Genocide

[Pazooki]

Re: Genocide

Alpixoid, you don't have a CLUE. Why would you come on an Armenian genocide specific forum, and think you're going to teach US something? Do you think we're not aware of your country's claims that this was a "war", and no genocide happened? Do you think we don't understand your government's side to this piece of history? Do you think we haven't seen Turkey's "proof"?

I have studied this subject for 8 years now, and all because your propagandist Turks almost had me convinced an Armenian genocide DIDN'T happen. I didn't grow up around Armenians. I have NEVER known an Armenian, nor even SPOKEN Armenian with anyone outside of my home. So when I first started looking into my heritage, this was all new and foreign to me. The Turks were so vehemently and violently denying the genocide happened, that I started to form some serious questions and doubts about the Armenian's story. So I took it upon myself to start doing some serious research. And I mean scholarly research, not looking at Armenian websites for proof, or Turkish websites for proof, etc. I read through all that, but not for evidence. Just reference as to what the 2 sides conflict on specifically.

After 8 years of continuously studying this subject, I have found that the Turkish side doesn't have a leg to stand on. Their excuses, justifications and reasoning is nothing short of ridiculous, and revolves around leaving out details (what incited the "Armenian aggression" during the Hamidian massacres??), twisting the facts (citing Armenian resistance and last stand acts of self-defense as "genocide against the Turks/Muslims", or "open rebellion"), or distorting time lines (pointing to attacks by Armenian soldiers serving their duties in various country's armies.....AFTER the genocide got under way, and passing it off as Armenians turning traitor), etc. It sounded believable on the surface, but when you read detailed accounts and archival materials explaining what really happened, it's actually really embarrassing. Embarrassing that the Turks keep using such absolutely LAME attempts at "proof" that this was a war.

Here is the result of those 8 years of research. First, Federate already told you to read this (which I very much doubt you did), but if you're serious, READ IT! It will give you a very basic understanding of the history of events leading up to the genocide. Maybe then you will understand how we went from "living side by side in peace" (which is wrong), to full blown genocide. You must understand the changes in power in the Ottoman government to understand what happened.

http://soadfans.com/PNphpBB2-viewtopic-t-25285.htm

Once you wrap your mind around that history, before you consult your favorite local "how to deny the Armenian genocide" handbook/website, read this next (everything you, and the millions of parrots like you, have ever thrown at me is covered here):

http://soadfans.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&p=672761

Here's a few more things to think about. Ask yourself a few questions. Why did the proceeding Turkish government hold tribunals right after WWI, and find Talat, Enver and Cemal Pasha (amongst MANY others) guilty of crimes against humanity, and sentence them to death? Here's a better question. Today, Turkish historians and the Turkish government like to claim that those military trials were political propaganda. Even IF you believe that, that still doesn't change the fact that there were TONS of very, very important testimonials that came out of this, given by Turkish (and German) generals, gendarmes, soldiers, and so on, stating that they had orders to kill the Armenians. We know this. It was well documented that these testimonials were given in court. Yet today, these records are gone. They can't be found in the Ottoman archives, even though it's not disputed that these records existed at one time. Now isn't THAT interesting? Where did they go?? What the hell happened to them?? How did they magically disappear, and why doesn't anyone from Turkey offer an explanation? Hell, they never even bring it up, because there is NO good answer for something like this, and this makes Turkey's case look VERY, VERY bad. And today, Turkey says "our archives are open". Sure.....after DECADES of them being completely off limits to ANYone (even Turkish historians). You expect us to believe now that you left everything intact? Even though we know for a fact that you made the Tribunal military court records disappear? And lastly, why did the numbers Talat recorded in the Ottoman archives differ so greatly from what he kept to himself? I'm sure you've seen or heard about the new book that reveals the last remaining documents of Talat Pasha? After all, you've done "research" about this subject:

http://migs.concordia.ca/NewdocumentrenumberArmeniandeaths1915.htm

This is why we don't take Turkey's offer for a "international investigation" seriously. First of all, this event happened nearly a century ago, and has been investigated to DEATH already by any scholar even remotely interested in this subject. And guess what? There are VERY, VERY few non-Turkish, Turkish sympathizing or Zionist historians who disagree a genocide happened. What is it that Turkey thinks it's going to learn/discover/uncover 94 years later? The evidence is already out there. There is nothing to gain by both sides hiring an international committee. If Turkey is serious about coming to grips with their history, how about they hire some non-Armenian scholars to present the case for genocide to them since apparently, they haven't familiarized themselves with it after nearly a century.

