Who was responsible for orchestrating the 1915 Armenian genocide?

[hrai]

Re: Who was responsible for orchestrating the 1915 Armenian genocide?

Hi Hrai,

The paragraph I wrote above are not my words. These are said by Hrant Dink in Europe to the European crowd after he got an award. Not that I do not agree or whatever Hrant Dink says is correct, these are not the reasons I posted it. Actually I was expecting responses as "you Turks always distracting the subject, diverting the blame, you are reading your history books and bullshiiting here" etc. The response you gave was, personally speaking, highly unexpected. I think while I tried to bait some people here to show their ironic brainwashed attitude while claiming all Turks are brainwashed, I got the bait myself As a matter of fact, I still think I should wait for responses I expect to hear instead of writing this explanation, but I want to call it off.

Here is the video I am talking about: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PL9Xi...eature=related

What I wrote above was almost one-to-one translation of what he said between 2:43-4:01 and 5:00-5:10. He thanks for the award and says "we writers do not make not only some people upset/angry/uncomfortable but everyone. Now, maybe, I'll make you a bit upset/angry/uncomfortable." to the crowd. And in the part I skipped he tells about Eu being an opportunity for both Turks and Armenians to start their dialog, improve their living standards; Turkey as a member and Armenia as the neighbour to Europe. (I skipped that part not to reveal what I wrote is actually someone's speech) Of course, he does not say it is all others fault. Actually, as far as I understand from his speeches and writings, he is not after finding the "guilty", making headcounts, searching historical documents in which you can find "proofs" for any claim. He just wanted Turks to learn what happened, start the Turkish-Armenians dialog, and the rest will come along, whatever it would be.

Isn't it ironic? Hrant Dink's murder/death? He is a subject in this forum as well, someone whose murdering comments are followed by "savage Turks, get back to Mongolia", while he never said nasty things about Turks, oppositely, protested international pressure of AG recognition openly saying that "this is a problem of two nations, not Americans' or Europeans' ". In most of his speeches he emphasized that he is an Armenian but Turkish citizen and he wants good for both sides, not forgetting the past tragedy but not allowing his pain to cloud the future for both Turkish and Armenians. Meanwhile, killed by a Turk for his article which was actually cricitizing diaspora Armenians to be obsessed with AG. Then him being used by the same people that he criticizes (both Armenians and Turkish) to make their propaganda, which is nothing in the direction of what he was preaching when he was alive. You will see comments under video that I sent saying nasty things about his death just because he is Armenian, or find treads in this forum people protesting his death by cursing back to Turks and wishing to get rid of them.

Hrans Dink certainly made not some people but everybody uncomfortable with what he said. So I do not trust the crocodile tears (is this expression valid for English too?) from both sides. He was a barrier for the political parties involved with his a dialog oriented, solution aiming attitude.

I think I am completely out of the context (actually, am I really?) So Alexandros, you do not need to engage in discussion and risk for being called a Turk (an insult like no other for some people here). Let people find the guilty whoever they want. I am becoming really pessimistic about whether these discussion will lead anything real.

may, the discussion can be prolonged.
A child throws a stone at a window, watched by his father........who's to blame and who's responsible? The father has responsibility and the child cannot be blameless. A silly anology (?). I thought you might understand that "turks are to blame" does not mean the same as "all turks are to blame".
Pretty simple really. Perhaps I should have listed by name, all the murderers,plunderers and rapists.
Alexandros seems to have a puritanical view of the Genocide. "The ottoman soldiers and kurdish gangs raped and killed, deported and kidnapped whilst the turkish population at large watched on in horror." No, may, ordinary people were involved, de-sensitised by years of propaganda, pogroms, massacres and yes, hardship. The accounts by eyewitnesses and survivors attest to such. Logic tells us that too. Righteous Turks were very few and far between and saved precious few Armenians.
Am I turcophobic? Yes, I boycott turkey in each and every way I can. Can I discuss with individuals? Yes of course I can, will there be any result from such discussions? Who knows.

[Alexandros]

Re: Who was responsible for orchestrating the 1915 Armenian genocide?

Accused by you of not reading your posts, I'm not expecting the nazis to have returned to power. My point is/was that at the end of WW2, no German would admit to have being a nazi, a member of the party, a factory owner using slave labour, a farmer using slave labour,a school principal throwing at joodish teachers,the participants in Kristallnacht a loco driver driving the cattle trucks full of people to extermination camps............et al.
Alexandros, where did these people come from and return to? Normal everyday life, and pretty much the same in the years 1915-23. Ordinary people brainwashed and conditioned, but ordinary goddamned people.










