Who was responsible for orchestrating the 1915 Armenian genocide?

[hrai]

Re: Who was responsible for orchestrating the 1915 Armenian genocide?

How wrong you are - AGAIN!The Turkish people didn`t commit the genocide against the Christians: It was the Turkish soldiers and Kurdish gangs that was ordered by the Ottoman government to wipe out the Christians.Be careful the next time with your generalizations.




What does a baker have in common with a SS guard?Were there some Turkish civilian who participated in the Genocide against the Christians?Probably so.But your post makes it sound as this Genocide was committed by ALL Turks which is not correct because there were also some Turks who saved Christians from the Genocide.

ONCE AGAIN, you misquote me, I never said all turks. I said turks. Show me evidence that only turkish soldiers and kurdish gangs committed the Genocide.
But it seems to me that you've been listening to too much turkish propaganda.
Was the SS guard born as an SS guard ? No! He was a normal man in the street,perhaps even a baker, as were the turks who fell upon Armenians in the streets of Bitlis,Erzerum and cities,towns and villages throughout Armenia.
The example I gave of the baker etc. was to highlight that ordinary people acted in a most unordinary way to commit the AG. Many factors contributed to this, not least the call to jihad and the role played by imams to incite muslims to destroy the gavours.
Please don't expect me to excuse the turkish people simply because a handful acted to save a handful of Armenians.
Were the Armenian women & children taken into turkish harems saved? No, this was a constituent part of the Genocide, women to be raped and children to be converted to muslim. Another part of the planned destruction of a race.
BTW, the Genocide didn't end with the collapse of the ottoman empire, ataturk & his nationalists continued it and do so to this day.
Your reading of my posts shows that you hear but don't listen.

[Alexandros]

Re: Who was responsible for orchestrating the 1915 Armenian genocide?

ONCE AGAIN, you misquote me, I never said all turks. I said turks. Show me evidence that only turkish soldiers and kurdish gangs committed the Genocide.
But it seems to me that you've been listening to too much turkish propaganda.
Was the SS guard born as an SS guard ? No! He was a normal man in the street,perhaps even a baker, as were the turks who fell upon Armenians in the streets of Bitlis,Erzerum and cities,towns and villages throughout Armenia.
The example I gave of the baker etc. was to highlight that ordinary people acted in a most unordinary way to commit the AG. Many factors contributed to this, not least the call to jihad and the role played by imams to incite muslims to destroy the gavours.
Please don't expect me to excuse the turkish people simply because a handful acted to save a handful of Armenians.
Were the Armenian women & children taken into turkish harems saved? No, this was a constituent part of the Genocide, women to be raped and children to be converted to muslim. Another part of the planned destruction of a race.
BTW, the Genocide didn't end with the collapse of the ottoman empire, ataturk & his nationalists continued it and do so to this day.
Your reading of my posts shows that you hear but don't listen.

ONCE AGAIN, you misquote me, I never said all turks. I said turks. Show me evidence that only turkish soldiers and kurdish gangs committed the Genocide.

No I didn`t.It was you who misqouted me.Let me remind you what I said:

Were there some Turkish civilian who participated in the Genocide against the Christians?Probably so.

You said Turks?Ok, and then you go on and say and I`m quoting you:

The soldier, shopkeeper,cafe owner, farmer, baker,cook, the man in the street. The ordinary people carried out orders, but carried them out nontheless.

So try to clarify "The ordinary people carried out orders" vs the "Turks" remark?

But it seems to me that you've been listening to too much turkish propaganda.

Oh really, are you also going going to call me a "Turk" too since in your fantasies maybe my neighbours are Turks?

Was the SS guard born as an SS guard ? No! He was a normal man in the street,perhaps even a baker, as were the turks who fell upon Armenians in the streets of Bitlis,Erzerum and cities,towns and villages throughout Armenia.

No, but who was born as a murderer?Your post however mixes soldiers with the "ordinary people" or "the man in the street" (your words) in a way which makes it sound that ALL Turks were responsible for the Genocide.

The example I gave of the baker etc. was to highlight that ordinary people acted in a most unordinary way to commit the AG.

Again, the way you worded your post didn`t sound like that at all.

Many factors contributed to this, not least the call to jihad and the role played by imams to incite muslims to destroy the gavours.

