Israel will be reconize the Armenian Genocide ?

[Anoush]

Re: Israel will be reconize the Armenian Genocide ?

Thank you very much for the warm welcome Anoush Jan....BTW, I agree, All Armenians needed at the time was a fair chance and nothing could have stopped them. The treaty of Sevres would have given Armenia that chance to prosper beyond our imagination.

You are welcomed.

[may]

Re: Israel will be reconize the Armenian Genocide ?

May; May I ask you why at this time you are bombarding Wilsons integrity and digging out vehemently his supposedly anti black stands? Why are you attacking his humanitarian stands this way? We Armenians cherish the very fact that he was a devout Christian and certainly friends of Christians -such as the Armenians? I dont understand your logic at this time?

Anoush, I understand that Wilson proposed plans which are politically in favor of Armenians and one can back him because of this. But extending the subject to his personality, his (in my opinion, non-existing) humanitarian character just dramatizes the issue. What if he was not a christian and still proposed the same things? I don't think there is a need to create a myth about his humanitarian side while his actions had shown a clear racist pattern in U.S. domestic politics. An evil is still an evil, even when he is on your side.

And Eddo, my example of Afghanistan was mainly to show the religion part of foreign interventions. There may not be a need for religion based brotherhood to help, or religion based hatred to punish. When the context is right, anything is "justified" in international politics. That being said, I still find it hard to justify U.S. intervention in Afghanistan neither during Soviet times, nor recently.

[Eddo211]

Re: Israel will be reconize the Armenian Genocide ?

.....And Eddo, my example of Afghanistan was mainly to show the religion part of foreign interventions. There may not be a need for religion based brotherhood to help, or religion based hatred to punish. When the context is right, anything is "justified" in international politics. That being said, I still find it hard to justify U.S. intervention in Afghanistan neither during Soviet times, nor recently.

You know one thing I have learned in my life may is that if you are religious then it is all about religion. If you are a nationalist then it is all about land and defense. If you are none of the above then it is all about black gold and control. Either way you look at it greed, envy, and prejudice are the root causes of all problems.

[Anoush]

Re: Israel will be reconize the Armenian Genocide ?

Anoush, I understand that Wilson proposed plans which are politically in favor of Armenians and one can back him because of this. But extending the subject to his personality, his (in my opinion, non-existing) humanitarian character just dramatizes the issue. What if he was not a christian and still proposed the same things? I don't think there is a need to create a myth about his humanitarian side while his actions had shown a clear racist pattern in U.S. domestic politics. An evil is still an evil, even when he is on your side.

may; you are vehemently downplaying President Woodraw Wilson's character. Then what would I say for your turkish grandparents who killed barbarically on broad daylight in 1915 my great grandfather of 80 years of age, my great auncle of 38 years of age and my grandfather of 37 years of age and shoved them in front of their own house for their women to pick their corpses up. Then in less than 6 months, your turkish grandparents forced the helpless women, including my great grandmother of 75 years of age and my own saintly grandmother of 28 years of age with their children and sisters to exile them from their own homeland of millenia and made them walk in human bondage caravans down to mesopotamia where most of them were massacred then thrown in Shadaadin's pit. Then after all that when a very few naked half dead women and children arrived in Damascus, Syria Talaat Pasha of the Attaturks has sent a telegram to the governor of Syria to kill every Armenian that arrived in Syrian land. But the benevolent Syrian governor didn't do Talaat's wish; and that is why the Diasporan Armenians are alive today. And in Smyrna in 1922 when they burned Smirna, amongst the 130,00 Armenians that were again annihilated by your father of new turkey the Kemalist, my maternal grandmother's entire family of 150 members were brutally annihilated except 5 members who bravely and by luck escaped, and one of those 5 was my grandmother.

What and what SHOULD I call your great grandfathers who brutally murdered practically our whole Armenian nationality and took over our lands and our buildings and our wealth. Who should I rightfully complain to, heh, heh heh?

[Eddo211]

Re: Israel will be reconize the Armenian Genocide ?

may; you are vehemently downplaying President Woodraw Wilson's character. Then what would I say for your turkish grandparents who killed barbarically on broad daylight in 1915 my great grandfather of 80 years of age, my great auncle of 38 years of age and my grandfather of 37 years of age and shoved them in front of their own house for their women to pick their corpses up. Then in less than 6 months, your turkish grandparents forced the helpless women, including my great grandmother of 75 years of age and my own saintly grandmother of 28 years of age with their children and sisters to exile them from their own homeland of millenia and made them walk in human bondage caravans down to mesopotamia where most of them were massacred then thrown in Shadaadin's pit. Then after all that when a very few naked half dead women and children arrived in Damascus, Syria Talaat Pasha of the Attaturks has sent a telegram to the governor of Syria to kill every Armenian that arrived in Syrian land. But the benevolent Syrian governor didn't do Talaat's wish; and that is why the Diasporan Armenians are alive today. And in Smyrna in 1922 when they burned Smirna, amongst the 130,00 Armenians that were again annihilated by your father of new turkey the Kemalist, my maternal grandmother's entire family of 150 members were brutally annihilated except 5 members who bravely and by luck escaped, and one of those 5 was my grandmother.

What and what SHOULD I call your great grandfathers who brutally murdered practically our whole Armenian nationality and took over our lands and our buildings and our wealth. Who should I rightfully complain to, heh, heh heh?