Secondly, a joint committee of Turkish and Armenian participants, chosen and approved by BOTH governments, WAS established in 2002 to take this issue to an international court. The Turkish Armenian Reconciliation Commission (TARC) put together their cases, and presented everything they had to the International Center for Transitional Justice (ICTJ). After investigating the evidence, the ICTJ concluded that the events of 1915 fit the definition of genocide.

http://www.armenian-genocide.org/files/ICTJ_Memorandum.pdf

Immediately after this, Turkey disassociated themselves from TARC, and stated that the ICTJ's findings meant nothing, they don't know what they're talking about. Well if it meant nothing.....why did you agree to this in the first place? How many times are we going to play this game? Till someone finally tells you something you want to hear?

You see, alpixoid, when you look at everything that's transpired around this issue, you start getting the picture that not only did a genocide occur, but denial of it is absolutely silly. But as you said, the problem now is that they've been lying for so long, they CAN'T tell the truth anymore. Could you imagine the impact coming clean after all these years would have? It would be mass chaos. And so now, the denial only exists because of a need to perpetuate the lie to "save face".

Wow, what more would you want alpixoid? If you seriously deny the Genocide after this you must be messing with us or you're just retarded. He gave you the best proof and blocked all your little accusations.

[Pazooki]

Re: Genocide

Apres dikran jan!

[alpixoid]

If they kill their fellow Turks in such a manner in the present day, imagine how bad it was for Christians accused of treason 100 years ago during a world war, when there was no electronic media.

And to top it off, the leadership at that time were outspoken Pan-Turkists.

Yea I can imagine that..

hahaha…..NO.
Dumb ass funny, yes. Any other bright revelations that you like to share with us.

Like Mr. T says……….I pity them fools.



You are very naïve aren’t you. Do you realize as a Turk what would happen if Turkey recognized the AG? Next thing you know you have the Kurds, Greeks, Assyrians,… asking for official apology and land back. Your own people will blow a gasket when they find out for how long their government has been manipulating them. You might be facing a civil war or a another cleansing coupe by the military. Are you sure you want your government to do this?

Our government didnt do anything that bad except AG so if someone thinks they can hear an apology from us..They wont..

Even if some sort of research was to be done, access to the Ottoman archives are very limited. Scholars have historically been usually denied any kind of access to the Ottoman archives or when they have been allowed, they have been permitted to touch only limited materials. Other scholars have accused the Turkish authorities of cleansing their own archives as well. Add to this the fact that the script used in Ottoman archives is an archaic form of Arabic script so this makes it very hard to research.

Personally, an apology just will not cut it. A crime, especially one to this degree, does not end with an apology, nor does a crime expire. Millions lost their personal property, were uprooted from the lands of their ancestors where they lived for thousands of years. Reparations are necessary.

Tell that to the government..

Really a great land? It is a tiny smidgen of a land and it is totally landlocked. Our land was never as tiny as it is today. When we have at least the Wilsonian Armenia, then that would be a great land.

Well at least you got your own country you never got that before..(I am talking about a country full of Armenians)

Well u would be right but then u did not take in account the fact that it were the historical land of Armenians and no matter the number they were back then the lands belong to them.
The fact that our government and other officials stick to Treaty of Sèvres it have a meaning cause it recognize the above,even that its partially piece of historic Armenian land.
Get it?U would call me expansionist if i ask for Cilicia or Azerbaijan? Instead of that our politicians are moving step by step having logic in demands.

Well if you want to live in Anatolia so much come here..You were a minority and you will be a minority again if you come..Only this time we will treat you better because there is already 50 thousand Armenians living in Turkey..And if you want Azerbaijan take it they never helped us do anything.We wont protect them..

Good job alpixoid ur post is a great explanation for the azeris and kurds of the region,with the above assumption i demand Naxichevan given back and all of Nagorno-Karaback by azeris,end u have to explain that to them in few years when they will demand part of Georgia.