I agree with the bold text however it was only a very small minority of the civilian population that followed these "orders".

Please don't expect me to excuse the turkish people simply because a handful acted to save a handful of Armenians.

Neither have I said that you should but there you go again.You are blaming the whole people by saying and I quote you: "the turkish people".

Were the Armenian women & children taken into turkish harems saved? No, this was a constituent part of the Genocide, women to be raped and children to be converted to muslim. Another part of the planned destruction of a race.

I`m talking about some Turkish civilian saving Christians.Not about the systematic desctruction of the Christian population in Minor Asia.Why is that so hard to understand?

BTW, the Genocide didn't end with the collapse of the ottoman empire, ataturk & his nationalists continued it and do so to this day.

Ataturk did in a interview recognize the Genocide against the Christians by blaming the Young Turks however he said nothing about his own actions against the Greek Pontians in northern Turkey - let alone what later happened to the Kurds who had been promised "gold and green forests" but wasn`t given anything after Ataturk founded the Turkish Republic.

Your reading of my posts shows that you hear but don't listen.

I read them carefully, the question is if you want to listen to a person who you cared less was alive or not.

[Alexandros]

Re: Who was responsible for orchestrating the 1915 Armenian genocide?

And one more thing hrai:

how would you reacted if I or anyone else wrote like this:

"The ASALA committed some despicable terror acts against Turkish diplomats...etc but THE BLAME rests with Armenians."

[hrai]

Re: Who was responsible for orchestrating the 1915 Armenian genocide?

Oh really, are you also going going to call me a "Turk" too since in your fantasies maybe my neighbours are Turks?

Hate to disappoint but you don't figure in my fantasies.

No, but who was born as a murderer?Your post however mixes soldiers with the "ordinary people" or "the man in the street" (your words) in a way which makes it sound that ALL Turks were responsible for the Genocide.

No-one was "born a murderer" not even talaat.
There in bold is your interpretation of what I wrote.
All turks weren't responsible for the Genocide, but turks were, the turkish people were.
If you believe it was carried out just by soldiers (recruited BTW from the ordinary people) and kurdish gangs, you've misinterpreted a hell of a lot more than just my posts.

I agree with the bold text however it was only a very small minority of the civilian population that followed these "orders".

Do you have facts for that statement? Or do you rely on turks saying "my grandparents weren't involved"? Because somebody's grandparents, and a hell of a lot of them, were bloody well involved!

I lived in Germany and there were no nazis after May 1945, who voted for gitler? Who carried out his orders? who questioned where the yoods,gipsies,disabled,mentally ill, homos went? No-one, because they knew, just like the turks knew what was happening in Armenia and the ottoman-occupied lands.

I`m talking about Turkish civilian saving Christians.Not about the systematic desctruction of the Christian population in Minor Asia.Why is that so hard to understand?

Because obviously we'll agree to disagree, I say that the turkish people were instrumental in carrying out the AG. There were a handful of exceptions where righteous Turks saved Armenians and other Christians through no other reason than that they were decent humans. However, these decent Turks were by far, a very very small minority.

Ataturk did in a interview recognize the Genocide against the Christians by blaming the Young Turks however he said nothing about his own actions against the Greek Pontians in northern Turkey - let alone what later happened to the Kurds who had been promised "gold and green forests" but wasn`t given anything after Ataturk founded the Turkish Republic.

Of course ataturk knew about the AG, he was a member of CUP, he was aware of what was happening because a political beast such as he, would be aware of all actions regarding his country and possible future political opponents. He was also aware of the continued Genocide against the Armenian people and other Christians, as he was in charge of it!
ataturk was present in Smyrna and ordered the destruction of first the Armenian quarter and then the Greek. He ordered his nationalist forces to destroy Armenians where-ever found and his goal was the obliteration of Armenia.

I read them carefully, the question is if you want to listen to a person who you could cared less was alive or not.

boo-hoo-hoo.
I'll discuss and listen to you, Alexandros, if you have to resort to insult though, it becomes pointless.

[Alexandros]

Re: Who was responsible for orchestrating the 1915 Armenian genocide?

Hate to disappoint but you don't figure in my fantasies.