Anoush Jan, our losses are unimaginable and our personnel and National grief is beyond the comprehension of even the most open minded Turks. My Grandfather was only 14 when he was given a rifle taller than him and was told to protect his people. He ended up escorting Armenian families on a two month journey with no food, water, and even shoes from Urmie to Bagdad with the enemy in pursuit. Many suffered unimmagenable deaths. The cries of his people hunted him the rest of his life. I still have his Mosin Nagant.

[Haykakan]

Re: Israel will be reconize the Armenian Genocide ?

Hell even we can't completely comprehend the suffering our ancestors went through.Not to mention what the survivors had to endure afterwards.Amazingly enoughf even the turcks who agree that it happened and know all about it will say it happened long ago and we shouldn'e be the ones paying for the crimes of previous generation.I wonder had this happened to them if this would still be their reaction?I think not!

[may]

Re: Israel will be reconize the Armenian Genocide ?

may; you are vehemently downplaying President Woodraw Wilson's character. Then what would I say for your turkish grandparents who killed barbarically on broad daylight in 1915 my great grandfather of 80 years of age, my great auncle of 38 years of age and my grandfather of 37 years of age and shoved them in front of their own house for their women to pick their corpses up. Then in less than 6 months, your turkish grandparents forced the helpless women, including my great grandmother of 75 years of age and my own saintly grandmother of 28 years of age with their children and sisters to exile them from their own homeland of millenia and made them walk in human bondage caravans down to mesopotamia where most of them were massacred then thrown in Shadaadin's pit. Then after all that when a very few naked half dead women and children arrived in Damascus, Syria Talaat Pasha of the Attaturks has sent a telegram to the governor of Syria to kill every Armenian that arrived in Syrian land. But the benevolent Syrian governor didn't do Talaat's wish; and that is why the Diasporan Armenians are alive today. And in Smyrna in 1922 when they burned Smirna, amongst the 130,00 Armenians that were again annihilated by your father of new turkey the Kemalist, my maternal grandmother's entire family of 150 members were brutally annihilated except 5 members who bravely and by luck escaped, and one of those 5 was my grandmother.

What and what SHOULD I call your great grandfathers who brutally murdered practically our whole Armenian nationality and took over our lands and our buildings and our wealth. Who should I rightfully complain to, heh, heh heh?

My grandparents did not kill, or intend to kill anybody, so I am not the person to answer your questions. I can talk about the things happened, I can say I feel also sorry (maybe nothing compared to your grief, but as sincerely as I can) and I can say I will be one of the Turkish families that were hiding their Armenian neighbours. But all of this, I will not do from the seat of the guilty as if I am giving my defense, because simply I am not.

You can call my grandparents, Turkish people, simple and plain. As evil as anybody else. Some peasants at that time, probably suffering from post-war economy, and did not even hear about Armenian's tragedy 100 km's away. Or they heard but could not do anything. I honestly do not know who to complain, if I knew I would do it myself. An international court, which either do not exist, or if it exists, they don't have the right to judge the historical events. I only know that pointing people who has nothing to do with the actions is not right as well. If those people that you blamed could time travel, things might have been completely different. So, is it just to blaim them?

And these has nothing to do with Wilson's being racist either. I understand why you like him, but as I said there is no need to form a myth about his personality. I cannot be "downplaying", let alone vehemently, because there is nothing to "play", I am not speculating. I just provided some solid information about what he has done. And different than your perspective, I am not claiming Wilson's family to be responsible, because he did what he did. He was the president, yes, but that does not necessarily mean all the things that he did was approved by the American public.

[may]

Re: Israel will be reconize the Armenian Genocide ?

Hell even we can't completely comprehend the suffering our ancestors went through.Not to mention what the survivors had to endure afterwards.Amazingly enoughf even the turcks who agree that it happened and know all about it will say it happened long ago and we shouldn'e be the ones paying for the crimes of previous generation.I wonder had this happened to them if this would still be their reaction?I think not!

Haykakan, you may be perfectly right. If it happened to us we won't be saying that. An immediate example: After ethnic cleansing of Bosnia (Muslims in general, an a considerable part with Turkish/Ottoman decent), Serbian leader's trial did not satisfy anyone in Turkey because everybody thought it was all the Serbs that are guilty. You may call it hypocrisy, but when people are hurt badly, when they seek for revenge or try to recover from wounds that cannot actually be healed, their reason can be clouded.

I understand your protest, your seek for recognition of what you have been through. But please, try to understand us when we say "I'm not the quilty one". It is not a denial of your past, or our past, but a helpnessnes to change what happened totaly out of control or our aim.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Israel will be reconize the Armenian Genocide ?

I Unlike other immigrant groups, Afro-Americans were not assimilated but rather innudated by the white majority. Isolated politically, educationally and economically, if not culturally, they were as foreign bodies without a host organism"[/I]

That's a stupid opinion. Until the 1970s, Afro-Americans were not an "immigrant group", unless immigration refers to internal migration within the United States. Scan the Ellis Island records and I doubt if you will see any persons from Africa.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Israel will be reconize the Armenian Genocide ?

Haykakan, you may be perfectly right. If it happened to us we won't be saying that. An immediate example: After ethnic cleansing of Bosnia (Muslims in general, an a considerable part with Turkish/Ottoman decent), Serbian leader's trial did not satisfy anyone in Turkey because everybody thought it was all the Serbs that are guilty. You may call it hypocrisy, but when people are hurt badly, when they seek for revenge or try to recover from wounds that cannot actually be healed, their reason can be clouded.

Not hypocrisy, Islam. A Muslim would consider himself hurt badly if he read about a non-Muslim somewhere hundreds of miles away accidentally standing on another Muslims foot.