The sense of loss?

[Sako]

Re: The sense of loss?

Blinded by lies, indifference, busy with the demands of modern living or mild curiosity? Possibly a bit of each but definitely not the immense preoccupation you guys have.

What’s this major preoccupation? Fighting for justice? If so, you’re right, and that’s what we will always fight for unlike your gov. who has the biggest preoccupation … killing our past and our present!

Blamed by who? Is that meant to be an apocalyptic threat? Regardless, my conscious is perfectly clear.

I don’t know how your conscience can be clear when you remember the fact that your grandfathers raped and burned my people. If your consciousness is clear then you’re simply sick. How can you be so artificially indifferent? Your people, and you at one point most definitely, denied everything that happened. Doesn’t that bother you? You’ve done much more, by the way, just a quick wake up call.

The second part of your comment is just disgraceful. It's the equivalent of me saying: when I look at the Armenian majority. Traitors and infidels. Period. It's perpetuating a racist mindset and it's beneath me to engage in such discussions.

That’s not what I meant. What I meant was that AT THE MOMENT, and for the past 100 years, you and your people have been liars and cowards directly and/or indirectly. If you all accept what happened, you won’t be the cowards your grandparents were. That’s what I’m saying and I would be happier then anyone else to see that happen. And just a pointer, you can’t say we were traitors because we WEREN’T. Your nation on the other hand was filled with cowards who still, even after 94 years show their cowardice. I am not happy about this, don’t get the wrong picture!

Forgiven by whom? Are you ordained to forgive?
As I said before, I refuse to sit in judgement of the actions of an event or persons from nearly 100 years ago. If they did wrong then it should have been dealt with at the time. It is nonsense to pass burden around like some olympic torch batton.

You didn’t read my post, AGAIN, it seems. Oh well, here we go again. YES, we are the ones that must forgive YOU and YOUR PEOPLE. Your nation is the criminal … we are the victim. A kindergartener could understand what I’m saying … CLEARLY. Read my posts AGAIN and you might start to understand what I’m saying. I’ve said it all as clearly as I could.

That's a myth. Somethings will certainly be forgotten, every wound will heal ... eventually. No hate, pain, love, anger can last for an eternity. At this moment you choose not to forget or to heal, that's a personal choice of each and every Armenian. Some people enjoy inflicting self pain, anger etc. The mind is a complex beast.

Tell me about it, that’s the kind of beast within the heart of your gov. and many of your people! We know that beast very well, don’t worry. And no, some things are never forgotten. That’s not a myth. It's only a myth for people like you. You will understand that one day. Some things do last forever. Death doesn’t take everything away. But why am I going deeper into this topic, you couldn’t even understand the basic posts I posted. Let’s go back to them, shall we?

And who will collect this supposed debt?

Who do you think??? I didn’t expect such a primitive question from you!

An accessory to the crime, Saco. But aren't you just confirming my point? The law will never prosecute the grandchild of the criminal. So what if the grandchild denies or proclaims the innocence of his predecessors. Does that also make it complicit in the crime? You can pass a moral judgement on that child but under law you will never hold them responsible or ask for compensation. Just like know, if Armenia felt it had a viable case it could try its luck in the International Court in the Hague. You'll probably be laughed out of court though.

Oh, don’t worry, that’s coming very soon. Stay tuned. And to answer your question.

1. The grandchild doesn’t only deny the past but destroys everything that belonged to us.
2. Enjoys our money.
3. Continues a modern genocide.
4. Hides the truth in inhumane ways.

ETC. Do you NOW FINALLY SEE why your people still continue to be blamed or should I start at a more intermediate level? I said all this a hundred times already for God sakes.

Where I come from, every man/woman is responsible for their own actions and deeds.

And where everyone else comes from, there are REAL laws. And you know what, I love your law actually. According to it then, so many Turks need to be trialed because they continue what their ancestors started. So let’s go to court, Turks. Are you ready? And again, I’m not saying YOU alone or personally have to stand in court. The grandchildren won’t pay the same price their grandfathers would have to pay … but they will pay, nonetheless, especially for what they’ve been doing after the AG … for the last 94 years. You seem to think that everything ended in 1923. Everything BEGAN after 1923. Remember that.

Your surviving predecessors should have taken the necessary action for restitution at the appropriate time against those individually responsible, some did with assasinations. But it's not my fault the majority had collective amnesia or lacked the will to do it then.

