The sense of loss?

[Supreme]

Re: The sense of loss?

Back to law school again. Every understood the concept of "bankruptcy"? Well basically bankruptcy laws wipes the slate clean. The demise of the Ottoman empire was the end of that corporation as we know it. What follows, being the Republic of Turkey does not inherit any debts or obligations, it's basically like we're virgins, pure as the driven snow :-) The Lusanne Treaty put paid to that. Go complain to the big boys who created the treaty if you don't like, we didn't invent the rules, just played them right.
As for morality, here's one of my favourite quotes:

“Morality is simply the attitude we adopt towards people whom we personally dislike.”
Oscar Wilde

Too bad reality doesn't work that way...Turkey still carries the Ottoman baggage and thats why you will never be accepted into the EU until the Genocide issue is settled.

[Sako]

Re: The sense of loss?

It wasn't genoicide , it was payback for stabbing us in the back...

Give us proof instead of howling like an impatient chiaus.

My naive friend, do you realy think countried who recognize AG did it because of "humanity".

Now look who's getting all righteous. My naive palavra, even the most inhumane nation understands more about humanity then your country does so go water your own garden!

There a flawed laws in Turkey as well as flawed politicians. Why they choose to criminalize, prosecute or threaten over this issue is beyond my comprehension.

... not ours!

There may be sufficient proof to suggest that due to the wilful neglect and lack of protection afforded to innocent civilians

Your forgetting that your grandfathers in hell FIRST gathered up all the PROTECTORS aka men, and murdered them so that the women wouldn't be protected. Is that something very hard for you to understand? Should I start at a more intermediate level?

Legally speaking they were Ottoman lands, not yours.

Not all the land. If they were, many wouldn't have have ARMENIAN names before the AG. And anyways, factually speaking, your mongol ancestors came to OUR lands so stop with your crap. You don't know a thing about legal issues.

What follows, being the Republic of Turkey does not inherit any debts or obligations, it's basically like we're virgins, pure as the driven snow

Nah, underneath, your just the same xxxxx! We can prove THAT as well.

[TomServo]

Re: The sense of loss?

It is not turkish supremacy. It is nationalism. Anyway, we were not talking about turkey.

I didn't say it wasn't nationalism, but it is also Turkish supremacy. And we are always talking about Turkey. How could you of all people forget that?

Also I am not talking about minorities but immigrations..

Because, most of the time, white supremacy targets the majority?

[Palavra]

Re: The sense of loss?

Not as bad as Turkish supremacy in Turkey. Maori is an official language in New Zealand -- what about Kurdish in Turkey? Even disgruntled realists like yourself have started to realize that treating them like crap is not going to work.

It is not turkish supremacy. It is nationalism. Anyway, we were not talking about turkey. Also I am not talking about minorities but immigrations..

LOL now THERE'S irony. Using the AG to blackmail Turkey??? That's a Turkish tactic. THEY'RE the ones that have threatened everyone and their mother if they recognize the AG, distribute books, movies, articles about it, teach it in schools, etc. Blackmailing people over the AG issue is Turkey's game.

My naive friend, do you realy think countried who recognize AG did it because of "humanity".

[Crimson Glow]

Re: The sense of loss?

Yes, I feel dirty too. It is disgusting to normalise relation with armenians under the thread of AG. That is like blackmailing Turkey with AG.

LOL now THERE'S irony. Using the AG to blackmail Turkey??? That's a Turkish tactic. THEY'RE the ones that have threatened everyone and their mother if they recognize the AG, distribute books, movies, articles about it, teach it in schools, etc. Blackmailing people over the AG issue is Turkey's game.

Well yes, I would expect you to start having normal relations irrespective of what any predecessors may have done. In terms of here and now, what's that got to do with me? Your predecessors should have dealt with it 90, 80, 70, 60, 50 years ago when the guilty were around. It's not my fault your sense of justice remains unfulfilled 94 years later. I know in law there's a popular concept that there remains no statute of limitations on murder, but I reject that.

.....and we care what YOU reject because???

There is, once the culprit has departed this world then as my Italian friends say it's 'la musica e finita'. Denying something may be immoral, bad taste but that doesn't make the post generation complicit in the original sin.

No. That makes you COMPLACENT with the original sin.

I know this will come across as very inflammatory to many of you but keep things in perspective about who really did what, who is to blame, needs to regret, apologize etc.

Your predecessors committed the crime, your current generation denies it, threatens nations who dare to accept it, imprisons those who admit it (even if it's one of their own), IF they're not killed by nationalists first, and you don't think they're the ones who need to regret, and apologize for the actions of those predecessors, as WELL as their own? You apparently have no clue how significant this issue is to your OWN country, not just our people. Otherwise, there wouldn't be such a huge cover up STILL going on. If it's in the past, and nothing can be done about it now, why won't your nation fess up to it? Why do they criminalize the use of the term genocide to describe these events?

Let's say your father stole a car without you knowing it, and gave you that car as a gift, and immediately after, he passes away. Let's say later on, the police traced the trail of the car, and found out it was your dad who had stolen it, and that the car is in your possession. Let's say they believe you when you say you had nothing to do with it. Do you think you'd get to keep the car? Do you feel you'd have the RIGHT to keep that stolen car? After all, you had nothing to do with the crime, and it's not your problem. Well guess what, here where morality and reality rule, the car would be taken from you, and if you had an once of righteousness, YOU'D be apologizing for the actions of your deceased father.