Missed this question previously................That statement doesn't need an "if" before it. It's been said many times and I believe that ASALA were misguided in their actions, if for no other reason that Genocide Denialists and Genocide Apologists use the "fear of Armenian terror" as the cause of the AG & it's still in use today with the references to ASALA.

Whole people.........no, I don't blame the very few turks who saved a very few Armenians.

of itself, a regime can do nothing, it needs people to carry out it's plans.



okay.




The continued denial of Genocide, the continued actions against Armenia & Armenians whether direct or indirect are latter stages of the same Genocide.
I believe in Recognition & Restitution...........probably never see it but definitely won't see Resolution, which is perhaps your goal.

Accused by you of not reading your posts, I'm not expecting the nazis to have returned to power. My point is/was that at the end of WW2, no German would admit to have being a nazi, a member of the party, a factory owner using slave labour, a farmer using slave labour,a school principal throwing at joodish teachers,the participants in Kristallnacht a loco driver driving the cattle trucks full of people to extermination camps............et al.
Alexandros, where did these people come from and return to? Normal everyday life, and pretty much the same in the years 1915-23. Ordinary people brainwashed and conditioned, but ordinary goddamned people.

Well, that is the problem you have to explain.How come there are NAZI parties TODAY in Germany that are elected democratically to the regional assemblies?That`s also a question you have to ask yourself.Does this mean that all or a majority of the Germans are NAZI`s?Of course not.But that is the conclusion you seem to reach for some strange reason.Being a member of the NAZI`s back then was very common at that time.Does that mean that the German people at that time are responsible for what Hitler did?

Missed this question previously................That statement doesn't need an "if" before it. It's been said many times and I believe that ASALA were misguided in their actions, if for no other reason that Genocide Denialists and Genocide Apologists use the "fear of Armenian terror" as the cause of the AG & it's still in use today with the references to ASALA.

But you are avoiding my question.Let`s see if you if you will answer it again:

how would you reacted if I or anyone else wrote like this:

"The ASALA committed some despicable terror acts against Turkish diplomats...etc but THE BLAME rests with Armenians."

"But the blame rests with the Armenians", do you agree with that?Yes or No?

Compare that to what wrote in your post:

Originally Posted by hrai
Europeans have some responsibilities but may, THE BLAME rests with turks.
That blame cannot be diluted or dissolved.

You see my point?

Whole people.........no,

WOW!Have you started to come to your senses?

I don't blame the very few turks who saved a very few Armenians.

And why should you?

of itself, a regime can do nothing, it needs people to carry out it's plans.

Your question was:

Do you believe turks are to blame for the AG?

And my answer was:

I would blame the Ottoman regime and not the Turkish people.

Since you on the one hand you want to blame the whole Turkish people for the Genocide and on the other hand you don`t you really have to make up your mind because you just said recently this:

Whole people.........no,

So which is it?The whole people or not?

The continued denial of Genocide, the continued actions against Armenia & Armenians whether direct or indirect are latter stages of the same Genocide.

Ok, but what does todays Turks have to do with the Genocide against the Christians which was orchestrated by the Ottoman regime?Have you made up your mind yet?

I believe in Recognition & Restitution...........probably never see it but definitely won't see Resolution, which is perhaps your goal.

What do you mean it`s my goal?Could you clarify that?First you claimed I had Turkish neighbours(which is nothing wrong to have even if I don`t) and then that I have been listening to too much turkish propaganda and you said also that I remind you of a denialist-apologist and now I`m suddenly against any resolution for Recognition & Restitution?Feel free to explain.

[Alexandros]

Re: Who was responsible for orchestrating the 1915 Armenian genocide?

Am I turcophobic? Yes, I boycott turkey in each and every way I can.

Not surpised at all.

[hrai]

Re: Who was responsible for orchestrating the 1915 Armenian genocide?

Well, that is the problem you have to explain.How come there are NAZI parties TODAY in Germany that are elected democratically to the regional assemblies?

I'm not talking about today's Germany. I'm using Germany during and immediately after WW2 as an example.

That`s also a question you have to ask yourself.Does this mean that all or a majority of the Germans are NAZI`s?Of course not.But that is the conclusion you seem to reach for some strange reason.

