Genocide

[Pazooki]

Re: Genocide

Apres dikran jan!

[Pazooki]

Re: Genocide

Alpixoid, you don't have a CLUE. Why would you come on an Armenian genocide specific forum, and think you're going to teach US something? Do you think we're not aware of your country's claims that this was a "war", and no genocide happened? Do you think we don't understand your government's side to this piece of history? Do you think we haven't seen Turkey's "proof"?

I have studied this subject for 8 years now, and all because your propagandist Turks almost had me convinced an Armenian genocide DIDN'T happen. I didn't grow up around Armenians. I have NEVER known an Armenian, nor even SPOKEN Armenian with anyone outside of my home. So when I first started looking into my heritage, this was all new and foreign to me. The Turks were so vehemently and violently denying the genocide happened, that I started to form some serious questions and doubts about the Armenian's story. So I took it upon myself to start doing some serious research. And I mean scholarly research, not looking at Armenian websites for proof, or Turkish websites for proof, etc. I read through all that, but not for evidence. Just reference as to what the 2 sides conflict on specifically.

After 8 years of continuously studying this subject, I have found that the Turkish side doesn't have a leg to stand on. Their excuses, justifications and reasoning is nothing short of ridiculous, and revolves around leaving out details (what incited the "Armenian aggression" during the Hamidian massacres??), twisting the facts (citing Armenian resistance and last stand acts of self-defense as "genocide against the Turks/Muslims", or "open rebellion"), or distorting time lines (pointing to attacks by Armenian soldiers serving their duties in various country's armies.....AFTER the genocide got under way, and passing it off as Armenians turning traitor), etc. It sounded believable on the surface, but when you read detailed accounts and archival materials explaining what really happened, it's actually really embarrassing. Embarrassing that the Turks keep using such absolutely LAME attempts at "proof" that this was a war.

Here is the result of those 8 years of research. First, Federate already told you to read this (which I very much doubt you did), but if you're serious, READ IT! It will give you a very basic understanding of the history of events leading up to the genocide. Maybe then you will understand how we went from "living side by side in peace" (which is wrong), to full blown genocide. You must understand the changes in power in the Ottoman government to understand what happened.

http://soadfans.com/PNphpBB2-viewtopic-t-25285.htm

Once you wrap your mind around that history, before you consult your favorite local "how to deny the Armenian genocide" handbook/website, read this next (everything you, and the millions of parrots like you, have ever thrown at me is covered here):

http://soadfans.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&p=672761

Here's a few more things to think about. Ask yourself a few questions. Why did the proceeding Turkish government hold tribunals right after WWI, and find Talat, Enver and Cemal Pasha (amongst MANY others) guilty of crimes against humanity, and sentence them to death? Here's a better question. Today, Turkish historians and the Turkish government like to claim that those military trials were political propaganda. Even IF you believe that, that still doesn't change the fact that there were TONS of very, very important testimonials that came out of this, given by Turkish (and German) generals, gendarmes, soldiers, and so on, stating that they had orders to kill the Armenians. We know this. It was well documented that these testimonials were given in court. Yet today, these records are gone. They can't be found in the Ottoman archives, even though it's not disputed that these records existed at one time. Now isn't THAT interesting? Where did they go?? What the hell happened to them?? How did they magically disappear, and why doesn't anyone from Turkey offer an explanation? Hell, they never even bring it up, because there is NO good answer for something like this, and this makes Turkey's case look VERY, VERY bad. And today, Turkey says "our archives are open". Sure.....after DECADES of them being completely off limits to ANYone (even Turkish historians). You expect us to believe now that you left everything intact? Even though we know for a fact that you made the Tribunal military court records disappear? And lastly, why did the numbers Talat recorded in the Ottoman archives differ so greatly from what he kept to himself? I'm sure you've seen or heard about the new book that reveals the last remaining documents of Talat Pasha? After all, you've done "research" about this subject:

http://migs.concordia.ca/NewdocumentrenumberArmeniandeaths1915.htm

This is why we don't take Turkey's offer for a "international investigation" seriously. First of all, this event happened nearly a century ago, and has been investigated to DEATH already by any scholar even remotely interested in this subject. And guess what? There are VERY, VERY few non-Turkish, Turkish sympathizing or Zionist historians who disagree a genocide happened. What is it that Turkey thinks it's going to learn/discover/uncover 94 years later? The evidence is already out there. There is nothing to gain by both sides hiring an international committee. If Turkey is serious about coming to grips with their history, how about they hire some non-Armenian scholars to present the case for genocide to them since apparently, they haven't familiarized themselves with it after nearly a century.