They were trying but its kinda hard taking necessary steps forward when more then ¾ of your people are dead! Your nation began to hide everything and for that reason we had a hard time doing anything serious. If everything stopped then, you would be able to freely live your lives. But everything continued and still goes on today. Even a kid can understand what I’m saying so I hope you do as well.

Maybe there is a lot I don't know, perhaps you will enlighten me. Or just maybe you've been fed the dreams and lies about what's out there. Have you ever heard of El Dorado?

Could you please describe those lies and dreams please because so far the only lies and dreams that I know of are flying out of your country … the pan turanic dream being one of them ... the El Dorado of your people! (Keep Dreaming, by the way)

[Palavra]

Re: The sense of loss?

I did not say It has relation with AG. I just said, Turks can live at that bloody lands.

[Gavur]

Re: The sense of loss?

Stole? Western armenia was ottoman land. Anyway, what about azeris land? I am sure, You will find some excuse for them. You have no right to teach me ethic. I am against what happened at 1915.(Unlike your support to what happened to armenians.)



If we listen you, It would be a better future for armenians. Anyway, that land is painted by turkish blood too.



Bla bla. Everynation have their blood past. This also include armenians. I do not see you have any problem with armenian support to crusaders. So armenian bloody past wont harm you, I am sure Turkish bloody past wont harm me too.




No, I wont. My people were murdered too..My family fleed from balkans.



I think you are wrong. Every nation have their blood losses. or do you think, armenians were only ones who genocided or ethnic cleansed.



A turkish politician is not more or less evil than armenian one. Politicians are politicians and when It comes to states, we need politicians.



what is the meaning of move on? do you realy need turkish empaty so much that without turkish empaty and their acceptance of AG you cannot move on.

That is funny. Move on guy. You dont need us.




So tell me, which county accepted their own blood past? Should I remind you france law about how magnificient of their past?



I appreciate it. So that is why I do not support Turkish acceptance of AG.



what the hell is trust? I am not aware of fact that trust is such important thing at international politics. Anyway, show me one country which accepted they genocided a nation. Than I can take your serious.



Security.




It is not my past. It is history like turkish, greek, armenian crimes.. What happened is happened. I have no power to change past. I have power to change future and I prefer to support turkish welfare..




Easy. Richness of turkish people freedom of turkish people and security of turkish people.



That is bullxxxx. It is not my people did it. It is ittihatists. Armenians(dashnaks) were supporting them when Ittihatist were rebelled against legitimate sultan. So You cannot accuse my people as colletively.



Wrong. ROA need it. People cannot live with nationalist feelings. They need money. That is why ROA lost half of her population..



Yep. Because ROA needed borders. That is why Turkey closed it.


I do not accused you.



You should read more newspaper and learn who need opening borders. Your macho attitute dont change reality..



We did not steal anything from you. Before 1915 eastern anatolia is ottoman land and after 1915 It is ottoman land.



If we are talking about nations we cannot screw politics. Anyway, ROA is not even accepting border of Turkey so It would be not healty to talk about opening borders when you are not accepting them..




No. Infact, We dont have healty relation because of our conflict with ROA and Your conflicts with azeris.. It has no relation with officials..



You are 50% right I am materialist when It comes to national politic.(%50 wrong, I am not girl.)

You should also become materialist when It comes to politic of your nation. This is how you survive...



No they dont. They are emotional..

Looking for weak spots (holes) in a persons argument unfortunately doesn't make your case any stronger.

[Gavur]

Re: The sense of loss?

If we listen you, It would be a better future for armenians. Anyway, that land is painted by turkish blood too.

Very true, similar to what Dear Gul has stated only it has nothing what so ever to do with the Armenian Genocide.

[Palavra]

Re: The sense of loss?

Turkish benefits? What type of benefits are you talking about? The Land and Money that your people stole from us?

Stole? Western armenia was ottoman land. Anyway, what about azeris land? I am sure, You will find some excuse for them. You have no right to teach me ethic. I am against what happened at 1915.(Unlike your support to what happened to armenians.)

the land and money painted with blood (which won't last forever) or a peaceful mind and a better future for both the Turkish and Armenian generations to come? What benefits do you talk about?

If we listen you, It would be a better future for armenians. Anyway, that land is painted by turkish blood too.

The Turkish people live a lie, nothing more, and their bloody past will never allow them to rest peacefully ...

