Re: Genocide
Wow, what more would you want alpixoid? If you seriously deny the Genocide after this you must be messing with us or you're just retarded. He gave you the best proof and blocked all your little accusations.
Originally posted by Crimson Glow
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Alpixoid, you don't have a CLUE. Why would you come on an Armenian genocide specific forum, and think you're going to teach US something? Do you think we're not aware of your country's claims that this was a "war", and no genocide happened? Do you think we don't understand your government's side to this piece of history? Do you think we haven't seen Turkey's "proof"?
I have studied this subject for 8 years now, and all because your propagandist Turks almost had me convinced an Armenian genocide DIDN'T happen. I didn't grow up around Armenians. I have NEVER known an Armenian, nor even SPOKEN Armenian with anyone outside of my home. So when I first started looking into my heritage, this was all new and foreign to me. The Turks were so vehemently and violently denying the genocide happened, that I started to form some serious questions and doubts about the Armenian's story. So I took it upon myself to start doing some serious research. And I mean scholarly research, not looking at Armenian websites for proof, or Turkish websites for proof, etc. I read through all that, but not for evidence. Just reference as to what the 2 sides conflict on specifically.
After 8 years of continuously studying this subject, I have found that the Turkish side doesn't have a leg to stand on. Their excuses, justifications and reasoning is nothing short of ridiculous, and revolves around leaving out details (what incited the "Armenian aggression" during the Hamidian massacres??), twisting the facts (citing Armenian resistance and last stand acts of self-defense as "genocide against the Turks/Muslims", or "open rebellion"), or distorting time lines (pointing to attacks by Armenian soldiers serving their duties in various country's armies.....AFTER the genocide got under way, and passing it off as Armenians turning traitor), etc. It sounded believable on the surface, but when you read detailed accounts and archival materials explaining what really happened, it's actually really embarrassing. Embarrassing that the Turks keep using such absolutely LAME attempts at "proof" that this was a war.
Here is the result of those 8 years of research. First, Federate already told you to read this (which I very much doubt you did), but if you're serious, READ IT! It will give you a very basic understanding of the history of events leading up to the genocide. Maybe then you will understand how we went from "living side by side in peace" (which is wrong), to full blown genocide. You must understand the changes in power in the Ottoman government to understand what happened.
Once you wrap your mind around that history, before you consult your favorite local "how to deny the Armenian genocide" handbook/website, read this next (everything you, and the millions of parrots like you, have ever thrown at me is covered here):
Here's a few more things to think about. Ask yourself a few questions. Why did the proceeding Turkish government hold tribunals right after WWI, and find Talat, Enver and Cemal Pasha (amongst MANY others) guilty of crimes against humanity, and sentence them to death? Here's a better question. Today, Turkish historians and the Turkish government like to claim that those military trials were political propaganda. Even IF you believe that, that still doesn't change the fact that there were TONS of very, very important testimonials that came out of this, given by Turkish (and German) generals, gendarmes, soldiers, and so on, stating that they had orders to kill the Armenians. We know this. It was well documented that these testimonials were given in court. Yet today, these records are gone. They can't be found in the Ottoman archives, even though it's not disputed that these records existed at one time. Now isn't THAT interesting? Where did they go?? What the hell happened to them?? How did they magically disappear, and why doesn't anyone from Turkey offer an explanation? Hell, they never even bring it up, because there is NO good answer for something like this, and this makes Turkey's case look VERY, VERY bad. And today, Turkey says "our archives are open". Sure.....after DECADES of them being completely off limits to ANYone (even Turkish historians). You expect us to believe now that you left everything intact? Even though we know for a fact that you made the Tribunal military court records disappear? And lastly, why did the numbers Talat recorded in the Ottoman archives differ so greatly from what he kept to himself? I'm sure you've seen or heard about the new book that reveals the last remaining documents of Talat Pasha? After all, you've done "research" about this subject:
This is why we don't take Turkey's offer for a "international investigation" seriously. First of all, this event happened nearly a century ago, and has been investigated to DEATH already by any scholar even remotely interested in this subject. And guess what? There are VERY, VERY few non-Turkish, Turkish sympathizing or Zionist historians who disagree a genocide happened. What is it that Turkey thinks it's going to learn/discover/uncover 94 years later? The evidence is already out there. There is nothing to gain by both sides hiring an international committee. If Turkey is serious about coming to grips with their history, how about they hire some non-Armenian scholars to present the case for genocide to them since apparently, they haven't familiarized themselves with it after nearly a century.
Secondly, a joint committee of Turkish and Armenian participants, chosen and approved by BOTH governments, WAS established in 2002 to take this issue to an international court. The Turkish Armenian Reconciliation Commission (TARC) put together their cases, and presented everything they had to the International Center for Transitional Justice (ICTJ). After investigating the evidence, the ICTJ concluded that the events of 1915 fit the definition of genocide.
Immediately after this, Turkey disassociated themselves from TARC, and stated that the ICTJ's findings meant nothing, they don't know what they're talking about. Well if it meant nothing.....why did you agree to this in the first place? How many times are we going to play this game? Till someone finally tells you something you want to hear?