No-one was "born a murderer" not even talaat.
There in bold is your interpretation of what I wrote.
All turks weren't responsible for the Genocide, but turks were, the turkish people were.
If you believe it was carried out just by soldiers (recruited BTW from the ordinary people) and kurdish gangs, you've misinterpreted a hell of a lot more than just my posts.




Do you have facts for that statement? Or do you rely on turks saying "my grandparents weren't involved"? Because somebody's grandparents, and a hell of a lot of them, were bloody well involved!

I lived in Germany and there were no nazis after May 1945, who voted for gitler? Who carried out his orders? who questioned where the yoods,gipsies,disabled,mentally ill, homos went? No-one, because they knew, just like the turks knew what was happening in Armenia and the ottoman-occupied lands.

Because obviously we'll agree to disagree, I say that the turkish people were instrumental in carrying out the AG. There were a handful of exceptions where righteous Turks saved Armenians and other Christians through no other reason than that they were decent humans. However, these decent Turks were by far, a very very small minority.



Of course ataturk knew about the AG, he was a member of CUP, he was aware of what was happening because a political beast such as he, would be aware of all actions regarding his country and possible future political opponents. He was also aware of the continued Genocide against the Armenian people and other Christians, as he was in charge of it!
ataturk was present in Smyrna and ordered the destruction of first the Armenian quarter and then the Greek. He ordered his nationalist forces to destroy Armenians where-ever found and his goal was the obliteration of Armenia.



boo-hoo-hoo.
I'll discuss and listen to you, Alexandros, if you have to resort to insult though, it becomes pointless.

Hate to disappoint but you don't figure in my fantasies.

You broke my heart now.

No-one was "born a murderer" not even talaat.
There in bold is your interpretation of what I wrote.
All turks weren't responsible for the Genocide,

I would had agreed with you if didn`t continue your post by writing this:

but turks were, the turkish people were.

1+1=3? Seriously, can`t you see the contradicition?

If you believe it was carried out just by soldiers (recruited BTW from the ordinary people) and kurdish gangs,

You are extremely obsessed by trying to point out "the ordinary people" remark which proves my point.

you've misinterpreted a hell of a lot more than just my posts.

Huh?You have already confessed that you are "probably a Turkophobe".Your words, not mine.You really think I`m going to take a "Turkophobe" seriously in this debate?Come on...

Do you have facts for that statement? Or do you rely on turks saying "my grandparents weren't involved"? Because somebody's grandparents, and a hell of a lot of them, were bloody well involved!

Tons of evidence that it was Ottoman regime that was behind it and gave the orders to the soldiers and Kurdish gangs and NOT THE MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE that participated in the Genocide against the Christians:

http://www.genocidetext.net/iags_resolution_supporting_documentation.htm

And one more thing, let`s say you were right - should the Turkish people that lives today in Turkey be also be held responsible for what the Ottoman regime did against the Christians?

I lived in Germany and there were no nazis after May 1945, who voted for gitler? Who carried out his orders? who questioned where the yoods,gipsies,disabled,mentally ill, homos went? No-one, because they knew, just like the turks knew what was happening in Armenia and the ottoman-occupied lands.

What exactly are you trying to say?There are NAZI parties in Germany, some even got substantial votes in some regions of Germany.But then again, the Turks are missinformed about the Genocide against the Christians; they don`t mention anything about this in their history books.Germany on the other hand has taken their responsibility to recognize the holocaust and they mention about it in German history books, the horrific things that the NAZI`s did to the minorities while Turkey has done everything to cover the Genocide against the Christians under the carpet.

Because obviously we'll agree to disagree, I say that the turkish people were instrumental in carrying out the AG. There were a handful of exceptions where righteous Turks saved Armenians and other Christians through no other reason than that they were decent humans. However,
these decent Turks were by far, a very very small minority.

Well, I disagree with that.It was the Ottoman regime who orchestrated the whole thing by giving orders to their army and Kurdish gangs to wipe out the Christians.Some Turkish civilian participated but if you look at the whole picture, it was a only a small minority of the civilian population that participated in the Genocide against the Christians.You remind me of some Turkish nationalists who thinks that ALL Christians got what they deserved because they ALL rebelled against the Ottoman state which is far from the truth.