Another serious misreading of my post (see above)

Being a member of the NAZI`s back then was very common at that time.Does that mean that the German people at that time are responsible for what Hitler did?

Damned right the German people were responsible, gitler did not act alone. The German people were punished, less severely than most wanted at the time, but punished. Roosevelt wanted to push them back to the Dark Ages, interesting as that was gitler's plan for Poland and Russia.
Glad that you agree about membership of the nazi party being very common back then........that was my whole point. And immediately the war was lost, the nazis (very common membership remember) disappeared.

But you are avoiding my question.Let`s see if you if you will answer it again:

how would you reacted if I or anyone else wrote like this:

"The ASALA committed some despicable terror acts against Turkish diplomats...etc but THE BLAME rests with Armenians."

"But the blame rests with the Armenians", do you agree with that?Yes or No?

No, I disagree with that 100%, ASALA were a very small organisation acting completely seperately, with no official support and very little popular support. Their goal was justified but their means to that goal not.

Since you on the one hand you want to blame the whole Turkish people for the Genocide and on the other hand you don`t you really have to make up your mind because you just said recently this:

Once more, the turkish people are to blame except for the miniscule minority who saved Armenians.......understand now???????

Ok, but what does todays Turks have to do with the Genocide against the Christians which was orchestrated by the Ottoman regime?Have you made up your mind yet?

Continued denial of, pursuance of, profit from, the Armenian and other Christian Genocides. The actions by turkish military/government, and the acceptance of these actions by the turkish masses, against turkey's current minorities, eg kurds, highlights the FACT that there is the very same attitudes in turkey today as when the hamidi/ottoman/nationalist atrocities were taking place. The actions of azerbaboons against Armenians clearly shows what would happen if turkey thought it could get away with it.

What do you mean it`s my goal?Could you clarify that?First you claimed I had Turkish neighbours(which is nothing wrong to have even if I don`t) and then that I have been listening to too much turkish propaganda and you said also that I remind you of a denialist-apologist and now I`m suddenly against any resolution for Recognition & Restitution?Feel free to explain.

Read my posts, I never claimed your neighbours were anything (although now I feel a certain sympathy for them).
As regards my view of you as a denialist/apologist, that is based on your comments made today.
Your ridiculous claim that only ottoman soldiers and kurdish gangs committed the Genocide. Your mention of Armenian terrorists. Your view that turks have no responsibility now.
Recognition............Must happen
Restitution.............Must happen
Resolution..............Never will happen
NOT resolution for Recognition.
Resolution appears to be your goal, your comment as to how turkish readers would feel about my posts....."Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn"
Recognition must happen, Restitution must happen and both before and after
there will never be a resolution, if you think there will, you're in cloud-cuckoo land. Too much blood has been spilt, the wounds run too deep.

[TomServo]

Re: Who was responsible for orchestrating the 1915 Armenian genocide?

it's wrong to put the blame on an individual.

But in this case, you are vermin and not the Armenian people.

[Alexandros]

Re: Who was responsible for orchestrating the 1915 Armenian genocide?

I'm not talking about today's Germany. I'm using Germany during and immediately after WW2 as an example.


Another serious misreading of my post (see above)
Damned right the German people were responsible, gitler did not act alone. The German people were punished, less severely than most wanted at the time, but punished. Roosevelt wanted to push them back to the Dark Ages, interesting as that was gitler's plan for Poland and Russia.
Glad that you agree about membership of the nazi party being very common back then........that was my whole point. And immediately the war was lost, the nazis (very common membership remember) disappeared.

No, I disagree with that 100%, ASALA were a very small organisation acting completely seperately, with no official support and very little popular support. Their goal was justified but their means to that goal not.

Once more, the turkish people are to blame except for the miniscule minority who saved Armenians.......understand now???????

Continued denial of, pursuance of, profit from, the Armenian and other Christian Genocides. The actions by turkish military/government, and the acceptance of these actions by the turkish masses, against turkey's current minorities, eg kurds, highlights the FACT that there is the very same attitudes in turkey today as when the hamidi/ottoman/nationalist atrocities were taking place. The actions of azerbaboons against Armenians clearly shows what would happen if turkey thought it could get away with it.