Azerbaijan is a powerless small country at least you've got the world behind you and if you want a part of Azerbaijan go get it..Nobody will protect Azerbaijan..

Alpixoid, you don't have a CLUE. Why would you come on an Armenian genocide specific forum, and think you're going to teach US something? Do you think we're not aware of your country's claims that this was a "war", and no genocide happened? Do you think we don't understand your government's side to this piece of history? Do you think we haven't seen Turkey's "proof"?

I have studied this subject for 8 years now, and all because your propagandist Turks almost had me convinced an Armenian genocide DIDN'T happen. I didn't grow up around Armenians. I have NEVER known an Armenian, nor even SPOKEN Armenian with anyone outside of my home. So when I first started looking into my heritage, this was all new and foreign to me. The Turks were so vehemently and violently denying the genocide happened, that I started to form some serious questions and doubts about the Armenian's story. So I took it upon myself to start doing some serious research. And I mean scholarly research, not looking at Armenian websites for proof, or Turkish websites for proof, etc. I read through all that, but not for evidence. Just reference as to what the 2 sides conflict on specifically.

After 8 years of continuously studying this subject, I have found that the Turkish side doesn't have a leg to stand on. Their excuses, justifications and reasoning is nothing short of ridiculous, and revolves around leaving out details (what incited the "Armenian aggression" during the Hamidian massacres??), twisting the facts (citing Armenian resistance and last stand acts of self-defense as "genocide against the Turks/Muslims", or "open rebellion"), or distorting time lines (pointing to attacks by Armenian soldiers serving their duties in various country's armies.....AFTER the genocide got under way, and passing it off as Armenians turning traitor), etc. It sounded believable on the surface, but when you read detailed accounts and archival materials explaining what really happened, it's actually really embarrassing. Embarrassing that the Turks keep using such absolutely LAME attempts at "proof" that this was a war.

Here is the result of those 8 years of research. First, Federate already told you to read this (which I very much doubt you did), but if you're serious, READ IT! It will give you a very basic understanding of the history of events leading up to the genocide. Maybe then you will understand how we went from "living side by side in peace" (which is wrong), to full blown genocide. You must understand the changes in power in the Ottoman government to understand what happened.

http://soadfans.com/PNphpBB2-viewtopic-t-25285.htm

Once you wrap your mind around that history, before you consult your favorite local "how to deny the Armenian genocide" handbook/website, read this next (everything you, and the millions of parrots like you, have ever thrown at me is covered here):

http://soadfans.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&p=672761

Here's a few more things to think about. Ask yourself a few questions. Why did the proceeding Turkish government hold tribunals right after WWI, and find Talat, Enver and Cemal Pasha (amongst MANY others) guilty of crimes against humanity, and sentence them to death? Here's a better question. Today, Turkish historians and the Turkish government like to claim that those military trials were political propaganda. Even IF you believe that, that still doesn't change the fact that there were TONS of very, very important testimonials that came out of this, given by Turkish (and German) generals, gendarmes, soldiers, and so on, stating that they had orders to kill the Armenians. We know this. It was well documented that these testimonials were given in court. Yet today, these records are gone. They can't be found in the Ottoman archives, even though it's not disputed that these records existed at one time. Now isn't THAT interesting? Where did they go?? What the hell happened to them?? How did they magically disappear, and why doesn't anyone from Turkey offer an explanation? Hell, they never even bring it up, because there is NO good answer for something like this, and this makes Turkey's case look VERY, VERY bad. And today, Turkey says "our archives are open". Sure.....after DECADES of them being completely off limits to ANYone (even Turkish historians). You expect us to believe now that you left everything intact? Even though we know for a fact that you made the Tribunal military court records disappear? And lastly, why did the numbers Talat recorded in the Ottoman archives differ so greatly from what he kept to himself? I'm sure you've seen or heard about the new book that reveals the last remaining documents of Talat Pasha? After all, you've done "research" about this subject:

http://migs.concordia.ca/NewdocumentrenumberArmeniandeaths1915.htm

This is why we don't take Turkey's offer for a "international investigation" seriously. First of all, this event happened nearly a century ago, and has been investigated to DEATH already by any scholar even remotely interested in this subject. And guess what? There are VERY, VERY few non-Turkish, Turkish sympathizing or Zionist historians who disagree a genocide happened. What is it that Turkey thinks it's going to learn/discover/uncover 94 years later? The evidence is already out there. There is nothing to gain by both sides hiring an international committee. If Turkey is serious about coming to grips with their history, how about they hire some non-Armenian scholars to present the case for genocide to them since apparently, they haven't familiarized themselves with it after nearly a century.