Of course ataturk knew about the AG, he was a member of CUP, he was aware of what was happening because a political beast such as he, would be aware of all actions regarding his country and possible future political opponents. He was also aware of the continued Genocide against the Armenian people and other Christians, as he was in charge of it!
ataturk was present in Smyrna and ordered the destruction of first the Armenian quarter and then the Greek. He ordered his nationalist forces to destroy Armenians where-ever found and his goal was the obliteration of Armenia.

I agree with you on this one.

boo-hoo-hoo.
I'll discuss and listen to you, Alexandros, if you have to resort to insult though, it becomes pointless.

Really?But then again, I have diffcult to take you seriously since you "are probably a Turkophobe"(your words, not mine).Would you take a person seriously if he/she was "probably an Armenianphobe" and if you were debating about the Armenian Genocide with that person?

Anyway, I tried to be fair in this debate by agreeing with you where I thought you were right.Nothing more to add here.

[hrai]

Re: Who was responsible for orchestrating the 1915 Armenian genocide?


If I'm obsessed by anything it is the guilt of turks for the AG in all it's stages, including it's continuing denial. I do not believe ALL turks are/were responsible. But I shall believe until my dying day that the people responsible for the attempted destruction of a nation were more numerous than you try to portray.

Huh?You have already confessed that you are "probably a Turkophobe".Your words, not mine.You really think I`m going to take a "Turkophobe" seriously in this debate?Come on...

Are you surprised to meet a turcophobe here? Do you consider it something to confess?. Should I lurk in the shadows and whisper about the AG?

Tons of evidence that it was Ottoman regime that was behind it and gave the orders to the soldiers and Kurdish gangs and NOT THE MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE that participated in the Genocide against the Christians:

http://www.genocidetext.net/iags_resolution_supporting_documentation.htm

Shout as much as you wish, turks were involved, turks profitted from it, turks are to blame (going back to the original question), turks continue to deny it..
Is there a lie above? Do I say all turks? No. But not a minority of turks.

And one more thing, let`s say you were right - should the Turkish people that lives today in Turkey be also be held responsible for what the Ottoman regime did against the Christians?

Yes. Do you?

What exactly are you trying to say?There are NAZI parties in Germany, some even got a substantial vote in some regions of Germany.But then again, the Turks are missinformed about the Genocide against the Christians.They don`t mention anything about this in the history books.Germany has taken their responsibility to recognize the holocaust and they mention about it in German history books, the horrific things that the NAZI`s did to the minorities while Turkey has done everything to cover the Genocide against the Christians under the carpet.

What I was trying to say here was that once defeated, Germany had no nazis, they'd all disappeared back into their farms, baker shops, cafes and wondered how the hell gitler got into power. I suppose it was just a minority of Germans, the German army & SS and Ukrainian & Lithuanian gangs.
The German police units who were transferred to Poland/Belarus and became killing gangs were prior to WW2 "ordinary policemen"
Ordinary people twisted into beasts by the regime in place....such as happened in ottoman empire........such as happened in Rwanda, Bosnia,....ordinary people.

Well, I disagree with that.It was the Ottoman regime who orchestrated the whole thing by giving orders to their army and Kurdish gangs to wipe out the Christians.Some Turkish civilian participated but if you look at the whole picture, it was a only a small minority of the civilian population that participated in the Genocide against the Christians.You remind me of some Turkish nationalists who thinks that ALL Christians got what they deserved because they ALL rebelled against the Ottoman state which is far from the truth.

You remind me of a denialist-apologist.
You keep harping on about the use of ALL, I never used it, you said earlier it was your interpretation.

Really?But then again, I have diffcult to take you seriously since you "are probably a Turkophobe".Would you take a person seriously if he/she was "Armenianphobe"?

Again, being a turcophobe is someone who shouldn't be taken seriously.
Shall I apologise for what turks did/do?
I would more take an Armenophobe seriously than someone who "interprets" facts as they wish. I would know where I stand with an Armenophobe.

So, straightforward questions.........
Do you believe turks are to blame for the AG?
Do you believe today's turkey has a responsibility for the AG?
Do you believe today's turks have a responsibility for the AG?

Yes or no answers would be fine. (My answers are yes to all 3)

[Alexandros]

Re: Who was responsible for orchestrating the 1915 Armenian genocide?