Read my posts, I never claimed your neighbours were anything (although now I feel a certain sympathy for them).
As regards my view of you as a denialist/apologist, that is based on your comments made today.
Your ridiculous claim that only ottoman soldiers and kurdish gangs committed the Genocide. Your mention of Armenian terrorists. Your view that turks have no responsibility now.
Recognition............Must happen
Restitution.............Must happen
Resolution..............Never will happen
NOT resolution for Recognition.
Resolution appears to be your goal, your comment as to how turkish readers would feel about my posts....."Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn"
Recognition must happen, Restitution must happen and both before and after
there will never be a resolution, if you think there will, you're in cloud-cuckoo land. Too much blood has been spilt, the wounds run too deep.

Germany during and immediately after WW2 as an example.

Because the NAZI`s were defeated and Hitler was not alive and USA,Russia and the UK took control of Germany for a certain period of time.That was not exactly the case with Turkey and Ataturk if that is what you are trying to say.And yet, you could still see some Germans voting for some NAZI or far right parties today and some of them even got substantial votes in some regions.Another point that I would like to make, is that the "information society" back in 1914-1923 was not as developed as it was after WW2.People all over the world could see what the NAZI`s had done to the J_e_w_s and their minorities.When the German people saw this on TV or listened to the radio they were horrified.

But what you fail to understand is that you are trying to blame the whole people(have you made up your mind yet?) for Genocides which is wrong to do in my honest opinion.

Another serious misreading of my post (see above)

Not at all. (See above)

Damned right the German people were responsible, gitler did not act alone. The German people were punished, less severely than most wanted at the time, but punished. Roosevelt wanted to push them back to the Dark Ages, interesting as that was gitler's plan for Poland and Russia.

There you go again.Blaming the whole people.Sad.And then you accuse me for misreading your posts.

Glad that you agree about membership of the nazi party being very common back then........that was my whole point. And immediately the war was lost, the nazis (very common membership remember) disappeared.

What do you expect?People were afraid of Hitler.They were brainwashed to hate their minorities until their brains were cleansed after the WW2 and was told about the truth.Let me be clear though, I don`t agree with you by blaming the whole German people for the holocaust which you are doing.

No, I disagree with that 100%, ASALA were a very small organisation acting completely seperately, with no official support and very little popular support. Their goal was justified but their means to that goal not.

Good to see you understood my point - I hope.

Once more, the turkish people are to blame except for the miniscule minority who saved Armenians.......understand now???????

LOL.Are you getting angry?
Try to relax a little.
Once again you show your stance - that is to blame ALL Turks by wording your post the way you did.Or maybe you meant "only" the majority of the Turkish people?

Continued denial of, pursuance of, profit from, the Armenian and other Christian Genocides. The actions by turkish military/government, and the acceptance of these actions by the turkish masses, against turkey's current minorities, eg kurds, highlights the FACT that there is the very same attitudes in turkey today as when the hamidi/ottoman/nationalist atrocities were taking place. The actions of azerbaboons against Armenians clearly shows what would happen if turkey thought it could get away with it.

Relax, I was talking about the "man in the street"(remember?) not the Turkish government or the Turkish military.But hey, it didn`t take long time before you put all eggs in the same basket and went completely off-topic.I`m not surprised, you have become very predictable.

Read my posts, I never claimed your neighbours were anything.

Yes you did and stop lying:

Originally Posted by hrai
In response to your suggestion of using holy water, I posted that would cause sizzling of flesh in ankara........not meaning you live there, but that holy water on devils would cause burning flesh, on the devils next door. ie turks.

http://forum.hyeclub.com/showpost.php?p=261615&postcount=338

And this is also what you said:

Originally Posted by hrai
I could care less whether you live.

http://forum.hyeclub.com/showpost.php?p=261615&postcount=338

WOW!That`s a very nice thing of you to say.

(although now I feel a certain sympathy for them)

Why?Because you changed your mind?

As regards my view of you as a denialist/apologist, that is based on your comments made today.

Then you don`t know me very well.

Your ridiculous claim that only ottoman soldiers and kurdish gangs committed the Genocide.

I gave you a link which makes it very clear that it was only a handful of Turkish civilian that participated in the Genocide against the Christians.It is you who are ridiculous by blaming the whole Turkish and German people for what their Governments did.Again - shame on you!

Your mention of Armenian terrorists.

What?Have you changed your mind - again?This is your words:

No, I disagree with that 100%, ASALA were a very small organisation acting completely seperately, with no official support and very little popular support. Their goal was justified but their means to that goal not.

What exactly is the problem now?Feel free to explain.

Your view that turks have no responsibility now.

Hmmm, you asked me if and let me quote you again since you seem to have a very short memory:

Do you believe today's turks have a responsibility for the AG?

