Baby Steps

[Alexandros]

Re: Baby Steps

I agree with Saco.


@ UrMistake

To start a war is actually pretty easy.The question is what would the consequences be out of it and for how long time would the war continue before it ends; in what situation would the losing - or the winning - side be...those are some questions you have to ask yourself before you go to war.

I personally think that going to war should always be the last option, especially in Greece`s case since we don`t have a strong ally behind us.Had we had the strong relations, as Armenia has with Russia then maybe, just maybe we could have used that to our country`s interest(Turkey was about to invade Armenia back in the 90s but Russia told Turkey to back off which they did).But then again, if you could solve problems in a peaceful way - whether it`s the Aegean dispute or the Cyprus issue then I think that should be pursued.

Sometimes I wonder why Greece is a member of NATO since it hasn`t been to our favour.We are buying all these weapons from USA but it doesn`t give us anything back.We should really ask ourselves if NATO really gives us that "protection" in case of a "war", especially in a war against Turkey, although USA would never allow such a thing.USA`s weapon industry is making a lot of money because of the disputes between Greece and Turkey....it`s probably in USA`s interest that there are some tensions in the Aegean sea or not to mention the Cyprus issue so that we should continue to buy their bloody weapons.Even the "Annan plan" for Cyprus was written to favour Turkey and of course USA.We all know that USA wants to see Turkey join the EU in order break up the Franco-German axis; Turkey`s good relations with the U.K means that these two countries could form an alliance within the EU against the Franco-German axis.Anyway, thank God that the Cypriots voted against the Annan plan.

Remember the Imia crisis in 1996?When Greece showed maps to the then President Bill Clinton which showed that Imia clearly belongs to Greece he didn`t care.USA said something like that Imia neither belongs to Greece nor to Turkey; for USA it was just another way to create more problems in the Aegean sea between Greece and Turkey.However a full scale war between Greece and Turkey would not be alllowed by USA since it would pretty much destroy NATO`s image as a "strong" alliance that has a "strong" unity...

And lastly, the best thing that could happen Greece and Cyprus would be that if the EU created a common EU-army which is actually where we are heading at...it will take some time but if you read in the new EU-constitution - "Treaty of Lisbon" - it says, "the Common Security and Defence Policy shall include the progressive framing of a common Union defence policy. This will lead to a common defence when the European Council acting unanimously so decides."

Suddenly, the Aegean dispute and the Cyprus issue becomes even more a "European" problem between the EU and Turkey instead of a bilateral problem between Greece/Cyprus on the one hand and Turkey on the other hand.

[hrai]

Re: Baby Steps

I agree with Saco.


@ UrMistake

To start a war is actually pretty easy.The question is what would the consequences be out of it and for how long time would the war continue before it ends; in what situation would the losing - or the winning - side be...those are some questions you have to ask yourself before you go to war.

I personally think that going to war should always be the last option, especially in Greece`s case since we don`t have a strong ally behind us.Had we had the strong relations, as Armenia has with Russia then maybe, just maybe we could have used that to our country`s interest(Turkey was about to invade Armenia back in the 90s but Russia told Turkey to back off which they did).But then again, if you could solve problems in a peaceful way - whether it`s the Aegean dispute or the Cyprus issue then I think that should be pursued.

Sometimes I wonder why Greece is a member of NATO since it hasn`t been to our favour.We are buying all these weapons from USA but it doesn`t give us anything back.We should really ask ourselves if NATO really gives us that "protection" in case of a "war", especially in a war against Turkey, although USA would never allow such a thing.USA`s weapon industry is making a lot of money because of the disputes between Greece and Turkey....it`s probably in USA`s interest that there are some tensions in the Aegean sea or not to mention the Cyprus issue so that we should continue to buy their bloody weapons.Even the "Annan plan" for Cyprus was written to favour Turkey and of course USA.We all know that USA wants to see Turkey join the EU in order break up the Franco-German axis; Turkey`s good relations with the U.K means that these two countries could form an alliance within the EU against the Franco-German axis.Anyway, thank God that the Cypriots voted against the Annan plan.