Secondly, a joint committee of Turkish and Armenian participants, chosen and approved by BOTH governments, WAS established in 2002 to take this issue to an international court. The Turkish Armenian Reconciliation Commission (TARC) put together their cases, and presented everything they had to the International Center for Transitional Justice (ICTJ). After investigating the evidence, the ICTJ concluded that the events of 1915 fit the definition of genocide.

http://www.armenian-genocide.org/files/ICTJ_Memorandum.pdf

Immediately after this, Turkey disassociated themselves from TARC, and stated that the ICTJ's findings meant nothing, they don't know what they're talking about. Well if it meant nothing.....why did you agree to this in the first place? How many times are we going to play this game? Till someone finally tells you something you want to hear?

You see, alpixoid, when you look at everything that's transpired around this issue, you start getting the picture that not only did a genocide occur, but denial of it is absolutely silly. But as you said, the problem now is that they've been lying for so long, they CAN'T tell the truth anymore. Could you imagine the impact coming clean after all these years would have? It would be mass chaos. And so now, the denial only exists because of a need to perpetuate the lie to "save face".

Wow, what more would you want alpixoid? If you seriously deny the Genocide after this you must be messing with us or you're just retarded. He gave you the best proof and blocked all your little accusations.

[Crimson Glow]

Re: Genocide

Actually that was 600 thousand but still and I said that I cant protest here in Istanbul but there are protests in Ankara and Konya sometimes..We did a protest 230 people here in Istanbul but 4 people died and many got injured by intolerant people..

Alpixoid, you don't have a CLUE. Why would you come on an Armenian genocide specific forum, and think you're going to teach US something? Do you think we're not aware of your country's claims that this was a "war", and no genocide happened? Do you think we don't understand your government's side to this piece of history? Do you think we haven't seen Turkey's "proof"?

I have studied this subject for 8 years now, and all because your propagandist Turks almost had me convinced an Armenian genocide DIDN'T happen. I didn't grow up around Armenians. I have NEVER known an Armenian, nor even SPOKEN Armenian with anyone outside of my home. So when I first started looking into my heritage, this was all new and foreign to me. The Turks were so vehemently and violently denying the genocide happened, that I started to form some serious questions and doubts about the Armenian's story. So I took it upon myself to start doing some serious research. And I mean scholarly research, not looking at Armenian websites for proof, or Turkish websites for proof, etc. I read through all that, but not for evidence. Just reference as to what the 2 sides conflict on specifically.

After 8 years of continuously studying this subject, I have found that the Turkish side doesn't have a leg to stand on. Their excuses, justifications and reasoning is nothing short of ridiculous, and revolves around leaving out details (what incited the "Armenian aggression" during the Hamidian massacres??), twisting the facts (citing Armenian resistance and last stand acts of self-defense as "genocide against the Turks/Muslims", or "open rebellion"), or distorting time lines (pointing to attacks by Armenian soldiers serving their duties in various country's armies.....AFTER the genocide got under way, and passing it off as Armenians turning traitor), etc. It sounded believable on the surface, but when you read detailed accounts and archival materials explaining what really happened, it's actually really embarrassing. Embarrassing that the Turks keep using such absolutely LAME attempts at "proof" that this was a war.

