead, we,people must move towards each other . for example we can have armenian and turkish women civil organizations helping people who need help both in armenia and turkey. we can arrange armenian turist tours to eastern anatolia and let the press
show this on tvs. more and extensive cultural activities.things like this.

Thank you Lal for explaining your views and replying as well, lol, after my long post, it really was a bit long but I didn't find any other way to say what I meant. Sorry if it was a bit annoying.

Well, my reply to your views are as follows.

1. You say you want many things to happen but can you get them done? I am trying very hard to get a very hectic project finished here in Armenia for example. I don't just talk, I walk the talk. So, what are you doing? If you aren't doing anything, please don't stop us from trying to make a difference as well. Something is better then nothing.

an armenian who doesnt demand the recognition of AG in the first place(ofcourse although he believes to that) and a turk who apologises for the AG must not be considered as traitors in their countries. we must move at least this much.

2. Of course but if an Armenian doesn't care what will happen at all, he doesn't deserve to live because if he doesn't care, he/she will be ignoring all that his/her ancestors went through for HIM/HER. Further more, when you say Turks who accept the AG must not be considered traitors, that is what we are fighting for. You want everything to just "happen" out of nowhere. You have to tell us how as well. You show us the door without providing us with a key. What the hell do you think we are here for? We are all trying. Why do you think you are the only one worried?

if we can somehow create better images of armenian and turk, it may be possible to solve the problem.

3. We are trying our best Lal, you have no idea. But still, Turkey is going to have to lose something for this issue to get cleared up because we lost EVERYTHING. If you are against that, I don't want to talk to you again. My country will not fall at your knees. Turkey will have to be more understanding and more serious. This isn't a game. When I say things like this, I don't offend anyone, I just state what must be done. When we know our country suffers till today, how will we be able to happily become friends with Turks? I might, many others might, but everyone else won't. Your country took everything away Lal, EVERYTHING, do you understand? Your country will not prosper at my countries expense, at the expense of the blood of my people.

[hitite]

...because ı honestly show all characteristics of a typical turk

You do not. No hard feelings. Maybe you should read more about Ataturk because you "may" (I'm not sure) have an idolatary view of him which is not healthy. Your contradictions may also arise from the fact that Ataturk is being called a genocidal pig, child molester etc around here and you are not used to him being critisized at that level. You should maybe read some Murat Bardakçı and some other non-text book historians. You will see that he can still be a great man (if that is the conclusion you get to) but he was also human and made a lot of mistakes too. If the creation of the Turkish Republic was the right thing to do at those times Mustafa Kemal was the perfect person to do it. He was a military and tactical genius that even the raunchiest Armenian cant deny but the question of at what expense the republic was built is another issue. Try to see Ataturk as just another historical figure who happens to be one of the creators of this country as it is. As a historical figure we should be able to treat him as any other figure and know him for what he really is. The Armenians have their own controversial heros like General Dro (Drastamat Kanayan) and they too go to the same extents as Turks do when some, not all, deny that he was a rapist butcher. Dont think denial is purely a Turkish illness, Armenians do it too. Dont succumb to the illusion that you have endless freedom to talk about everything in the countries you see fit for yourself. I'm not trying to glorify Turkey, our country sucks big time in terms of some basic freedoms but believe me we are not the worst. I guess we all have our demons but I think we all forget to try and understand ourselves before we try to understand others.

[Steph]

ı was going to edit that part. but the post is already completely erased by the boss. ı shouldnt have written that. ı want to be considered like averybody else, not by my sex here.but is there any site where armenian women write? ı want to do something in real life, a peaceful friendly armenians and turks must get together and start a dialog. and this must be shown on tvs to have positive images. we need to move towards each other. somehow?

abdul

lal, why don't you just have a look at a preview of your posts before you submit them?
As regards dialogue, every time someone attempts dialogue with you, your reaction is to retreat back into the "loyal turk" position and this is a position that you have problems with. You have the intelligence to see that a lot, not all, that you have been told throughout your education is wrong, you can see a lot that is wrong with your state, but your default position is to take the official line. Very confusing for you and also for everyone here because we don't know you.
I like you and so do many, if not most, members here......try to help yourself by posting what you want and not what "a good turk" should post.

[ardakilic]

The Armenians have their own controversial heros like General Dro (Drastamat Kanayan) and they too go to the same extents as Turks do when some, not all, deny that he was a rapist butcher. Dont think denial is purely a Turkish illness, Armenians do it too.

A battalion (812th Armenian Battalion of Wehrmacht, later Armenian Legion) in Drastamat's leadership also served in Nazi Germany during WW II. He was nicknamed "Jewish hunter" by SS officers.

[Steph]

okay thank you all for your patience towards me for so long.

an armenian who doesnt demand the recognition of AG in the first place(ofcourse although he believes to that) and a turk who apologises for the AG must not be considered as traitors in their countries. we must move at least this much .

if we can somehow create better images of armenian and turk, it may be possible to solve the problem.

Here's a perfect example lal of the confusion in your posts. You have branded Ardakillic as a traitor and extremist for his views previously. Do you now believe that he isn't?
A good turk, in my opinion, is one who can see the faults in turkey and will work towards rectifying them. You've started by signing the apology, itself a big step. No-one wants you to deny your country, but perhaps help change your country.
You have hang-ups on attacks against ataturk, well, ataturk was never anywhere near being the World Statesman portrayed by turkey. Get over him.

[Sako]

Like I said before, I'll say it again, we all have problems. All countries do, no one is saying Armenia is the golden child, but right now, Turkey is completely to blame. After that, we'll be talking about Armenia. Life doesn't end with the recognition of the AG, lol, it rather begins. We haven't been living our lives peacefully in this past century, it's time to move on. This is what many don't understand. We all have to change, we all have to work hard for a better future, it's not just Turkey. It's not just you Lal that is going through a lot or your country. There are things I would love to change in my own country, factors I am disgusted of.

[ardakilic]

Here's a perfect example lal of the confusion in your posts. You have branded Ardakillic as a traitor and extremist for his views previously. Do you now believe that he isn't?

When i research Turkish political language/discourse through the history, i see this "traitor" discourse and exaggareting flattering words towards Kemal (like he is God, he creates everything, he is the prophet etc. and the flatterers were assigned deputies or similar duties) starts with late 1920s.

However, i have two simple questions:

- Modern democracy is a relatively new thought for mankind. But based on ancient human values, Kemal is a symbol one of the worst tyranny.

- If it is claimed that he was obliged to do what he did (i think he was not), why do you still see yourself obliged defending him? Now we can critisize him and his acts.

[lal]

lal, why don't you just have a look at a preview of your posts before you submit them?
As regards dialogue, every time someone attempts dialogue with you, your reaction is to retreat back into the "loyal turk" position and this is a position that you have problems with. You have the intelligence to see that a lot, not all, that you have been told throughout your education is wrong, you can see a lot that is wrong with your state, but your default position is to take the official line. Very confusing for you and also for everyone here because we don't know you.
I like you and so do many, if not most, members here......try to help yourself by posting what you want and not what "a good turk" should post.

If the creation of the Turkish Republic was the right thing to do at those times Mustafa Kemal was the perfect person to do it.



mr hitite wrote this. ı think these are the key words. we come to a choice between the foundation of turkish republic and armenian demands.

there ı get squeezed. it is difficult indeed.

lal

[ardakilic]

If the creation of the Turkish Republic was the right thing to do at those times Mustafa Kemal was the perfect person to do it.

It was not necessarily a single person. It wasnot a "creation" process, a "evolution" process in fact. And Kazim Karabekir and Rauf Orbay was more honest candidates for it.