Remember the Imia crisis in 1996?When Greece showed maps to the then President Bill Clinton which showed that Imia clearly belongs to Greece he didn`t care.USA said something like that Imia neither belongs to Greece nor to Turkey; for USA it was just another way to create more problems in the Aegean sea between Greece and Turkey.However a full scale war between Greece and Turkey would not be alllowed by USA since it would pretty much destroy NATO`s image as a "strong" alliance that has a "strong" unity...

And lastly, the best thing that could happen Greece and Cyprus would be that if the EU created a common EU-army which is actually where we are heading at...it will take some time but if you read in the new EU-constitution - "Treaty of Lisbon" - it says, "the Common Security and Defence Policy shall include the progressive framing of a common Union defence policy. This will lead to a common defence when the European Council acting unanimously so decides."

Suddenly, the Aegean dispute and the Cyprus issue becomes even more a "European" problem between the EU and Turkey instead of a bilateral problem between Greece/Cyprus on the one hand and Turkey on the other hand.

War has to be the last resort.
Long or short wars destroy lives, young ,old and innocent. The ones who actually create the war, politicos, business, whoever are most likely to survive uninjured, either physically or financially.
If the politicians, business leaders had to jump in a jet or tank, pick up an AK47 or M16, I think we'd see more negotiation.
Maybe Greece was co-erced into NATO to prevent it's completing the Communisation of the Balkans, co-erced and kept in therefore Uncle Sam gives little.
If turkey were to join the EU and form a bloc with Britain to rival and challenge France/Germany, then this would be the end of the EU. The EU was formed specifically to stop the French & Germans killing each other and has allowed them the European markets and hegemony they desired without bullets. Destabilise that and Strasburg topples.

[hrai]

Re: Baby Steps

And we will never forget that. Only a fool would forget. But neither should we hate the Turks as a whole. I can give you more reasons then you can remember to back my point.

Can you give me some?

[Sako]

Re: Baby Steps

You asked for it ...

I) The majority of the Turkish population doesn't know a thing or knows very little about the AG and "Ermeni". This is one reason we have no right to judge the Turkish people very sternly or as a whole. We must be more understanding!

II) When Hrant was muredered, different Turkish newspapers stated that more Turks walked down the streets shouting at the top of their lungs then when Ataturk died!

III) Small but important steps have been and are still being taken forward today, as we speak. For example, a man gave away his entire land as restitution when he realized it belonged to our forefather's.

IV) An apology campaign was started by four Turkish intellectuals (and continues till today) and in the end more then 30,000 signatures were collected. Many of the signers went through a lot of problems and although all the signers knew how risky it was to support the campaign ... they still did!

V) TILL TODAY, many young Turks that loved Hrant continue to fight in his and our favor, RISKING THEIR LIVES.

VI) The 301 article doesn't allow ANYONE to talk about the AG. This is a very important reason why we have to stop and think about what we're doing and what we're asking from Turkey's New Generation. They don't even have the right to talk freely so it's pointless blaming them for EVERYTHING. The majority of the population only knows what their leaders force them to learn in schools. So we have to be more understanding, period!

VII) A lot that goes on in Turkey ... STAY'S in Turkey. This new film called Neretsek Mez Hayer really shows a side of Turkey we haven't completely seen before. One Turk, a shoe-waxer (in the commercial), asked to polish the Armenian interviewers shoes stating that by cleaning his shoes ... he would clean his heart. This is simply one example. I can already imagine what else I'll be able to hear and see when I actually watch the entire movie.

VIII) Famous Turkish musicians, singers, etc. have performed with our musicians and singers. One small example (thank you for letting me know, May, I don't go through You Tube a lot), Erkan Ogur made an album with Djivan Gasparyan. Another example, a famous Turkish singer sang about the AG (in Turkish) in the song Adana, composed by our very own Ara Gevorgian (a very famous Armenian composer). Many other such examples can be cited and we should remember that these kinds of events are very risky. Everyone involved take big risks and we should ALWAYS acknowledge them at least in ourselves when we talk about Turkey and Armenian-Turkish relations!

IX) Some of the biggest names in Turkey support us today, Orhan Pamuk being one of them!

X) Many Turks of all ages are showing their support today and have become good friends of many Armenians, including me and many others here in the AG Forums and in Turkey!

XI) Many Turks that didn't know a thing about the AG are starting to go deeper into the past in any way they can.