If I'm obsessed by anything it is the guilt of turks for the AG in all it's stages, including it's continuing denial. I do not believe ALL turks are/were responsible. But I shall believe until my dying day that the people responsible for the attempted destruction of a nation were more numerous than you try to portray.



Are you surprised to meet a turcophobe here? Do you consider it something to confess?. Should I lurk in the shadows and whisper about the AG?



Shout as much as you wish, turks were involved, turks profitted from it, turks are to blame (going back to the original question), turks continue to deny it..
Is there a lie above? Do I say all turks? No. But not a minority of turks.

Yes. Do you?



What I was trying to say here was that once defeated, Germany had no nazis, they'd all disappeared back into their farms, baker shops, cafes and wondered how the hell gitler got into power. I suppose it was just a minority of Germans, the German army & SS and Ukrainian & Lithuanian gangs.
The German police units who were transferred to Poland/Belarus and became killing gangs were prior to WW2 "ordinary policemen"
Ordinary people twisted into beasts by the regime in place....such as happened in ottoman empire........such as happened in Rwanda, Bosnia,....ordinary people.



You remind me of a denialist-apologist.
You keep harping on about the use of ALL, I never used it, you said earlier it was your interpretation.

Again, being a turcophobe is someone who shouldn't be taken seriously.
Shall I apologise for what turks did/do?
I would more take an Armenophobe seriously than someone who "interprets" facts as they wish. I would know where I stand with an Armenophobe.

So, straightforward questions.........
Do you believe turks are to blame for the AG?
Do you believe today's turkey has a responsibility for the AG?
Do you believe today's turks have a responsibility for the AG?

Yes or no answers would be fine. (My answers are yes to all 3)

If I'm obsessed by anything it is the guilt of turks for the AG in all it's stages, including it's continuing denial. I do not believe ALL turks are/were responsible. But I shall believe until my dying day that the people responsible for the attempted destruction of a nation were more numerous than you try to portray.

It`s getting better but I still disagree with you.

Are you surprised to meet a turcophobe here? Do you consider it something to confess?. Should I lurk in the shadows and whisper about the AG?

It was your words not mine - and I`m not going to generalize by painting all Armenians as "Turkophobes" because they aren`t.At least you`re honest, I give you that.On the other hand you lose your credibility by being a "Turkophobe" in a Genocide discussion - especially in a discussion like this one.

Shout as much as you wish, turks were involved, turks profitted from it, turks are to blame (going back to the original question), turks continue to deny it.. Is there a lie above? Do I say all turks? No. But not a minority of turks.

Aha, now we are back to the "shopkeeper,cafe owner, farmer, baker,cook, the man in the street. The ordinary people carried out orders..." comments.Sad, I was about to give you the benefit of doubt.

Yes. Do you?

Which proves my point - AGAIN!I wonder what may, hitite and other Turks say when they read your comments.Oppps, I forgot, you said you were "probably a Turkophobe".(your words, not mine)

What I was trying to say here was that once defeated, Germany had no nazis, they'd all disappeared back into their farms, baker shops, cafes and wondered how the hell gitler got into power. I suppose it was just a minority of Germans, the German army & SS and Ukrainian & Lithuanian gangs.
The German police units who were transferred to Poland/Belarus and became killing gangs were prior to WW2 "ordinary policemen"

Of course not, because Germany was split between USA,Russia and the UK if I remember correctly for a certain time.You really think they would had allowed the NAZI`s to gain power after defeating them?Then again, you are trying to make it sound as all Germans were directly responsible for the holocaust.How can you even claim that?Seriously - shame on you!

Ordinary people twisted into beasts by the regime in place....such as happened in ottoman empire........such as happened in Rwanda, Bosnia,....ordinary people.

Here you go again, you have to make a difference of those committing the genocide and those who did not.Why is that so difficult to understand?Shall I blame ALL Americans for what their army did to the Native Indians?Can`t you see the difference?

You remind me of a denialist-apologist.
You keep harping on about the use of ALL, I never used it, you said earlier it was your interpretation.

You never used it but the "shopkeeper,cafe owner, farmer, baker,cook, the man in the street. The ordinary people.." comments and now even the Turkish people living today in Turkey should be blamed for the Genocide the Ottoman regime committed against the Christians according to you.Where is the logic?