Bla bla. Everynation have their blood past. This also include armenians. I do not see you have any problem with armenian support to crusaders. So armenian bloody past wont harm you, I am sure Turkish bloody past wont harm me too.

you would do the same if we murdered your people.

No, I wont. My people were murdered too..My family fleed from balkans.

No one will live normally until these issues are cleared so I suggest you look at the bigger picture instead of acting like a politician ...

I think you are wrong. Every nation have their blood losses. or do you think, armenians were only ones who genocided or ethnic cleansed.

a Turkish politician, lol, that goes to bribing school.

A turkish politician is not more or less evil than armenian one. Politicians are politicians and when It comes to states, we need politicians.

No ... that's when life and everything will finally B.E.G.I.N. The past century has been a nightmare thanks to your people. Enough innocent Armenians AND Turks have suffered. It's time to move on and not the pathetic Turkish way.

what is the meaning of move on? do you realy need turkish empaty so much that without turkish empaty and their acceptance of AG you cannot move on.

That is funny. Move on guy. You dont need us.

They can live normally after they SAY they lied and face who their grandfathers were.

So tell me, which county accepted their own blood past? Should I remind you france law about how magnificient of their past?

You don't fully appreciate how serious the AG issue is and what a xxxxx it makes Turkey look like.

I appreciate it. So that is why I do not support Turkish acceptance of AG.

When she faces this, she will look much better and people will trust you more then they do now.

what the hell is trust? I am not aware of fact that trust is such important thing at international politics. Anyway, show me one country which accepted they genocided a nation. Than I can take your serious.

Is that not in the best interest of the Turkish people? If not, then what the xxxx is? What is important to you?

Security.

You are confused. You look at the AG as if it's just a chapter in one of your torn history books when in reality it is YOUR xxxxed up past

It is not my past. It is history like turkish, greek, armenian crimes.. What happened is happened. I have no power to change past. I have power to change future and I prefer to support turkish welfare..

And one quesiton, what is this "welfare" you are interested in? Describe it, won't you?

Easy. Richness of turkish people freedom of turkish people and security of turkish people.

What do you think, we all forgot about what your people did? What your people still do? Open your eyes, dear!

That is bullxxxx. It is not my people did it. It is ittihatists. Armenians(dashnaks) were supporting them when Ittihatist were rebelled against legitimate sultan. So You cannot accuse my people as colletively.

Neither the Turks or Armenians OR Azeris are happy about any borders opening and believe it or not, THEY WON'T.

Wrong. ROA need it. People cannot live with nationalist feelings. They need money. That is why ROA lost half of her population..

One simple reason why. The Turkish gov. has begun placing rediculous preconditions on the table so screw them, their border, and their preconditions ... figuratively speaking....

Yep. Because ROA needed borders. That is why Turkey closed it.

Your officials started that so if your so disgusted, go spit on their faces instead of blaming us.

I do not accused you.

Perhaps when you Turks learn to speak truthfully, then we might consider opening them.

You should read more newspaper and learn who need opening borders. Your macho attitute dont change reality..

ou have stolen everything from us and you talk as if nothing happened. We will always be your wake up call ...

We did not steal anything from you. Before 1915 eastern anatolia is ottoman land and after 1915 It is ottoman land.

We only want healthy relations, nothing more. Screw politics.

If we are talking about nations we cannot screw politics. Anyway, ROA is not even accepting border of Turkey so It would be not healty to talk about opening borders when you are not accepting them..

At the moment, we can't build any proper relations with Turkey because its officials are as screwed up as they were back then.

No. Infact, We dont have healty relation because of our conflict with ROA and Your conflicts with azeris.. It has no relation with officials..

What benefit do you want or expect, Palavra. When I read your posts, I imagine a very materialistic girl, forgive me.

You are 50% right I am materialist when It comes to national politic.(%50 wrong, I am not girl.)

You should also become materialist when It comes to politic of your nation. This is how you survive...

Some part of me begins to think the majority of Turkey thinks like you.

No they dont. They are emotional..

[hrai]

Re: The sense of loss?

As I said before, I refuse to sit in judgement of the actions of an event or persons from nearly 100 years ago. If they did wrong then it should have been dealt with at the time. It is nonsense to pass burden around like some olympic torch batton.

Where I come from, every man/woman is responsible for their own actions and deeds. Your surviving predecessors should have taken the necessary action for restitution at the appropriate time against those individually responsible, some did with assasinations. But it's not my fault the majority had collective amnesia or lacked the will to do it then. I'm afraid it's case closed now.