XII) Hundreds of Turks have visited and continue to visit the AG Museum here in Yerevan and when they come out, you can see their horrified faces. Most of them claim that they can't believe their grandfathers could do all that they did and that they never heard anything serious related to the AG as they grew up and you know what? ... I BELIEVE THEM. Only a fool wouldn't. Just visit Turkey once in your life and you'll start to see how heavy the air is over there.

XIII) Many ordinary Turks RISK THEIR LIVES & CAREERS FOR US ... TILL TODAY. Many Armenians haven't gone through half of what they've gone and still go through today. The very least we can do is appreciate their endeavors and support them in any way we can instead of aiming our guns at all the Turks in the world and placing the title "ENEMY" under their names. Many Armenians, RIGHT HERE IN YEREVAN, don't give a hoot about our countries past. They only care about their fancy jeeps and BMW's. If we can support them then why can't we support the ones that really deserve to be supported??? Many smart Turkish individuals have almost no support, even from their families, but still put their lives on the freakin line for us and what do many of us do in return? Almost nothing. Instead of helping, we make it all even worse for them. The few proper Turks that existed in these forums have disappeared because some of us can't control our egos and our anger. Let's talk about that!

Turkey is going through a very serious phase right now because many Turks have started searching for answers and something tells me their very close to finding them. We have to support them and use this current situation to our advantage. Pointing our pistols at them won't get us anywhere and whoever said guns will give us what we want ... LIED. Guns only lead to blood and blood leads to more blood. Right now, we don't need guns. We have a more powerful weapon and if we all look at the bigger picture, we'll see and be able to use it properly. Many of us only talk about the problems which we've heard a million times over but don't offer any proper solutions. Even do that is true, many, many Turks have used any small opportunities that have come their way to support the AG. What we must understand is that the people in Turkey have very small opportunities to learn about our past, one of them being the internet, and we should try to help them (those that deserve to be supported) as much as we can instead of barging on top of their heads the second they enter a forum or accidentally say something we don't like. That kind of treatment would piss off any Armenian and so I urge all Armenians to not treat all the Turks that way because many Turkish xxxxxxxs use that against us. Plus, it's just not right and get's us NO WHERE.

We must acknowledge what is going on in Turkey nowadays, ALWAYS REMEMBER what type of a country it is, what rediculous laws the Turkish people have to follow everyday, and most importantly what they are going through for us. It is now the time to look at the bigger picture and if we do, we will be able to get the Armenian Genocide recognized much sooner. We have the right to be angry, we have the right to be sad and upset my brothers and sisters, but let our rage not blind us. We have opportunities right now to sort out everything that has happened at a perhaps slow but steady pace and it is time to stand together and differentiate our friends from our enemies. There are GOOD and BAD people EVERYWHERE, including Turkey, and we will be simply retarded if we do not accept this fact.

I thank all the proper Turkish citizens for what they have done and go through as we speak and show my FULL SUPPORT as an Armenian and as a human being and I urge all my fellow Armenians to control their hate and not allow their hate to control them.

Let me know if you need any more reasons ...

[hipeter924]

Re: Baby Steps

War has to be the last resort.
Long or short wars destroy lives, young ,old and innocent. The ones who actually create the war, politicos, business, whoever are most likely to survive uninjured, either physically or financially.
If the politicians, business leaders had to jump in a jet or tank, pick up an AK47 or M16, I think we'd see more negotiation.
Maybe Greece was co-erced into NATO to prevent it's completing the Communisation of the Balkans, co-erced and kept in therefore Uncle Sam gives little.
If turkey were to join the EU and form a bloc with Britain to rival and challenge France/Germany, then this would be the end of the EU. The EU was formed specifically to stop the French & Germans killing each other and has allowed them the European markets and hegemony they desired without bullets. Destabilise that and Strasburg topples.

1. Greece was never coerced they went into Nato willingly and happily, after all they did not want to be liberated from Hitler to just lose their freedom to Stalin. Then again Britain had significant influence in Greece before WW2, since British and British Colonial forces defended Greece when it was being invaded by Hitler, so the Greeks had loyalty to Britain, and no loyalty to Stalin (except the communist guerillas of course).