Secondly, a joint committee of Turkish and Armenian participants, chosen and approved by BOTH governments, WAS established in 2002 to take this issue to an international court. The Turkish Armenian Reconciliation Commission (TARC) put together their cases, and presented everything they had to the International Center for Transitional Justice (ICTJ). After investigating the evidence, the ICTJ concluded that the events of 1915 fit the definition of genocide.

http://www.armenian-genocide.org/files/ICTJ_Memorandum.pdf

Immediately after this, Turkey disassociated themselves from TARC, and stated that the ICTJ's findings meant nothing, they don't know what they're talking about. Well if it meant nothing.....why did you agree to this in the first place? How many times are we going to play this game? Till someone finally tells you something you want to hear?

You see, alpixoid, when you look at everything that's transpired around this issue, you start getting the picture that not only did a genocide occur, but denial of it is absolutely silly. But as you said, the problem now is that they've been lying for so long, they CAN'T tell the truth anymore. Could you imagine the impact coming clean after all these years would have? It would be mass chaos. And so now, the denial only exists because of a need to perpetuate the lie to "save face".

Well I did accept genocide but there are not much protest to make the govenment apologize and there are much non-turkish historians that doesnt accept genocide but it doesnt mean that it didnt happen.I aggree with you but it is still funny that you give me links of SOAD's site because I read all of them before I posted here.Actually what makes me post these messages is SOAD's site.When they come Turkey I'm sure someone will attack them..

Wow, what more would you want alpixoid? If you seriously deny the Genocide after this you must be messing with us or you're just retarded. He gave you the best proof and blocked all your little accusations.

I never said that I deny it.And i couldnt resist not to ask about your avatar..Who's that it looks so cool..

Apres dikran jan!

What does that mean?

[UrMistake]

Re: Genocide

Well if you want to live in Anatolia so much come here..You were a minority and you will be a minority again if you come..Only this time we will treat you better because there is already 50 thousand Armenians living in Turkey..And if you want Azerbaijan take it they never helped us do anything.We wont protect them..

Well i believe we will be more like equals than minority,why well cause other minority will take part and make there present,like Zaza people and Hamshens atc.The biggest part of the population now days are the Kurds,so that will make Turks the minority in the region.
People will be represented more like the political system of Lebanon.
And before the arrival of Turkic waves we were always the majority in the region.
we decline cause of the slaughters that occurred,and the hard living conditions created by our suppressors.

[alpixoid]

Re: Genocide

Well i believe we will be more like equals than minority,why well cause other minority will take part and make there present,like Zaza people and Hamshens atc.The biggest part of the population now days are the Kurds,so that will make Turks the minority in the region.
People will be represented more like the political system of Lebanon.
And before the arrival of Turkic waves we were always the majority in the region.
we decline cause of the slaughters that occurred,and the hard living conditions created by our suppressors.

No there are 11 million Kurdish and 78 million Turk and 1 million of other minorities in Turkey..And the time you were a majority were loooong ago before the Turks came to Anatolia..

[Pazooki]

Re: Genocide

Well I did accept genocide but there are not much protest to make the govenment apologize and there are much non-turkish historians that doesnt accept genocide but it doesnt mean that it didnt happen.I aggree with you but it is still funny that you give me links of SOAD's site because I read all of them before I posted here.Actually what makes me post these messages is SOAD's site.When they come Turkey I'm sure someone will attack them..

So you accept the fact that 1.5 Million Armenians were back stabbed by your country and lead astray into the desert and massacred?

Oh and what I said in Armenian I told Crimson Glow Good job.

[jgk3]

Re: Genocide

No there are 11 million Kurdish and 78 million Turk and 1 million of other minorities in Turkey..And the time you were a majority were loooong ago before the Turks came to Anatolia..

And what were the demographics before 1890?

We all know you did a nice, very thoroughly conducted house cleaning that resulted in a that whopping majority of 78 million (alleged) Turks.