This scenario is no different than the AG issue. Your forefathers came out of no where, occupied lands through rape, pillage and murder, and then took the lands you reside on today by annihilating its indigenous inhabitants. Today, you come here and say "that's not my problem". Ahhhh, but it IS your problem. For you see, you can't have it both ways. Just as when a corporation buys out a business, they not only take ownership of that business, but they inherit ALL of its debts. Likewise, if you can inherit the benefits of your predecessors crimes, then you must also be willing to inherit the means by which you obtained those benefits. You can't just say "thank you, we'll take the lands and riches, but we don't want any mention of how we GOT those lands, cuz that wasn't us!!11" It doesn't work that way, and if you feel it does, then your problem goes well beyond being a denialst Turk. You lack basic moral understanding, and any further discussion with you is futile.

[TomServo]

Re: The sense of loss?

isnt white supremacy a problem at Australia and NZ ?

Not as bad as Turkish supremacy in Turkey. Maori is an official language in New Zealand -- what about Kurdish in Turkey? Even disgruntled realists like yourself have started to realize that treating them like crap is not going to work.

[Palavra]

Re: The sense of loss?

isnt white supremacy a problem at Australia and NZ ?

By the way, If I follow your logic, You could not win a war against turks even with the help of brits and australians? Anyway, That argument was funny. Ottomans was to big to be compared with NZ.

Turkey should just recognize the Genocide...or what hope does the rest of the world have in not blowing each other to tiny bits if we can't do a single nice thing like accept the truth about history?

Oh pls. I dont think world need us. There are a lot of other states who did not recognize genocide they committed too. Maybe we should begin from them. Then we can follow them.

[hipeter924]

Re: The sense of loss?

Still. It is you who glorify(?) lost at dardanellas and It is us who glorify our win. It should be enough for you. You should thanks us. Because our soldiers fight bravely, Now you are a nation..

Anyway, You landed wrong place and There were not enough turk at there. (Afterall, Noone was waiting your stupid mistake.)So It is even. We would not loose a war to non-nation(New Zealand)

did you become a nation? No need to thanks.

NZ got the highest peak (by disobeying the British orders)...but got wiped out because of incompetence of Australians and Brits at coming to our aid. Overall though British incompetence lead to the defeat, landing on the wrong beach was just one thing they got wrong.

NZ did become a nation...in 1947. Though realistically we cut the reigns in the 1980s with the rainbow warrior incident and anti-nuke policy, that basically turned NZ into a nation independent of the British and the United States.

US and UK basically refused a lot of our trade so we went to China, Japan and South Korea, and as recently the middle east (we trade with Iran too and some of their students come here for study ).

I have to say I love China, Japan and South Korea because to put it bluntly they were kinder and more affectionate towards NZ than the British or United States ever were. Even today...British follow a racist food miles policy towards NZ and deny us immigration...even though they have bigger social and economic problems than we do, and on average NZ'ers earn more than the average Brit over there.

China doesn't push us around and use us as pawns...it actually likes NZ...US and UK just used us as cannon fodder in all their wars and didn't like us much (British especially were racist snobs towards NZ and Aus). Chinese, Japanese and South Korean's know NZ more than the US or UK do...and they sure as hell don't think we are part of Australia.

The good thing though is that our foreign policy isn't pro-Israel and pro-US (have to thank the middle eastern traders and Chinese for this), and we are one of the few western nations that doesn't have institutional or cultural intolerance towards Islam, and other religions. We have never had a single complaint to the human rights commission by a Muslim (as far as I know)...so we must be doing something right.

Urgh...this way off topic. Oh well. Getting back on topic. I hate most nationalists...i'm an internationalist. Turkey should just recognize the Genocide...or what hope does the rest of the world have in not blowing each other to tiny bits if we can't do a single nice thing like accept the truth about history?

[Palavra]

Re: The sense of loss?

Still. It is you who glorify(?) lost at dardanellas and It is us who glorify our win. It should be enough for you. You should thanks us. Because our soldiers fight bravely, Now you are a nation..

Anyway, You landed wrong place and There were not enough turk at there. (Afterall, Noone was waiting your stupid mistake.)So It is even. We would not loose a war to non-nation(New Zealand)

did you become a nation? No need to thanks.

[hipeter924]

Re: The sense of loss?

We would have still won against New Zealand troops if they landed like on top of İstanbul , I mean like in the middle...

You were a bunch of slaves who sailed over 5000 miles to fight a war which was none of your business. Can you get anymore lower than that...

You are just zombies , tools used by the English...

And after all this you can still come here and criticize Turkish Democracy which is the only İslamic democracy in the World , and still hold grudge for a war which you started in the Dardanelle's.

The Armenian people backed up by the Russians invaded VAn...

But guess what happened Russia collapsed so Armenians were left in the open like ducks.

We used extreme force to drive out the treachorous swines from our lands.

It wasn't genoicide , it was payback for stabbing us in the back...

But u can keep crying like you had no fault on that subject like 10 year old kids beaten up by the big bad wolf.

You tried a revolution and you failed.

So swallow it and shut up...

Rubbish. Our problem was we didn't just invade your country after we defeated your allies Austria-Hungary and Germany. It would have been easy, you lost 80,000+ soldiers, we lost 1/8th of that. Sorry mate. Ottoman Empire was the sick man of Europe..everyone knows that. Read your history.

As for your democracy. You don't have one. Read 301 or whatever it is. It prohibits freedom of speech, and freedom of ideas. That alone crumbles that fiction of democracy of yours to dust. Before you even get to institutional racism against Kurds, Armenians and other ethnicities in Turkey.