Parallel Roads

[ardakilic]

dont talk about human rights in those years.

Yes, he commited crimes against humanity and organized and orderer a genocide: Dersim... What is the menaning of "Erase Dersim from the map!"?

Again and again and again: I dont critisize Kemal based on democratic thought. Modern democracy is relatively new for humanity. But we have ancient humanity values like justice, opposition against tyranny...

And all you said cannot refrain one from calling him bloody dictator.

[lal]

Yes, he commited crimes against humanity and organized and orderer a genocide: Dersim... What is the menaning of "Erase Dersim from the map!"?

Again and again and again: I dont critisize Kemal based on democratic thought. Modern democracy is relatively new for humanity. But we have ancient humanity values like justice, opposition against tyranny...

And all you said cannot refrain one from calling him bloody dictator.

ancient humanity values in the year 1920 ??? ı see.

so, please tell me, which leader was after ancient humanity values like justice opposing against tyranny in those years? name me one leader. churchill? muhammed? or who?

how about mr bush in the year 2008? and mr olmert??

[Steph]

pot black, kettle blacker

lal, you accuse arda of hating himself, your posts all carry one significant thread, your own self-loathing, many people here have tried to help you with this, but quite typically you spurn this help.
You worship at the altar of ataturk, how modern that makes you seem.
You link the need to consider human rights to turkey's current and vague wish to please the EU for possible entry. You claim there were no human rights in the 1920s, it follows that there would be no human rights in the decades before. That makes sense in your logic. No need to apologise, recognise the Genocide but because those days were different, no apology.
Your claim about the righteousness of ataturk, arda makes many links to his deeds, whose troops entered and destroyed Smyrna? Whose troops annihilated first the Armenians then the Greeks of Smyrna? ataturk may have not been physically there, but they were his troops.
Lastly, you revert to type with your insults and threats to a forum member, enough to get others banned. You call any anti-kemalist a traitor, if not a traitor then at least he must be a terrorist, you threaten to turn his face into a monkey, is this a type of ape?
To cap it all, because he has discourse of an intelligent nature, you save your biggest insult to last.........he must be an Armenian dashnak!!!!!!!!!!!!! That really is precious and your true face is open to all.
You end most of your posts with a quasi-hippy wish for peace and love with no idea of how to achieve this and with no intention of listening to or considering of others ideas to reach this goal.

[ardakilic]

ancient humanity values in the year 1920 ??? ı see.

so, please tell me, which leader was after ancient humanity values like justice opposing against tyranny in those years? name me one leader. churchill? muhammed? or who?

how about mr bush in the year 2008? and mr olmert??

Ancient humanity values means values coming from through the ages.

"In those years every leader was bloody dictators so everything he did is legal". What a logic! In that case, what about now? Every dictator of that time are sent to hell and are overthrown. But you (Kemalists) still resist to continue his bloody method.

Two numbers for comparison to you:

- There are only two political assasination commited by fascists of Mussolini.
- Just in Independence Courts, people were hanged as much as casualties of Independence War.

[ardakilic]

lal, you accuse arda of hating himself, your posts all carry one significant thread, your own self-loathing, many people here have tried to help you with this, but quite typically you spurn this help.
You worship at the altar of ataturk, how modern that makes you seem.
You link the need to consider human rights to turkey's current and vague wish to please the EU for possible entry. You claim there were no human rights in the 1920s, it follows that there would be no human rights in the decades before. That makes sense in your logic. No need to apologise, recognise the Genocide but because those days were different, no apology.
Your claim about the righteousness of ataturk, arda makes many links to his deeds, whose troops entered and destroyed Smyrna? Whose troops annihilated first the Armenians then the Greeks of Smyrna? ataturk may have not been physically there, but they were his troops.
Lastly, you revert to type with your insults and threats to a forum member, enough to get others banned. You call any anti-kemalist a traitor, if not a traitor then at least he must be a terrorist, you threaten to turn his face into a monkey, is this a type of ape?
To cap it all, because he has discourse of an intelligent nature, you save your biggest insult to last.........he must be an Armenian dashnak!!!!!!!!!!!!! That really is precious and your true face is open to all.
You end most of your posts with a quasi-hippy wish for peace and love with no idea of how to achieve this and with no intention of listening to or considering of others ideas to reach this goal.

Why am i so calm? I am used to Kemalists racism, fascism, amorality, insults, vandalism...

Shall i count some of his murders?

He killed innocent Muslims religious leaders (Iskilipli Atıf Efend, Hace Muhammed Esad Erbili, Tahir-ul Mevlevi), he killed/eliminated socialists (Mustafa Suphi), he killed thousands of Kurds (Kockiri, Dersim, Seyyit Riza), he eliminated liberals (Rauf Orbay, Kazim Karabekir etc.), he assasinated democrats (Ali Sukru Bey, Deli Halit Pasha) and his troops fired Armenian and Greeks towns in Smyrna, he motivated state-provokated pogrom against Jews in 1934...

[ardakilic]

my boyfriend would turn your face into a monkey if you talked like this with us.if you want, ı can give you myreal adress. ım serious.

I won't complain about your words to the site administration because of two reasons:

- Even your bloody Kemalist state could not harm me. You and your thingo are flies in the cow's tail compared to your state.

- I want people can view scandals of Kemalism and it is impossible to be both Kemalist and honest.