Here is the result of those 8 years of research. First, Federate already told you to read this (which I very much doubt you did), but if you're serious, READ IT! It will give you a very basic understanding of the history of events leading up to the genocide. Maybe then you will understand how we went from "living side by side in peace" (which is wrong), to full blown genocide. You must understand the changes in power in the Ottoman government to understand what happened.

http://soadfans.com/PNphpBB2-viewtopic-t-25285.htm

Once you wrap your mind around that history, before you consult your favorite local "how to deny the Armenian genocide" handbook/website, read this next (everything you, and the millions of parrots like you, have ever thrown at me is covered here):

http://soadfans.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&p=672761

Here's a few more things to think about. Ask yourself a few questions. Why did the proceeding Turkish government hold tribunals right after WWI, and find Talat, Enver and Cemal Pasha (amongst MANY others) guilty of crimes against humanity, and sentence them to death? Here's a better question. Today, Turkish historians and the Turkish government like to claim that those military trials were political propaganda. Even IF you believe that, that still doesn't change the fact that there were TONS of very, very important testimonials that came out of this, given by Turkish (and German) generals, gendarmes, soldiers, and so on, stating that they had orders to kill the Armenians. We know this. It was well documented that these testimonials were given in court. Yet today, these records are gone. They can't be found in the Ottoman archives, even though it's not disputed that these records existed at one time. Now isn't THAT interesting? Where did they go?? What the hell happened to them?? How did they magically disappear, and why doesn't anyone from Turkey offer an explanation? Hell, they never even bring it up, because there is NO good answer for something like this, and this makes Turkey's case look VERY, VERY bad. And today, Turkey says "our archives are open". Sure.....after DECADES of them being completely off limits to ANYone (even Turkish historians). You expect us to believe now that you left everything intact? Even though we know for a fact that you made the Tribunal military court records disappear? And lastly, why did the numbers Talat recorded in the Ottoman archives differ so greatly from what he kept to himself? I'm sure you've seen or heard about the new book that reveals the last remaining documents of Talat Pasha? After all, you've done "research" about this subject:

According to a long-hidden document that belonged to the interior minister of the Ottoman Empire, 972,000 Ottoman Armenians disappeared from official population records from 1915 through 1916.

http://migs.concordia.ca/NewdocumentrenumberArmeniandeaths1915.htm

This is why we don't take Turkey's offer for a "international investigation" seriously. First of all, this event happened nearly a century ago, and has been investigated to DEATH already by any scholar even remotely interested in this subject. And guess what? There are VERY, VERY few non-Turkish, Turkish sympathizing or Zionist historians who disagree a genocide happened. What is it that Turkey thinks it's going to learn/discover/uncover 94 years later? The evidence is already out there. There is nothing to gain by both sides hiring an international committee. If Turkey is serious about coming to grips with their history, how about they hire some non-Armenian scholars to present the case for genocide to them since apparently, they haven't familiarized themselves with it after nearly a century.

Secondly, a joint committee of Turkish and Armenian participants, chosen and approved by BOTH governments, WAS established in 2002 to take this issue to an international court. The Turkish Armenian Reconciliation Commission (TARC) put together their cases, and presented everything they had to the International Center for Transitional Justice (ICTJ). After investigating the evidence, the ICTJ concluded that the events of 1915 fit the definition of genocide.

http://www.armenian-genocide.org/files/ICTJ_Memorandum.pdf

Immediately after this, Turkey disassociated themselves from TARC, and stated that the ICTJ's findings meant nothing, they don't know what they're talking about. Well if it meant nothing.....why did you agree to this in the first place? How many times are we going to play this game? Till someone finally tells you something you want to hear?

You see, alpixoid, when you look at everything that's transpired around this issue, you start getting the picture that not only did a genocide occur, but denial of it is absolutely silly. But as you said, the problem now is that they've been lying for so long, they CAN'T tell the truth anymore. Could you imagine the impact coming clean after all these years would have? It would be mass chaos. And so now, the denial only exists because of a need to perpetuate the lie to "save face".