[Crimson Glow]

Re: Genocide

Our government didnt do anything that bad except AG so if someone thinks they can hear an apology from us..They wont..

If you are this unfamiliar with the AG, isn't it possible you are equally ignorant about the rest of your country's history? What is often referred to as the Armenian genocide was in fact more accurately the Anatolian Christian genocide. Armenians suffered the worst only because they were the largest minority inside the Ottoman Empire. However, Greeks, Assyrians, Lebanese, etc. all suffered immense losses as well due to being Christian minorities in a period where the fascist idea of Islamic pan-Turkism was at its peak.

Pay special attention to the fact that I said Islamic pan-Turkism. It wasn't good enough to just be a Muslim. You had to be a Turk, as well. You need only look at the Kurds, who have been horribly treated for decades, to realize the truth behind this, and understand what pan-Turkism means. Just as Armenians were once seen as the biggest threat to the Turks due to being the largest minority, and therefore, received the brunt force of Turkey's fury, the Kurds now fill our shoes as the biggest minority/threat, and are being dealt with brutally.

Well at least you got your own country you never got that before..(I am talking about a country full of Armenians)

Where are you getting this from? There were Armenian empires and states long before Turks even existed, let alone migrated to Anatolia.

Well if you want to live in Anatolia so much come here..You were a minority and you will be a minority again if you come..Only this time we will treat you better because there is already 50 thousand Armenians living in Turkey..And if you want Azerbaijan take it they never helped us do anything.We wont protect them.. Azerbaijan is a powerless small country at least you've got the world behind you and if you want a part of Azerbaijan go get it..Nobody will protect Azerbaijan..

First of all, we aren't interested in living under Turkish occupation again. We're talking about Turkey giving back what is rightfully Armenian lands, not sharing, or living together within a nation that already slaughtered 3/4 of our people the first time we tried this.

Secondly, this time you will treat us better because there are already 50k Armenians living in Turkey? Are you kidding me?? There were 2.4 million Armenians in Turkey during most of the Ottoman reign, and that number didn't drastically drop because we were treated well. Even today, everyday, somewhere in your country, ancient Armenian history is being demolished, altered or rebadged as Turkish. Ever since it was established, your nation has been working hard to erase any trace of Armenian history and inhabitance from the historic Armenian lands it violently took, and you think Turks will allow Armenians to live in peace in Western Armenia today? Not without international intervention, and redrawing of boarders.

Also, your government is ALREADY helping Azerbaijan. The Azeris are seen as very close relatives of Turkey, thus why they placed a blockade on Armenia over the Nagarno-Kharabakh issue. If you don't think they'd jump to the aid of Azerbaijan at the drop of a hat, you know absolutely nothing about your country. The last thing they want to see is Armenia expanding, or strengthening, especially by taking away Turkic land.

Lastly, granted Azerbaijan is a small, powerless country which Armenians could EASILY take if they wanted, the world is NOT behind Armenia. We have maybe the Russians, and that's about it. Otherwise, because they are a Turkic people, it is the Azeris that have the support of the US, Israel, Britain, etc, and of course, Turkey. It is not Azerbaijan that worries us. It's everybody else who would stand behind THEM that would be the issue.

Well I did accept genocide but there are not much protest to make the govenment apologize and there are much non-turkish historians that doesnt accept genocide but it doesnt mean that it didnt happen.I aggree with you but it is still funny that you give me links of SOAD's site because I read all of them before I posted here.Actually what makes me post these messages is SOAD's site.When they come Turkey I'm sure someone will attack them..

No, there are NOT "much non-Turkish historians that doesn't accept genocide". There are VERY, VERY few as I stated before, and the vast majority of those few are Zionists, and Turkish sympathizers like Justin McCarthy (served in the Peace Corps in Turkey, from 1967-1969, taught at Middle East Technical University AND Ankara University, and received an honorary doctorate from Boğaziçi University). The number of non-biased, non-Turkish historians who state that what happened in 1915 wasn't a genocide is almost non-existent. Stop reading unsubstantiated statements from Turkish propaganda websites.

As for those links, I'm the one who created those threads (Anomalous). Even on an SOAD fan site, we have Turks coming in to tell people "we no make a genocide. ermeni is lie. dont spread such lies". Unfortunately, once in a while, Turks have the misfortune of running into someone like me, who can hand them (and people MUCH smarter than them/the people they copy/paste, or get their info from) their asses.