You're the worst type of turc, you acknowledge what happened, (what will happen if your type have your way again,) and calmly say that those crimes were committed by people no longer here, so forget about it.........
COLLECTIVE AMNESIA !!??
LACKED THE WILL TO DO IT?!!?
I'm afraid it's not case closed now.

[Gavur]

Re: The sense of loss?

Your obviously not guilty, only who deny are , by carrying on the last stage of genocide.If the denial of genocide doesn't end, the genocide would have succeded,that simple.

[Gavur]

Re: The sense of loss?

[QUOTE=ferdi2;264888]

Blinded by lies, indifference, busy with the demands of modern living or mild curiosity? Possibly a bit of each but definitely not the immense preoccupation you guys have.

You admit to everything allready, the rest is just your stubbornes thats all.

[hrai]

Re: The sense of loss?

What irks me is that Armenians have a habit of talking like they've been personally "... burned, severed, drowned, sliced up" when in reality they’ve probably never suffered anything other than a paper cut.

Two brothers who will forever remain in Artsakh.

Go away turc!

[Sako]

Re: The sense of loss?

Ignore the extremist fringe, no credible person within in Turkey or elsewhere would deny that Ottoman Armenians suffered tremendously, it's the semantics about labelling the tragedy and numbers that in dispute. I'm personally not necessarily disagreeing with you about the suffering, many died needlessly, lost everything they had and faced gross injustices unimaginable. I'll go even one further, retrospectively applied it fits with the definition of genocide.

Well in that case ... I forgive you! And just a pointer, according to your post, there seems to be very few credible people within Turkey because they all deny their past. I'm talking about millions upon millions. Think about it...

But seriously I ask again what do you expect from me (your wrong this, the question is derived from pragmatism not cowardice)?

You misunderstood me. I told you a hundred times, I am not personally blaming YOU and asking for your house and everything that belongs to you. I would consider myself the lowest person living on this planet if I asked you to give me what you have. Times have changed, naturally ... but not everything has changed. What you have to do is regret what your grandfathers did, without a doubt in your mind that they DID IT, and support us instead of supporting all the lies in Turkey. That is the first and most important step.

So sorry to disappoint but I'm highly unlikely to ever feel any personal guilt or offer any compensation over something from nearly 100 years ago. Nor am going to sit in judgement of events or people that are far gone. And if I don't why would I expect my government to?

Because your gov. continues to do what it did a hundred years ago. Did you read my entire post? It doesn't seem like it. You simply quoted the smallest thing I said. The Modern Genocide continues till TODAY and your telling me "And if I don't, why would I expect my government to"? You are blinded by your countries lies. You are blinded by their politics. You don't appreciate the gravity of the situation.

The only people that won't be blamed are those who hang their heads and accept what happened like real men and women instead of acting like cowards. That's all I see when I look at the Turkish majority. Liars and Cowards. Period.

It is people who accept what happened that will be forgiven ... the others will pay. I told you. Your grandfathers and grandmothers taught you how to carry their sin, THEIR burden, and only those who prove them wrong and spit on their faces and what they did will be able to move on and let go of that guilt although even then, Turkey will always have blood left on her hands. Nothing will ever be forgotten. Some wounds never heal. This is what I want you to understand. Everything that happened in the past continues till today, simply in a different way and nothing will remain unanswered. You may not pay personally yourself if your smart enough to understand what your ancestors did ... but your nation will pay. You use our money and live on our lands which are painted with blood ... our blood. That is why your nation is guilty. That is why you are partially guilty. But you can get rid of all this. The New Generation can end all this and finally get rid of their feeling of guilt. Too bad your gov. doesn't let you........

......they will pay for that.

When a crime takes place ... the criminal isn't the only one that is taken to the police station. I hope you understand what I'm saying. This is the answer to your question. This is what I want you to remember.

You say lots of nice words about youth, the future etc but I fear the reality is we will never adequately satisfy Armenian ideals of utopia. It's unfortunate for you but it needs to digested that your ancestoral lands and homes are lost forever.

No one wants those lands Ferdi. There is much more that belongs to us ... things you don't know about. That is what belonged, belongs, and will always belong to us. That is what your gov. doesn't want to lose. Why do you think they are so protective?

There is a lot you don't know ...

So where to next?

Whatever direction we choose to go in, kardesh!