And by the way you didn`t answer my question; let me repeat it again:

how would you reacted if I or anyone else wrote like this:

"The ASALA committed some despicable terror acts against Turkish diplomats...etc but THE BLAME rests with Armenians."

I`m still waiting for an answer.

Again, being a turcophobe is someone who shouldn't be taken seriously.

Especially not in a discussion like this one.Sometimes you make sense.

Shall I apologise for what turks did/do?

No, and I haven`t said you should - this is by the way the second time I tell you this.Do you really read my posts or are you just trolling now?However what you shouldn`t do is to blame a whole people for a Genocide since that is pretty much the same argument some nationalist Turks uses against the Christians; they think that the Christians got what they deserved because ALL rebelled against the Ottoman state, do you understand what I`m trying to say?

I would more take an Armenophobe seriously than someone who "interprets" facts as they wish. I would know where I stand with an Armenophobe.

That would be an easy debate for you then: "Turkophobe" vs "Armenianphobe".

So, straightforward questions.........

Do you believe turks are to blame for the AG?

I would blame the Ottoman regime and not the Turkish people.

Do you believe today's turkey has a responsibility for the AG?

I think the Turkish government(s) must take their responsibility to face the dark chapters of their history.

Do you believe today's turks have a responsibility for the AG?

Not at all, how can you even accuse a Turk today for what the Ottoman regime did against the Christians?That would be like blaming the Americans or the Germans living today for what their regimes did against the Native Indians or J_e_w_s and other minorities.Let`s not forget also that the Turks in Turkey are being taught in the schools that there was no Genocide.That`s why we should commend Turks like may,hitite and other Turks for having the courage to recognize the Genocide.

[may]

Re: Who was responsible for orchestrating the 1915 Armenian genocide?

Are the Turks only to blame for what happened? For instance, did the Europeans have some responsibility as well? Do you think we should ask this question to ourselves? I think, yes, we should. If we ask this about past, we can better determine what we can do today more clearly. We all have responsibilities, Europeans too, have some responsibilities for this tragedy. But now, we have ways to cure this wound.

Turkey may look dark, pessimistic, fundamentally religious, nationalist when you look from outside. I am coming from this country, but this country is not a dark place. It is enlightning and we are trying to help this enlightment.

Turks and Armenians must face each other, understand each other, face the history, break the lock and get over it.

Europeans have some responsibilities but may, THE BLAME rests with turks.
That blame cannot be diluted or dissolved.

Hi Hrai,

The paragraph I wrote above are not my words. These are said by Hrant Dink in Europe to the European crowd after he got an award. Not that I do not agree or whatever Hrant Dink says is correct, these are not the reasons I posted it. Actually I was expecting responses as "you Turks always distracting the subject, diverting the blame, you are reading your history books and bullshiiting here" etc. The response you gave was, personally speaking, highly unexpected. I think while I tried to bait some people here to show their ironic brainwashed attitude while claiming all Turks are brainwashed, I got the bait myself As a matter of fact, I still think I should wait for responses I expect to hear instead of writing this explanation, but I want to call it off.

Here is the video I am talking about: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PL9Xi...eature=related

What I wrote above was almost one-to-one translation of what he said between 2:43-4:01 and 5:00-5:10. He thanks for the award and says "we writers do not make not only some people upset/angry/uncomfortable but everyone. Now, maybe, I'll make you a bit upset/angry/uncomfortable." to the crowd. And in the part I skipped he tells about Eu being an opportunity for both Turks and Armenians to start their dialog, improve their living standards; Turkey as a member and Armenia as the neighbour to Europe. (I skipped that part not to reveal what I wrote is actually someone's speech) Of course, he does not say it is all others fault. Actually, as far as I understand from his speeches and writings, he is not after finding the "guilty", making headcounts, searching historical documents in which you can find "proofs" for any claim. He just wanted Turks to learn what happened, start the Turkish-Armenians dialog, and the rest will come along, whatever it would be.

