Opinions of a Turk, or two (hi from Turkey)

[TomServo]

Yea i'll forward this one to armenians in Turkey.

come on racist diaspora show you face...

The Armenians in Turkey hate your guts.

[Siamanto]

Yea i'll forward this one to armenians in Turkey.

Oops! I forgot to delete "your" in thinktrice's post!
It should have been as follows:

Do you care for people in Turkiye?

Of course! I do believe in animal rights!

Yes! Please let every Jurk in TEMPORARILY SO CALLED Turkey know how I feel about their rights!

come on racist diaspora show you face...

Why? Are you in Photography? TomServo, you have competition!

[cemil]

Hi From Turkey

Maybe this thread will be removed, but i sat infront of the pc and wrote this tonight,thanks for paying care ;

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Firstly,my words to the partisan, ignorant Armenians,i know that, they are not majority of Armenians;

Yes, we did genocide , and if it was today we would kill more.

What will happen if Turkey confirms genocide? Greatest genocide maker was Nazis and USA helped Germany to develop by Marshall plan.

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Be careful, about continuing this argument, you can find yourself proved more guilty than Turks.

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There was war of races in early 20th century, many people died, arent you ashamed of making politics over dead people. We accept many Armenians were dead, and we dont want to talk about it because we respect their souls.

Please , you, mostly young, brain washed Armenians, respect the souls of Turks/Muslims your ancestors murdered and close the case.

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Now i want to write for more sensible Armenian friends,patient to read ,which are majority i am sure, in consciousness of the fact that we shared same soil,water and air for 1000 years,and still sharing.

We have many books written in Turkish,many researches done and evidances found ,proving the facts.

In 1919, Versailles Treaty discussions, Head of Armenian Comission was Bogos Nubar.

According to his letter to French Government,according to his detailed researches, 650.000 people were emigrated to south parts of Empire, and 390.000 of them reached the target places in Syria and Iraq.
What happened to 260.000 missings? Himself Bogos Nubar, doesnt say all of them was killed by Turks,in his letter.Murdered people must be lower than that, very low than that.

Today when we put ourselves in place of one single murdery victim, we can feel the pain. But ,dont you agree, we should put ourselves in place of all victims,millions of people ,who suffered,in Anatolia,Balcans,Crimea,Caucasus,Middle East..during dissolving process of Ottoman Empire, and nation-states appearing ?

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Russia ,before 1917 Revolution, used Armenians to interfere Anatolia; Armenian gangs,supported by Russia, made terror to prove they were majority on the lands,that terror and hopes of independance continued till Russia withdrew from War,in 1917. But for 1000 years they were never majority in Anatolia.

Before Turks came in 11th century, in East Rome-Byzantion Empire times, Armenians were not majority in East Anatolia already. Byzantion Empire dispersed Armenians inside Anatolia.

And Armenians, just like many other non-muslim nations, were content of Ottoman rule, because Ottomans were much more justiceful than previous system.

For many centuries we lived in peace. As i said, we have many books about what happened in late 19th and early 20th century, about rebellius moves of Armenian minority, who were provoked by Russia,England and France, that those big countries used non-muslim minorities to enlarge and interfere.

We dont want to talk about those years, because we have respect for long centuries we lived in peace.

The date, you make anniversary every year , 24th of April;

In 1915, April 24 , Ottoman government arrested 235 Ottoman Armenians, who were proved related to terror.

To call this day genocide , is not suiting historical facts.

We must close the case, and look to future.

That relocation/ forced move event was a response of Empire Government, against a threat of Russian-Armenian partnership, threat of making East Anatolia an Armenian country , where they were never majority for 1000 years.


Starting from 2nd part of 19th century, there was conflicts between East Anatolian Armenians and other local muslim clans (kurds).