And here`s my answer:

Not at all, how can you even accuse a Turk today for what the Ottoman regime did against the Christians?That would be like blaming the Americans or the Germans living today for what their regimes did against the Native Indians or J_e_w_s and other minorities.Let`s not forget also that the Turks in Turkey are being taught in the schools that there was no Genocide.That`s why we should commend Turks like may,hitite and other Turks for having the courage to recognize the Genocide.

What exactly makes you think that today`s Turks should be responsible for for what the Ottoman regime did against the Christians?Should the Americans who lives today be held responsible for what their regimes did against the Native Indians?

Recognition............Must happen
Restitution.............Must happen
Resolution..............Never will happen
NOT resolution for Recognition.
Resolution appears to be your goal, your comment as to how turkish readers would feel about my posts....."Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn"
Recognition must happen, Restitution must happen and both before and after
there will never be a resolution, if you think there will, you're in cloud-cuckoo land. Too much blood has been spilt, the wounds run too deep.

And why all the anger against me?You have a monologue now.My goal "appears" you say, well you assume too much.We all know that you are Turkophobe which you admitted and I gave you credit for being honest.Maybe you are a "Greekophobe" too.

But seriously, you seem to have a lot of anger issues.Try to calm down a little.It even went so far and let me quote you:

Originally Posted by hrai
I could care less whether you live.

http://forum.hyeclub.com/showpost.ph...&postcount=338

This is only a forum, do you behave like this in reality too?I hope not.

[Eddo211]

Re: Who was responsible for orchestrating the 1915 Armenian genocide?

The leaders of any country or an Empire have always been fully aware of the consequences of their own actions on how deeply those decisions will effects their people and the future generations, specifically on how they will be perceived in the eyes of the world.

The people are ultimately responsible for the actions of their own government specifically if they continue supporting it with its policies in this regard.

Ignorance might be bliss but not an excuse............Honor cannot be given but restored.

The solution cannot come from other peoples understandings but from the fact that a man/a Nation must face its responsibilities and not hide them.

[hrai]

Re: Who was responsible for orchestrating the 1915 Armenian genocide?

Because the NAZI`s were defeated and Hitler was not alive and USA,Russia and the UK took control of Germany for a certain period of time.That was not exactly the case with Turkey and Ataturk if that is what you are trying to say.And yet, you could still see some Germans voting for some NAZI or far right parties today and some of them even got substantial votes in some regions.Another point that I would like to make, is that the "information society" back in 1914-1923 was not as developed as it was after WW2.People all over the world could see what the NAZI`s had done to the J_e_w_s and their minorities.When the German people saw this on TV or listened to the radio they were horrified.

But what you fail to understand is that you are trying to blame the whole people(have you made up your mind yet?) for Genocides which is wrong to do in my honest opinion.



Not at all. (See above)



There you go again.Blaming the whole people.Sad.And then you accuse me for misreading your posts.



What do you expect?People were afraid of Hitler.They were brainwashed to hate their minorities until their brains were cleansed after the WW2 and was told about the truth.Let me be clear though, I don`t agree with you by blaming the whole German people for the holocaust which you are doing.



Good to see you understood my point - I hope.



LOL.Are you getting angry?
Try to relax a little.
Once again you show your stance - that is to blame ALL Turks by wording your post the way you did.Or maybe you meant "only" the majority of the Turkish people?



Relax, I was talking about the "man in the street"(remember?) not the Turkish government or the Turkish military.But hey, it didn`t take long time before you put all eggs in the same basket and went completely off-topic.I`m not surprised, you have become very predictable.



Yes you did and stop lying:



And this is also what you said:



WOW!That`s a very nice thing of you to say.




Why?Because you changed your mind?



Then you don`t know me very well.



I gave you a link which makes it very clear that it was only a handful of Turkish civilian that participated in the Genocide against the Christians.It is you who are ridiculous by blaming the whole Turkish and German people for what their Governments did.Again - shame on you!



What?Have you changed your mind - again?This is your words:



What exactly is the problem now?Feel free to explain.



Hmmm, you asked me if and let me quote you again since you seem to have a very short memory:



And here`s my answer:



What exactly makes you think that today`s Turks should be responsible for for what the Ottoman regime did against the Christians?Should the Americans who lives today be held responsible for what their regimes did against the Native Indians?