2. I agree with you about the EU. I think it was unwise for the EU to take on so many members, some might say the EU is reeling from the strain of many of the former East Communist Block states.

The nice clean EU image is soured by illegal immigration, and crime is a big issue because some nations are still poor and corrupt within the EU and this hurts the richer or more stable member nations.

I think the EU has enough hassles already, if Turkey is added the European Union might just collapse into chaos...something which Russia, China and the United States should be worried about.

We don't want another era of European internal disputes and/or wars, the ones before ww2, the Balkan wars, and the break up of Yugoslavia were enough.

[hrai]

Re: Baby Steps

1. Greece was never coerced they went into Nato willingly and happily, after all they did not want to be liberated from Hitler to just lose their freedom to Stalin. Then again Britain had significant influence in Greece before WW2, since British and British Colonial forces defended Greece when it was being invaded by Hitler, so the Greeks had loyalty to Britain, and no loyalty to Stalin (except the communist guerillas of course).

Hipeter, the "communist guerillas" would probably have won the Greek Civil War without Western opposition, it was a full scale war and must have been terrible for a country not even released from German/Italian occupation when it broke out.
Remember, all Eastern Europe had been conquered by the Red Army, all the Balkans were Communist, Italy was heavily tilting towards a Communist government. The West were petrified that Uncle Joe would be in Berlin, and have practically the entire Eastern Mediterranean as his paddling pool.
I think I read somewhere that eventually an agreement was reached between USA/UK & USSR that Greece would be in what became the NATO sphere.
British & Colonial troops didn't defend Greece, they attempted defending Crete, this was after the Germans had been pulled in to support the Italians.

[hrai]

Re: Baby Steps

But neither should we hate the Turks as a whole.

When people say " I hate turcs", do they mean they hate all turcs? Or just the majority? In general? Does it mean they can't appreciate some of the reasons you give above Saco?

Personally, I hate turcs............always have.

However, I don't hate all turcs, some turcs I know are okay and I mean real turcs, not "cyber friends". I don't/can't hate some turcs on this forum.
I don't hate turcs who admit the crimes of their forefathers and wish to make recognition & restitution ( & probably the ones researching to allow them to become educated about the AG).

But, if someone asks me "do you hate turcs?" I'll answer "Yes", because it's easier than saying "Weeellll, yes except for......blah,blah".

Do you see my point? I don't ask you to agree with it, but I ask you to see it.

[Sako]

Re: Baby Steps

When people say " I hate turcs", do they mean they hate all turcs? Or just the majority?

I've met almost every type of person in my life. There have been people who hate ALL Turks and there have been those who, as you put it, simply hate the majority. There have been many other types as well but one special type of person I'd like to point out is the one that hates Turks completely but acts as if he hates only the majority. After you talk to them for five minutes you can start hearing every cussword in history rocketing out of their mouth!

Does it mean they can't appreciate some of the reasons you give above Saco?

Frankly speaking, I don't understand why someone shouldn't or might have trouble appreciating every reason I mentioned but to answer your question Hrai ... No, they can't only appreciate some of the reasons mentioned above because they all have a lot in common. I don't want to go into details or anything but my point is that if you appreciate some of the points then you'll automatically appreciate the others. I don't see why someone won't. But incase someone doesn't then I'm afraid he/she needs to change his/her attitude because if he/she doesn't appreciate the baby steps being taken then neither will he/she appreciate the major steps that may be taken in the future. That's why I started this thread, to help us appreciate the gravity of the situation. I didn't do this because I've fallen deeply in love with all the Turks in the world. I did this because I respect what many, many individuals are doing for me, my country, and my people and I feel sorry for so many innocent people who have to go through hell today because of what a bunch of b*tches did a hundred years ago. I don't blame every Turk ... I blame the REAL Turks.

However, I don't hate all turcs, some turcs I know are okay and I mean real turcs, not "cyber friends". I don't/can't hate some turcs on this forum. I don't hate turcs who admit the crimes of their forefathers and wish to make recognition & restitution ( & probably the ones researching to allow them to become educated about the AG).

But, if someone asks me "do you hate turcs?" I'll answer "Yes", because it's easier than saying "Weeellll, yes except for......blah,blah".