Personal note: Jesus Christ Messiah told his apostles: "Veritas liberabit vos". (The truth will set you free).

[Joseph]

Why am i so calm? I am used to Kemalists racism, fascism, amorality, insults, vandalism...

Shall i count some of his murders?

He killed innocent Muslims religious leaders (Iskilipli Atıf Efend, Hace Muhammed Esad Erbili, Tahir-ul Mevlevi), he killed/eliminated socialists (Mustafa Suphi), he killed thousands of Kurds (Kockiri, Dersim, Seyyit Riza), he eliminated liberals (Rauf Orbay, Kazim Karabekir etc.), he assasinated democrats (Ali Sukru Bey, Deli Halit Pasha) and his troops fired Armenian and Greeks towns in Smyrna, he motivated state-provokated pogrom against Jews in 1934...

Karabekir was a liberal!?!?! Yikes.

[Joseph]

I won't complain about your words to the site administration because of two reasons:

- Even your bloody Kemalist state could not harm me. You and your thingo are flies in the cow's tail compared to your state.

- I want people can view scandals of Kemalism and it is impossible to be both Kemalist and honest.

Personal note: Jesus Christ Messiah told his apostles: "Veritas liberabit vos". (The truth will set you free).

This has gone on long enough. You both have made your points and should agree to disagree.

[Sako]

well, ı told you. ı am not that intelligent. maybe if you repeat 10 times ı can understand.

Lal, come on, don't be that way. Stop thinking your the most illiterate person in this world and we're all the smart ones. We're all going through a lot here, trying to help each other. Anyone who isn't here for that purpose doesn't belong here, I'm sure everyone will agree. Whatever I said wasn't that difficult to understand but I told you, I'm ready to clarify anything you don't understand. Even I don't understand what I say sometimes . Just fooling around but really, I'm here at anytime.

instead of talking as if we are big people who can solve all the problems between us, as an ordinary turk what can ı do to make you happy about AG.

ı mean ı signed the apology, although ı was very scared in the beginning nothing happened. thats good.what else can ı do ?

For starters, stop thinking we're here to harrass you or that we think we know everything. Some here just have studied more then you and me. Let's trust them and most importantly trust each other and try to understand why anyone here says whatever he/she says. Let's help each other here in this forum before helping our countries and most importantly, I'm saying this to everyone, let's not jump to fast conclusions, we've been misunderstanding each other more then once, that means me too. That's natural though of course but let's not just say whatever comes to our minds.

Next, stop idolizing ANYONE. If you pray to Ataturk, I understand. Guys, what she means is that she looks up to him rather then prays to him like he's a God in heaven. It's like if I think of G. Andranik, looking up to him like a father and sorta asking for guidance or feeling good inside by thinking of him. Sometimes, at night, I just close my eyes and begin talking to God in my mind or silently, sharing what I feel with him. I mean, there are times when you feel alone or to yourself and believe me, it helps. Everyday, I think about everything I've learned throughout the day before going to sleep and I feel great. I think this is what Lal does and it's normal. Let's not get into her personal life but Lal, I want you to learn about Ataturk properly and then decide whether you want to think of him or not. I think you will be able to make better choices then. I'll read about Ataturk as well properly. I'm not a racist or something but I try to always be extra careful when talking about political figures because you never know who they might've been. Politics are very screwed up and I advise you to not turn political figures into your role models in life. People made Stalin their God in the 40's and we all know who he turned out to be. Maybe Ataturk won't turn out to be a real bad person but still, you don't need to be a part of politics. He did a lot of bad things as well, NO MATTER WHAT OR WHEN. It makes no difference or very little difference.

I'll tell you what else you can do a bit later. There are a few things coming up, you can be a real help, if you really want to change something. Right now though, I beg you to be more attentive. We find ourselves repeating a lot over and over again. I'm not against that, I'd do it again if I knew it would help you but it's a waste of time if you aren't attentive Lal Jan.

ı try to talk to people. nobody listens me. ı shouldnt say this, but ı discovered that even my boyfriend cant feel and think the way ı think and feel. so what can ı do?

Lal Jan, you must respect yourself and trust your heart no matter what anyone says. You don't have to jump off a cliff if your boyfriend does, God forbid. I wish you both all the best. But my point is that you must ALWAYS be able to make your own choices in life without caring what anyone, even the people close to you, will think. Be firm and happy when you look yourself in the mirror. Your a 24 year old mature women, your not a child. If your boyfriend makes you look inferior then maybe you need to think about whether you want to be with him or not. Sorry for sounding like Dr. Phil Lal . Moving on.

you are right. atatürk must be seperated from this issue. you know my family is from the same city of atatürk. we all adore him. ı dont even care what he is.he is my idol.some people pray to muhammed , cant ı pray to atatürk? but ı want to tell you, ı also love armenians. ı try, but ı cant feel the same warmness to kurds or even to azeris. armenians for me are special people.isnt that strange. ım sure ı have some armenian blood also.

I told you Lal, you can do what you like but please read about Ataturk before turning him into an idol, just so you know who he was. We can give you some good books source if you wish.

Arkadaşın Saco.

[VaheTheGreat(e)]

A person can learn from anyone Vahe, anyone, even a dog . And I wasn't teaching you, I was giving you advice. Think what you will. You seriously have the wrong picture of me.

Have you got a dog Saco? Probably you must get one.... I do not see other option....