[UrMistake]

Re: Genocide

Well in some citys and villages turks are majority in germany and kurds are majority in here it doesnt mean if you are in majority in one or two cities and villages you have it all!!And yes some historians does make it up to change the past but not just in here.There are historians like that in every country who wants too make their country look great..And I dont mean consuls from 1915 I mean the consuls in 1990s and 2000s..By the way I think it is an insult to try to change the past..In the Ottoman Empire Armenians had jobs in government and schools also they had like all the rights except joining the military..

Good job alpixoid ur post is a great explanation for the azeris and kurds of the region,with the above assumption i demand Naxichevan given back and all of Nagorno-Karaback by azeris,end u have to explain that to them in few years when they will demand part of Georgia.

[UrMistake]

Re: Genocide

Well in some citys and villages turks are majority in germany and kurds are majority in here it doesnt mean if you are in majority in one or two cities and villages you have it all!!And yes some historians does make it up to change the past but not just in here.There are historians like that in every country who wants too make their country look great..And I dont mean consuls from 1915 I mean the consuls in 1990s and 2000s..By the way I think it is an insult to try to change the past..In the Ottoman Empire Armenians had jobs in government and schools also they had like all the rights except joining the military..

Well u would be right but then u did not take in account the fact that it were the historical land of Armenians and no matter the number they were back then the lands belong to them.
The fact that our government and other officials stick to Treaty of Sèvres it have a meaning cause it recognize the above,even that its partially piece of historic Armenian land.
Get it?U would call me expansionist if i ask for Cilicia or Azerbaijan? Instead of that our politicians are moving step by step having logic in demands.

[Anoush]

Re: Genocide

Well I am open-minded about an apology for genocide but that won't happen..Try to live in peace you have a great land already..

Really a great land? It is a tiny smidgen of a land and it is totally landlocked. Our land was never as tiny as it is today. When we have at least the Wilsonian Armenia, then that would be a great land.

[Anoush]

Re: Genocide??..

personally, an apology just will not cut it. A crime, especially one to this degree, does not end with an apology, nor does a crime expire. Millions lost their personal property, were uprooted from the lands of their ancestors where they lived for thousands of years. reparations are necessary.

Absolutely!!!!!

[Federate]

Re: Genocide??..

Well I got the idea that Lemkin hated Turks on a forum and the funeral thing is just interesting but what my point was that we should apologize about genocide and you should start to forget about it a little diggin up the history wont get us anywhere and by the way you are right about the german thing but I still believe that if you let us to research our government may apologize about it..

Even if some sort of research was to be done, access to the Ottoman archives are very limited. Scholars have historically been usually denied any kind of access to the Ottoman archives or when they have been allowed, they have been permitted to touch only limited materials. Other scholars have accused the Turkish authorities of cleansing their own archives as well. Add to this the fact that the script used in Ottoman archives is an archaic form of Arabic script so this makes it very hard to research.

Personally, an apology just will not cut it. A crime, especially one to this degree, does not end with an apology, nor does a crime expire. Millions lost their personal property, were uprooted from the lands of their ancestors where they lived for thousands of years. Reparations are necessary.

[Eddo211]

Re: Genocide??..

........I am kinda funny dont I?(That is a question)

hahaha…..NO.
Dumb ass funny, yes. Any other bright revelations that you like to share with us.

Like Mr. T says……….I pity them fools.



You are very naïve aren’t you. Do you realize as a Turk what would happen if Turkey recognized the AG? Next thing you know you have the Kurds, Greeks, Assyrians,… asking for official apology and land back. Your own people will blow a gasket when they find out for how long their government has been manipulating them. You might be facing a civil war or a another cleansing coupe by the military. Are you sure you want your government to do this?

[ArmSurvival]

Re: Genocide

Actually that was 600 thousand but still and I said that I cant protest here in Istanbul but there are protests in Ankara and Konya sometimes..We did a protest 230 people here in Istanbul but 4 people died and many got injured by intolerant people..

If they kill their fellow Turks in such a manner in the present day, imagine how bad it was for Christians accused of treason 100 years ago during a world war, when there was no electronic media.

And to top it off, the leadership at that time were outspoken Pan-Turkists.