BTW, I very highly doubt SOAD will ever play in Turkey. The were planning to a few years ago, and canceled the show because the government told them they can't "guarantee your security".

I never said that I deny it.And i couldnt resist not to ask about your avatar..Who's that it looks so cool..

No? What do you call this?

I mean when our ancesters came to anatolia and decided to live with you guys you ancesters just changed their citizenship and they didn't kill any of you...And years later russians and you attacked us to create a new country...but we won and just re-located you..well that isn't genocide at all...you killed a lot of us...we are enemies because you dont want to make peace with us but we want...you shouldn't hate us for a non-proved genocide happened so many years ago...

And that's all JUST IN YOUR FIRST POST!!! I can show you dozens more examples. If you want to know why Armenians are hostile towards Turks, it's because we have dealt with Turks like you over and over again. Every single part of what I quoted is wrong. Everything else you wrote about in that first post is wrong on other levels (Turkey being a peaceful nation, Turkey wanting to be friends with Armenia, etc). You have NO idea how silly the things you claim sound to people who are educated about these subjects (not just Armenians). For example, do you really think a group of Mongols (Seljuk Turks) migrated from Asia all the way to Anatolia, and PEACEFULLY took the lands of the indeginous inhabitants? All these people that had been there for thousands of years just said "oh, hey new guy who isn't native here. What's that? Oh, you want our 1000s of years old ancestral lands? SURE! Come on over, we'll just become Turkish citizens!" Does that sound realistic, or make sense to you by any stretch of the imagination?

You also claimed that Turks don't hate Armenians. What are you basing this on? The fact that a handful of people showed up to protest Hrant Dink's death? Did you see the photographs of the murderer? The police gave him a Turkish flag, and posed for pictures with him before arresting him. They were celebrating the fact that he murdered Hrant. Also, pull up ANY non-genocide related Armenian video on YouTube, and look at the comments. These are videos that have absolutely NOTHING to do with the Turks, so there's no reason for Turks to watch them, or comment on them. This means Turks are purposely looking for these videos on YouTube. Read the comments on those videos, and all you'll see from Turks is "ermeni steal this music/dance/food from Turkey", "armenian are theif they take turkish land", "we fuk your grandmothers and we going to do again".

Don't speak for your fellow countrymen. You don't have the first clue about what is going on in your country right NOW, let alone the history of Anatolia, or your country. By your own admission, you didn't even know that something happened to the Armenians till recently (when you started listening to SOAD), or that anyone hated you, so you admit that this is all brand new to you. Yet you come here to tell people "the truth"? You come here and rant about how wrong we are about everything? Can you not see why that would make people angry?

[Pedro Xaramillo]

Re: Genocide

Erdoğan did that to get vote that didnt earn any respecy but when Peles called to apologize,that earned respect and China's actions are genocide but they stopped killing people in there...It doesn't matter what our leaders say,what matters is when they say something people do what they say...That earns respect..

Okay humour me here, how is China's actions Genocide, please tell me I would love to hear this? How is the death of below 200 people, of which most were

Please show me evidence of this fangled mass Armenian movement against Turks in freaking Bosnia, for God's sake at least base your opinions on solid facts that can be proven before making fallacious arguments, and when people disagree call it hate, it is not helping your case at all but actually making you seem quite foolish, again debate properly then people will award you more respect.

So far all we have seen from you is that you are an apologist for the Turkish Government, deny the Genocide and claim Armenians hate Turks, whereas let me show what Turkish tolerance means towards Armenians :


Tolerant huh?

Now if this is Turks being friendly I wonder what you look like when pissed, maybe Genocidal?

[UrMistake]

Re: Genocide

No there are 11 million Kurdish and 78 million Turk and 1 million of other minorities in Turkey..And the time you were a majority were loooong ago before the Turks came to Anatolia..

Do u think i were talking about all the turkey!
No,majority of ethnic turks now days are about 50 million and in that particular piece of land are very few populated and the majority are Kurds.So if u make the numbers and find the population of other minoritys in the region under Sevres threat in Wilsonian Armenia that will make about 8-9 million people all will be of different groups.
So to be a part of Armenia is still very realistic picture.