And why all the anger against me?You have a monologue now.My goal "appears" you say, well you assume too much.We all know that you are Turkophobe which you admitted and I gave you credit for being honest.Maybe you are a "Greekophobe" too.

But seriously, you seem to have a lot of anger issues.Try to calm down a little.It even went so far and let me quote you:



This is only a forum, do you behave like this in reality too?I hope not.

Cut & paste quotes from my posts at random and out of context.

1. My reference to "the devils next door" is to "next door to Armenia".
2. I refer to Germany during & immediately after WW2, you move timelines to today.
3. Greekophobe??? Where does that come from? Are you Greek? I like Greece and Greeks, but does that mean I like them ALL?
4. You quoted a link proving that only ottoman soldiers and kurdish gangs carried out the trio's orders. Yesterday I was reading a bible site which showed that the Turanian Armenians were the original inhabitants of Armenia, it stated they were originally from Central Asia and perhaps of Mongol heritage. Shall we all go to sprurious sites?
5. When you write trying to absolve the turkish people of blame for the Genocide you ask about Germany and the yoods, but what astonished me was your asking about the USA and native Americans. I've only ever seen that link made by sites such as tall armenian tale and the like. Is that where you do you reading?
6.You accept my position regarding the German people during gitlers power but cannot agree that the turkish people were under the same pressures from their government and acted in pretty much the same way.
7. A people have the government which they deserve, without the people the government is useless, any government needs the support of the masses to govern. A government can enact laws,but for them to be carried out it needs the co-operation and compliance of the people. Without this support, the government is powerless.
8.Any anger I have is caused by someone who takes what they believe to be the moral highground without cause and compunds this by misreading and misquoting posts. It took some time for you to grasp that I was talking about WW2 & immediate post-WW2 Germany, for example.
9. You consistently refer to my blaming ALL turks, I haven't but I do blame turks, can't you see the difference? If not Shame on you.
10. This is only a forum and let's remind each other that you responded with anger to my post originally. You decide that I'm referring to your neighbours (wrong!), you say you're not bothered where I live (boohoo!) you mention my fantasies and your involvement in them(!!!!!!!). You misinterpret my posts, reading what isn't there and then use your mis-interpretation to "quote" me.

[Alexandros]

Re: Who was responsible for orchestrating the 1915 Armenian genocide?

Cut & paste quotes from my posts at random and out of context.

1. My reference to "the devils next door" is to "next door to Armenia".
2. I refer to Germany during & immediately after WW2, you move timelines to today.
3. Greekophobe??? Where does that come from? Are you Greek? I like Greece and Greeks, but does that mean I like them ALL?
4. You quoted a link proving that only ottoman soldiers and kurdish gangs carried out the trio's orders. Yesterday I was reading a bible site which showed that the Turanian Armenians were the original inhabitants of Armenia, it stated they were originally from Central Asia and perhaps of Mongol heritage. Shall we all go to sprurious sites?
5. When you write trying to absolve the turkish people of blame for the Genocide you ask about Germany and the yoods, but what astonished me was your asking about the USA and native Americans. I've only ever seen that link made by sites such as tall armenian tale and the like. Is that where you do you reading?
6.You accept my position regarding the German people during gitlers power but cannot agree that the turkish people were under the same pressures from their government and acted in pretty much the same way.
7. A people have the government which they deserve, without the people the government is useless, any government needs the support of the masses to govern. A government can enact laws,but for them to be carried out it needs the co-operation and compliance of the people. Without this support, the government is powerless.
8.Any anger I have is caused by someone who takes what they believe to be the moral highground without cause and compunds this by misreading and misquoting posts. It took some time for you to grasp that I was talking about WW2 & immediate post-WW2 Germany, for example.
9. You consistently refer to my blaming ALL turks, I haven't but I do blame turks, can't you see the difference? If not Shame on you.
10. This is only a forum and let's remind each other that you responded with anger to my post originally. You decide that I'm referring to your neighbours (wrong!), you say you're not bothered where I live (boohoo!) you mention my fantasies and your involvement in them(!!!!!!!). You misinterpret my posts, reading what isn't there and then use your mis-interpretation to "quote" me.

Cut & paste quotes from my posts at random and out of context.

Not at all.If you read my post - which I doubt you did - I qouted your post so it followed from the start to the end.But then again - I don`t think you read my post carefully and instead your argumets have started to run out so you accuse me for things that are not true.