Isn't it ironic? Hrant Dink's murder/death? He is a subject in this forum as well, someone whose murdering comments are followed by "savage Turks, get back to Mongolia", while he never said nasty things about Turks, oppositely, protested international pressure of AG recognition openly saying that "this is a problem of two nations, not Americans' or Europeans' ". In most of his speeches he emphasized that he is an Armenian but Turkish citizen and he wants good for both sides, not forgetting the past tragedy but not allowing his pain to cloud the future for both Turkish and Armenians. Meanwhile, killed by a Turk for his article which was actually cricitizing diaspora Armenians to be obsessed with AG. Then him being used by the same people that he criticizes (both Armenians and Turkish) to make their propaganda, which is nothing in the direction of what he was preaching when he was alive. You will see comments under video that I sent saying nasty things about his death just because he is Armenian, or find treads in this forum people protesting his death by cursing back to Turks and wishing to get rid of them.

Hrans Dink certainly made not some people but everybody uncomfortable with what he said. So I do not trust the crocodile tears (is this expression valid for English too?) from both sides. He was a barrier for the political parties involved with his a dialog oriented, solution aiming attitude.

I think I am completely out of the context (actually, am I really?) So Alexandros, you do not need to engage in discussion and risk for being called a Turk (an insult like no other for some people here). Let people find the guilty whoever they want. I am becoming really pessimistic about whether these discussion will lead anything real.

[Alexandros]

Re: Who was responsible for orchestrating the 1915 Armenian genocide?

I think I am completely out of the context (actually, am I really?) So Alexandros, you do not need to engage in discussion and risk for being called a Turk (an insult like no other for some people here). Let people find the guilty whoever they want. I am becoming really pessimistic about whether these discussion will lead anything real.

LOL.That`s ok may.I have been called worse things.Ahem...

[hrai]

Re: Who was responsible for orchestrating the 1915 Armenian genocide?

Of course not, because Germany was split between USA,Russia and the UK if I remember correctly for a certain time.You really think they would had allowed the NAZI`s to gain power after defeating them?Then again, you are trying to make it sound as all Germans were directly responsible for the holocaust.How can you even claim that?Seriously - shame on you!

Accused by you of not reading your posts, I'm not expecting the nazis to have returned to power. My point is/was that at the end of WW2, no German would admit to have being a nazi, a member of the party, a factory owner using slave labour, a farmer using slave labour,a school principal throwing at joodish teachers,the participants in Kristallnacht a loco driver driving the cattle trucks full of people to extermination camps............et al.
Alexandros, where did these people come from and return to? Normal everyday life, and pretty much the same in the years 1915-23. Ordinary people brainwashed and conditioned, but ordinary goddamned people.

And by the way you didn`t answer my question; let me repeat it again:

how would you reacted if I or anyone else wrote like this:

"The ASALA committed some despicable terror acts against Turkish diplomats...etc but THE BLAME rests with Armenians."
I`m still waiting for an answer.

Missed this question previously................That statement doesn't need an "if" before it. It's been said many times and I believe that ASALA were misguided in their actions, if for no other reason that Genocide Denialists and Genocide Apologists use the "fear of Armenian terror" as the cause of the AG & it's still in use today with the references to ASALA.

No, and I haven`t said you should - this is by the way the second time I tell you this.Do you really read my posts or are you just trolling now?However what you shouldn`t do is to blame a whole people for a Genocide since that is pretty much the same argument some nationalist Turks uses against the Christians; they think that the Christians got what they deserved because ALL rebelled against the Ottoman state, do you understand what I`m trying to say?

Whole people.........no, I don't blame the very few turks who saved a very few Armenians.

I would blame the Ottoman regime and not the Turkish people.

of itself, a regime can do nothing, it needs people to carry out it's plans.

I think the Turkish government(s) must take their responsibility to face the dark chapters of their history.

okay.

Not at all, how can you even accuse a Turk today for what the Ottoman regime did against the Christians?That would be like blaming the Americans or the Germans living today for what their regimes did against the Native Indians or J_e_w_s and other minorities.Let`s not forget also that the Turks in Turkey are being taught in the schools that there was no Genocide.That`s why we should commend Turks like may,hitite and other Turks for having the courage to recognize the Genocide.

The continued denial of Genocide, the continued actions against Armenia & Armenians whether direct or indirect are latter stages of the same Genocide.
I believe in Recognition & Restitution...........probably never see it but definitely won't see Resolution, which is perhaps your goal.