Baby Steps

[may]

Re: Baby Steps

point taken may, but where do these 70,ooo work?
Business relationships are always welcome and are a great catalyst for talks between governments.

Hrai, I really have no idea about this 70.000. I heard this statistics very recently and I am not even sure of the number. I sometimes feel like they may be counting anybody that pass the border for business or touristic visit. Even so, that shows an increasing trend for the "talk" anyways.

My gut feeling is, they are probably working in Istanbul with Armenians living there, or right across the border where Armenian speaking people are needed for trade etc. Another option is the craftsmenship (especially silver) which Armenians were famous for in Anatolia. For my curiosity, and for you too, I'll try to find some information. If I can find something, I'll post it here.

[hrai]

Re: Baby Steps

Hrai, in Turkey, if we have any excessive resource, that's cheap labor. There is no work in Turkey that one won't be able to find anyone willing to do with the price s/he offers. Especially nowadays even skilled labor is jobless and a lot of people are working for peanuts. I'm not even sure how many number of people in total works in an agency of "illegal labor" or any such bureau. Turkey is not an attraction point for work, it is only a stopping point before advancing to Europe. So, the idea of Turkish government letting - specifically -Armenian workers work, does not sound much likely to me.

On the other hand, discussion of opening the borders, Armenians starting business relationship with Turkish neighbours, is indeed valuable. Not in terms of monetary issues, but in terms of starting to "talk" again.

point taken may, but where do these 70,ooo work?
Business relationships are always welcome and are a great catalyst for talks between governments.

[may]

Re: Baby Steps

Perhaps you're right hitite, the cynic in me tells me that the migrant Armenian workers in turkey are tolerated by the authorities simply because they're cheap,pliable because of their legal status, do jobs others might not want and should the economic situation worsen(!) they can be booted back to RA at the drop of a hat with the full support of the turkish population.

Hrai, in Turkey, if we have any excessive resource, that's cheap labor. There is no work in Turkey that one won't be able to find anyone willing to do with the price s/he offers. Especially nowadays even skilled labor is jobless and a lot of people are working for peanuts. I'm not even sure how many number of people in total works in an agency of "illegal labor" or any such bureau. Turkey is not an attraction point for work, it is only a stopping point before advancing to Europe. So, the idea of Turkish government letting - specifically -Armenian workers work, does not sound much likely to me.

On the other hand, discussion of opening the borders, Armenians starting business relationship with Turkish neighbours, is indeed valuable. Not in terms of monetary issues, but in terms of starting to "talk" again.

[Anonymouse]

Re: Baby Steps

How many more threads will be closed before the preacher gets a ban?

That's essentially the punishment. There will be no serious discussions unless both sides stop with the childishness because threads will be closed.

[Sako]

Re: Baby Steps

On the same point, attacks & insults against others don't help anyone.

I completely agree. Racist and Nationalistic insults don't help either, you forgot to mention that. And getting agitated immediately and being prepared for fights with almost anyone against certain views is also not helping. Let's also remember that when a Turk enters the forums, we shouldn't pounce on them like we were waiting for/stalking them for ages.

[hrai]

Re: Baby Steps

By attacking and insulting these moderate Turks on every drop of a dime we are playing straight into the hands of their Government confirming the lies that have been programmed in their population.

I suggest we treat everyone with the same respect that we would want to be treated with and give them the benefit of doubt…

Well said Eddo.
On the same point, attacks & insults against others don't help anyone. In fact, these recent attacks have simply caused threads to be closed and members to be banned which really does play into the turk denialists hands as yet another opportunity for discussion of AG is closed.

[hrai]

Re: Baby Steps

You were riling and inciting things up in the other thread. Keep that up and your candle will be extinguished.

How many more threads will be closed before the preacher gets a ban?

[hrai]

Re: Baby Steps

6- We are doing a good deal of business with them. Money supercedes old angers and prejudices and provides a medium in which people have to behave rationally and civilly. Thus people become friends and start telling their own stories to eachother and actually continue to see each other. This process has long started between Turkey and ROA and the diaspora is being left out of this big time.

7- There are reportedly 70,000 Armenians working in Turkey. Turkey claims to be keeping these illegal workers in the country as a gesture for improved relations with ROA that we seem to see small sparks of. I have doubts about the sincerity of these remarks and also the number of Armenians but if it is the case it is good grounds for normalisation.

Perhaps you're right hitite, the cynic in me tells me that the migrant Armenian workers in turkey are tolerated by the authorities simply because they're cheap,pliable because of their legal status, do jobs others might not want and should the economic situation worsen(!) they can be booted back to RA at the drop of a hat with the full support of the turkish population.

[Sako]

Re: Baby Steps

This process has long started between Turkey and ROA and the diaspora is being left out of this big time.

Good point. Glad to see our minor disagreements haven't stopped you from replying. Welcome back !

I think as the list grows, we can clearly see that A LOT of baby steps are being taken and soon, big steps will be taken as well if everything continues this way. To the future. Cheers.

[hitite]

Re: Baby Steps

Hi again everyone.

On many occasions, I have heard different people say/ask "What progress have Turk's made?" or "What progress do we see?". Some don't know naturally while many on the other hand underestimate anything being done today. This thread is basically a progress report meant to throw a light on all the steps being taken today to make a difference by Turkey/Turks. To move a mountain, we must start moving small stones. To take big steps forward, we must first take baby steps. If we do not appreciate them, we will never appreciate the bold steps and frankly speaking, ignoring any progress at this time I feel is a sin. We all want the same thing, to revive our nation, to revive our spirits, our hopes, and most importantly our history which is trying to be hidden and destroyed. To get what we want, to finally find some peace of mind, we will need to take bold steps but appreciate even the smallest if we want anything to change. Allow us to take this time to appreciate what is being or has been done and without any sarcasm, politics, racism, or nationalism involved.

__________________________________________________ _______________

1. At Hrant Dink's funeral, tens of thousands of Turks flooded the streets of Istanbul, shouting out "We are all Armenians" and "We are all Hrant Dink".

2. A Turk gave away his family land as Genocide reparation.

3. Almost 30,000 Turks have signed a petition apologizing to all the Armenians around the world.

4. Many Turks have become very friendly with many Armenians and show their support in many, many ways.

5. A football game took place in Armenia between Turkey and Armenia. (It’s not much but definitely is some little step forward. Before, even that wasn’t possible)

Feel free to add to the list and only appropriate material please.

6- We are doing a good deal of business with them. Money supercedes old angers and prejudices and provides a medium in which people have to behave rationally and civilly. Thus people become friends and start telling their own stories to eachother and actually continue to see each other. This process has long started between Turkey and ROA and the diaspora is being left out of this big time.

7- There are reportedly 70,000 Armenians working in Turkey. Turkey claims to be keeping these illegal workers in the country as a gesture for improved relations with ROA that we seem to see small sparks of. I have doubts about the sincerity of these remarks and also the number of Armenians but if it is the case it is good grounds for normalisation.