Haha, that's an interesting way of putting it. Let me ask you something. What do you think I say when people ask me that question??? You think I start from square one and then begin mentioning all the points mentioned in my last post, word for word? My reply is simple, "No, I hate the Turks that deserve to be hated!". In other words, I support Turks that deserve to be supported, not EVERY Turk. And although you say that you appreciate this Turk or that Turk, until now, there have been occasions when you went against me when I was saying the exact same thing you were saying. All the same, what's happened has happened. Coming back to what I was saying...

What many don't appreciate, including you, is how thick the air is right now. Although you might respect some Turks .... still, when you say "YES, I HATE TURKS" most people don't and won't understand you correctly (naturally, hate is a very powerful word) ... ESPECIALLY Turks. Not because their stupid ... because there's lots of tension between Armenian's and Turks at the moment. I don't blame anyone, mind you. All I'm saying is that we should be more careful what we say and remember that it's not WHAT we say but rather HOW we say it that matters. Many people disregard how important words are, especially in these forums where you can't see anyone. We should be ten times more careful here for crying out loud.

Do you see my point? I don't ask you to agree with it, but I ask you to see it.

Don't worry, I can see what your saying ... I just hope you can see what I'M saying!

[Alexandros]

Re: Baby Steps

It was already agreed between USA, UK and USSR in Yalta in 1945 that Greece would be under the Brits influence.However when the civil war broke out in Greece in 1944,(which was a two-stage conflict; December 1944–January 1945 and 1946–49) between the Greek commies and the Greek right guerillas, it was thanks to the Brits who defeated the Grek commies in the first stage of the Greek civil war.In the second stage of the Greek civil war the fight against the Greek commies had been taken over by USA since it became too much for the Brits to handle the situation in Greece.USA sent massive economic and military aid to the Greek army to fight against the Greek commies and they were defeated again.

Another thing that led to the Greek commies defeat was that USA had threatened USSR that a war would break out between them over Yugoslavija and Bulgaria if these two communistic countries didn`t close their borders with Greece since USSR aided the Greek commies with weapons.What also USA did was to give Yugoslavija and Bulgaria money "under the table" - but under the condition that Yugoslavija and Bulgaria would close their borders with Greece which they also did.

It was natural that Greece joined NATO in 1952 considering that we were on the Allies side in the WW2 and the Yalta agreement which meant that we came under the Brits influence.We were also given the Dodecanese(the twelve islands in the Aegean sea) by the Brits after the WW2 as a thanks for fighting on the Allies side in WW2.

However Greece left NATO in 1974 as a protest since NATO member Turkey invaded Cyprus but also because that USA and the Brits gave quitely the "green light" to Turkey to invade Cyprus.After a couple of years later Greece became a NATO member again in 1980.

[hrai]

Re: Baby Steps

It was already agreed between USA, UK and USSR in Yalta in 1945 that Greece would be under the Brits influence.However when the civil war broke out in Greece in 1944,(which was a two-stage conflict; December 1944–January 1945 and 1946–49) between the Greek commies and the Greek right guerillas, it was thanks to the Brits who defeated the Grek commies in the first stage of the Greek civil war.In the second stage of the Greek civil war the fight against the Greek commies had been taken over by USA since it became too much for the Brits to handle the situation in Greece.USA sent massive economic and military aid to the Greek army to fight against the Greek commies and they were defeated again.

Another thing that led to the Greek commies defeat was that USA had threatened USSR that a war would break out between them over Yugoslavija and Bulgaria if these two communistic countries didn`t close their borders with Greece since USSR aided the Greek commies with weapons.What also USA did was to give Yugoslavija and Bulgaria money "under the table" - but under the condition that Yugoslavija and Bulgaria would close their borders with Greece which they also did.

It was natural that Greece joined NATO in 1952 considering that we were on the Allies side in the WW2 and the Yalta agreement which meant that we came under the Brits influence.We were also given the Dodecanese(the twelve islands in the Aegean sea) by the Brits after the WW2 as a thanks for fighting on the Allies side in WW2.

However Greece left NATO in 1974 as a protest since NATO member Turkey invaded Cyprus but also because that USA and the Brits gave quitely the "green light" to Turkey to invade Cyprus.After a couple of years later Greece became a NATO member again in 1980.

merci