You see, alpixoid, when you look at everything that's transpired around this issue, you start getting the picture that not only did a genocide occur, but denial of it is absolutely silly. But as you said, the problem now is that they've been lying for so long, they CAN'T tell the truth anymore. Could you imagine the impact coming clean after all these years would have? It would be mass chaos. And so now, the denial only exists because of a need to perpetuate the lie to "save face".
I have studied this subject for 8 years now, and all because your propagandist Turks almost had me convinced an Armenian genocide DIDN'T happen. I didn't grow up around Armenians. I have NEVER known an Armenian, nor even SPOKEN Armenian with anyone outside of my home. So when I first started looking into my heritage, this was all new and foreign to me. The Turks were so vehemently and violently denying the genocide happened, that I started to form some serious questions and doubts about the Armenian's story. So I took it upon myself to start doing some serious research. And I mean scholarly research, not looking at Armenian websites for proof, or Turkish websites for proof, etc. I read through all that, but not for evidence. Just reference as to what the 2 sides conflict on specifically.
After 8 years of continuously studying this subject, I have found that the Turkish side doesn't have a leg to stand on. Their excuses, justifications and reasoning is nothing short of ridiculous, and revolves around leaving out details (what incited the "Armenian aggression" during the Hamidian massacres??), twisting the facts (citing Armenian resistance and last stand acts of self-defense as "genocide against the Turks/Muslims", or "open rebellion"), or distorting time lines (pointing to attacks by Armenian soldiers serving their duties in various country's armies.....AFTER the genocide got under way, and passing it off as Armenians turning traitor), etc. It sounded believable on the surface, but when you read detailed accounts and archival materials explaining what really happened, it's actually really embarrassing. Embarrassing that the Turks keep using such absolutely LAME attempts at "proof" that this was a war.
Here is the result of those 8 years of research. First, Federate already told you to read this (which I very much doubt you did), but if you're serious, READ IT! It will give you a very basic understanding of the history of events leading up to the genocide. Maybe then you will understand how we went from "living side by side in peace" (which is wrong), to full blown genocide. You must understand the changes in power in the Ottoman government to understand what happened.
Once you wrap your mind around that history, before you consult your favorite local "how to deny the Armenian genocide" handbook/website, read this next (everything you, and the millions of parrots like you, have ever thrown at me is covered here):
Here's a few more things to think about. Ask yourself a few questions. Why did the proceeding Turkish government hold tribunals right after WWI, and find Talat, Enver and Cemal Pasha (amongst MANY others) guilty of crimes against humanity, and sentence them to death? Here's a better question. Today, Turkish historians and the Turkish government like to claim that those military trials were political propaganda. Even IF you believe that, that still doesn't change the fact that there were TONS of very, very important testimonials that came out of this, given by Turkish (and German) generals, gendarmes, soldiers, and so on, stating that they had orders to kill the Armenians. We know this. It was well documented that these testimonials were given in court. Yet today, these records are gone. They can't be found in the Ottoman archives, even though it's not disputed that these records existed at one time. Now isn't THAT interesting? Where did they go?? What the hell happened to them?? How did they magically disappear, and why doesn't anyone from Turkey offer an explanation? Hell, they never even bring it up, because there is NO good answer for something like this, and this makes Turkey's case look VERY, VERY bad. And today, Turkey says "our archives are open". Sure.....after DECADES of them being completely off limits to ANYone (even Turkish historians). You expect us to believe now that you left everything intact? Even though we know for a fact that you made the Tribunal military court records disappear? And lastly, why did the numbers Talat recorded in the Ottoman archives differ so greatly from what he kept to himself? I'm sure you've seen or heard about the new book that reveals the last remaining documents of Talat Pasha? After all, you've done "research" about this subject:
This is why we don't take Turkey's offer for a "international investigation" seriously. First of all, this event happened nearly a century ago, and has been investigated to DEATH already by any scholar even remotely interested in this subject. And guess what? There are VERY, VERY few non-Turkish, Turkish sympathizing or Zionist historians who disagree a genocide happened. What is it that Turkey thinks it's going to learn/discover/uncover 94 years later? The evidence is already out there. There is nothing to gain by both sides hiring an international committee. If Turkey is serious about coming to grips with their history, how about they hire some non-Armenian scholars to present the case for genocide to them since apparently, they haven't familiarized themselves with it after nearly a century.
Secondly, a joint committee of Turkish and Armenian participants, chosen and approved by BOTH governments, WAS established in 2002 to take this issue to an international court. The Turkish Armenian Reconciliation Commission (TARC) put together their cases, and presented everything they had to the International Center for Transitional Justice (ICTJ). After investigating the evidence, the ICTJ concluded that the events of 1915 fit the definition of genocide.
Immediately after this, Turkey disassociated themselves from TARC, and stated that the ICTJ's findings meant nothing, they don't know what they're talking about. Well if it meant nothing.....why did you agree to this in the first place? How many times are we going to play this game? Till someone finally tells you something you want to hear?
You see, alpixoid, when you look at everything that's transpired around this issue, you start getting the picture that not only did a genocide occur, but denial of it is absolutely silly. But as you said, the problem now is that they've been lying for so long, they CAN'T tell the truth anymore. Could you imagine the impact coming clean after all these years would have? It would be mass chaos. And so now, the denial only exists because of a need to perpetuate the lie to "save face".
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