1. My reference to "the devils next door" is to "next door to Armenia".

Stop lying.That was not what you said.You are doing everything now to try cover up your what you said.I`m going to quote your post again so everybody could see what a racist you are and not only a Turkophobe:

Originally Posted by hrai
In response to your suggestion of using holy water, I posted that would cause sizzling of flesh in ankara........not meaning you live there, but that holy water on devils would cause burning flesh, on the devils next door. ie turks.

http://forum.hyeclub.com/showpost.ph...&postcount=338

And you said this also:

Originally Posted by hrai
I'm talking about turkey, you perhaps live in Turkey may.

http://forum.hyeclub.com/showpost.ph...&postcount=334

Couldn`t be more clear what you said in this case.Stop lying.

2. I refer to Germany during & immediately after WW2, you move timelines to today.

No I didn`t.Again - let me quote what I said since you didn`t read my post carefully and even took it out of context:

Because the NAZI`s were defeated and Hitler was not alive and USA,Russia and the UK took control of Germany for a certain period of time.That was not exactly the case with Turkey and Ataturk if that is what you are trying to say.And yet, you could still see some Germans voting for some NAZI or far right parties today and some of them even got substantial votes in some regions.Another point that I would like to make, is that the "information society" back in 1914-1923 was not as developed as it was after WW2.People all over the world could see what the NAZI`s had done to the J_e_w_s and their minorities.When the German people saw this on TV or listened to the radio they were horrified.

But what you fail to understand is that you are trying to blame the whole people(have you made up your mind yet?) for Genocides which is wrong to do in my honest opinion.

Let me also add the Nuremberg Trials from 1945 to 1946 where all cameras of the world were focused and were the German people could see and listen to all the brutal things that the NAZI`s had done against their minorities not to mention when the TVs showed footages of the "Labour camps" with corpses and so on.That was not really the case with Turkish Courts-Martial of 1919-20.The Turks were not able to see what the CUP had done.There were no TVs and Radios at that time let alone many people were illiterate and couldn`t read what was going on in the newsapapers.Most of the Turks didn`t see the death marches out in the dessert...etc

And after the Ottoman crumbled and King Constantine won the Greek elections he extended the Asia Minor campaign (which was a very stupid thing to do) although he had promised to make peace with Turkey which he didn`t.Kemal Ataturk managed to strengthen the moral of the Turkish troops and unite some of the Turks and Muslims - it was all about protecting the motherland from invadors.Having said that, in wars, very terrible things happens which is not to excuse the Genocide against the Christians.But blaming a whole population(even the current population living today) in a way you did is totally unacceptable and ridiculous.

3. Greekophobe??? Where does that come from? Are you Greek? I like Greece and Greeks,

Yes I am.

but does that mean I like them ALL?

I hope you do - especially me!

4. You quoted a link proving that only ottoman soldiers and kurdish gangs carried out the trio's orders.

So you agreed with me, no?

Yesterday I was reading a bible site which showed that the Turanian Armenians were the original inhabitants of Armenia, it stated they were originally from Central Asia and perhaps of Mongol heritage. Shall we all go to sprurious sites?

Err...you asked me for evidence and I gave you one link with tons of evidence.What is your problem now?You don`t know what to say now and are going off-topic: as usual.

It really strikes me how fast you change your mind.You are full of contradictions.By the way, where`s your evidence that the whole(or the majority) Turkish or German people participated to wipe out their minorites.

5. When you write trying to absolve the turkish people of blame for the Genocide you ask about Germany and the yoods,

But that is the problem with you.You try to put the blame on a whole people.Try to answer my question instead about the today`s Americans and if they are responsible for what their regimes did to the Native Indians instead of repeating the same thing over and over.You sound like broken record.

but what astonished me was your asking about the USA and native Americans. I've only ever seen that link made by sites such as tall armenian tale and the like. Is that where you do you reading?

Not at all but why don`t anwser my question instead of assuming all the time.Should the today`s Americans be blamed for what their regimes did against the Native Indians?Yes or No?If you`re answer is no, then you are hypocrite because you are being selective when it comes to other people.Oh, I forgot, you said you were a Turkophobe.

6.You accept my position regarding the German people during gitlers power

Yes in your fantasies.Where did I agree to blame the whole German people for the holocaust which you are doing all the time?You`re having monologue now again, eh?You`re running out of argumets and doing everything to try to imply that I agree with you.

but cannot agree that the turkish people were under the same pressures from their government and acted in pretty much the same way.

I gave an explanation regarding the German and Turkish people a long time ago and that is you can`t blame a whole people - especially not in their cases - since committing and not committing are to different things.Again, you doing the same thing as some Turkish nationalists and that is to blame all Christians for trying to rebel against the Ottoman state which is not correct.You are parrotting their arguments, and believe me, it doesn`t make you look good.

7. A people have the government which they deserve, without the people the government is useless, any government needs the support of the masses to govern. A government can enact laws,but for them to be carried out it needs the co-operation and compliance of the people. Without this support, the government is powerless.

Well, that would mean that if you and me vote for a "Christian" party that promised to do some positive things and when they get elected they do the exact opposite and start giving orders to the army to massacre the Muslim minorites - that must mean that you and me are also responsible even if this party didn`t mention anything about murdering Muslim minorities and even if you and me are not involved in committing these murders against the Muslim minorities according to your so-called logic.

8.Any anger I have is caused by someone who takes what they believe to be the moral highground without cause and compunds this by misreading and misquoting posts.

Not really.I was being fair with you by quoting your post from the start to the end which I`m doing now too if you haven`t notived that yet.But quite frankly, you have no argumets left and therefore accuse me for things that are simply not true.By the way it is you who are misqouting me and try to cover up your own words and I`m not going to let that happen.

It took some time for you to grasp that I was talking about WW2 & immediate post-WW2 Germany, for example.

Not at all however you could have been more clear in your post but hey, who am I to tell a Turkophobe who thinks the whole(or the majority?have you made up your mind?LOL)German and Turkish people are responsible for what their regimes did to their minorities.Again - shame on you!

9. You consistently refer to my blaming ALL turks, I haven't but I do blame turks, can't you see the difference? If not Shame on you.

Yes you did but the problems is that you want to cover up your words because you can see that it puts you in a bad light so the "better angels inside you" tells you to be a little more moderate and word your posts in a way so it doesn`t get interpreted in a way that people would think that you blame a whole people for a Genocide which heir Government carried with the help of the army.But then there`s a "devil inside you" that thinks you should spew all your anger and frustration against the Turkish and German people and blame them for Genocides.I can see the difference - can you?

It`s interesting though: when I asked you about ASALA and let quote mine and your posts:

Originally Posted by Alexandros

how would you reacted if I or anyone else wrote like this:

"The ASALA committed some despicable terror acts against Turkish diplomats...etc but THE BLAME rests with Armenians."

"But the blame rests with the Armenians", do you agree with that?Yes or No?

Compare that to what wrote in your post:

http://forum.hyeclub.com/showpost.php?p=261682&postcount=22

Originally Posted by hrai

Europeans have some responsibilities but may, THE BLAME rests with turks.
That blame cannot be diluted or dissolved.

http://forum.hyeclub.com/showpost.php?p=261581&postcount=7

And this is your reply:

Originally Posted by hrai

No, I disagree with that 100%, ASALA were a very small organisation acting completely seperately, with no official support and very little popular support. Their goal was justified but their means to that goal not.

http://forum.hyeclub.com/showpost.php?p=261690&postcount=24

If you don`t blame ALL Armenians for what ASALA did and you even said that you are against their means then how could you blame a whole German or Turkish people for what their regime did against their minorities?You see my point now?Just because you vote for a party doesn`t mean you approve everything they do.I mean for Christ sake, not even Israel blame the whole or the majority of the German people for what the NAZI`s did against the J_e_w_s and I haven`t heard Armenia blaming the whole or the majority of the Turkish people for what the Ottoman regime did against the Armenians.What Armenia and their lobby organizations is demanding is an apology from the Turkish Government - not from the Turkish people!

10. This is only a forum and let's remind each other that you responded with anger to my post originally. You decide that I'm referring to your neighbours (wrong!), you say you're not bothered where I live (boohoo!) you mention my fantasies and your involvement in them(!!!!!!!). You misinterpret my posts, reading what isn't there and then use your mis-interpretation to "quote" me.

It`s your words.Not surprisingly, you try to cover up everything by blaming me for what you said.But I quoted your posts - I even gave direct links to your posts - and that is your words.I`m not going to let you go away with it since you misinterpret my posts, misquote me and try to imply that I agree with you which wasn`t the case as I said above.You have no arguments left, your anger has taken over completely and you change your mind all the time and then blame me for what you said.Great strategy genious but it won`t work - not this time!

[hrai]

Re: Who was responsible for orchestrating the 1915 Armenian genocide?

Not surpised at all.

Good.