First conflict started because of, Sultan Abdülhamit II, wanted to prevent a possible independance move of Armenians,when Armenians started to talk about independance for the first times. He didnt want Armenians to be independant like Bulgarians and Greeks. The Sultan increased the tax amounts over Armenians and first rebel moves happened because Armenians rejected to pay those taxes. Abdülhamit created Hamidiye Army, made of local kurd soldiers. And used this army to beat down the rebel moves of Armenians. First conflicts started like this. Maybe Abdülhamit was wrong to create eneminess between kurds and armenians. Because that conflict continued for long, and the robbery and murdery during relocation in 1915, came from those local clans.

But were armenians innocent? Abdülhamit tried to prevent possible Armenian independance. Why would he let his lands gone,where, Armenians were never majority? He wanted to prevent the first nationlist acts of Dashnak and Hinchak commitees. By raising taxes etc.. Because he saw Greece, Bulgaria,Yugoslavia be independant by same way.



So, in the process of, a nation (Armenians) wanted to be independant, and the Empire (Ottoman) tried to prevent...many rebelius moves happened, and many responses came.

In 1980s,when Asala terror was happening, a United Nations comissioner talked about so-called genocide: '' we talk about how many armenians were killed, but we dont know how many turks were killed''

Its because of the propoganda done by Armenian diaspora against Turks,since especially 1960s.

As i told, the casualties during relocation is maximum one third of 650.000 people. 390.000 of them reached the target places(according to Bogos Nubar). And those places were not like Nazi camps. Government provided healthy living conditions as much as War era let.

The casualties were because of hunger,diseases,bad travel conditions like lack of oxcarts/carriers, and unfotunate robberies and murders, done by local muslim clans, with revengeful feelings.
You must know that Armenian gangs killed many muslims with hope of Russian army will come, and make them independant. In March and April 1915, in city Van, Armenians gathered and, when the Russian invasion got close to Van, they take the muslim districts under fire,forced them to go away,if they are not already killed.
That Armenian rebel move helped Russian army to invade Van. There are messages from Tsar, to Armenian leaders , thanking about this help.
And many other rebellius moves of Armenians..

Revenge feelings was because of this process. It was war of races in East Anatolia.

The casualties during relocation, 260.000 people, not all of them died because of murdery,but because of bad conditions of war times. Event cant be considered as genocide. But of course its very tragic.

Ottoman soldiers should have protected them well. This is a mistake.

But dont forget, same region was under Russia invasion.Army was fighting against them,to take them out of Anatolia. Also Ottoman army was fighting in many other regions in Middle East and Europe, inside World War 1.

When Russia withdrew in 1917, the places they left, many East Anatolia cities,towns,villages, during this going-back , Armenian gangs applied massacres to local muslims/turks.

Later, after 1st WW was over, Armenians returned to Anatolia, with French help and wanted to take revenge, applied massacres to Muslims/Turks in South Anatolia in Kilikia, There again Turkish Armies responded.

So, during all these conflicts, many Armenians died, but many Turks died too.
Between 1820s and 1920s, from Balcans to Caucasus, at the places where Ottoman rule finished, many millions of Turks/muslims were either killed or emigrated.

Now, during the process of conflicts in East anatolia, if you add all of the casualties together and have a sum of million people, and create genocide thesis on that number... History will prove you wrong.

Even the casualties during relocation of 1915 ( Government decision taken in May 30 - nothing to do with April 24, when terror leaders were arrested) , as i said tragic , but not a genocide; hunger,disease, and murdery done by uneducated, and revengeful ,poor local clans.

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Speak from your heart and brain, how can this be called genocide.

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As one sensible Armenian said , you played a gamble, on independance, you started first, and you lost the gamble. Thats all.

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During all days of fire, when Ottoman Empire felt down, many Muslims/Turks were killed in Balcans, Crimea, Caucasus.

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You can't add all dead Armenians in the era, and have a conclusion of genocide.

Relocation event, was response of a country to defend its lands. Armenians were not majority no where. Even in the towns where they were living most, they were not more than 1/3 of population.

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Young Turk leaders applied this relocation event just to prevent independance, Russia-Armenian cooperated invasion(city Van rebel was the most important reason-March-April 1915), and to take the Armenian people away from war region, and away from the places where there were possibility of local fights. When WW1 concluded, The Ittihat ve Terakki (Young Turk ) leaders , Cemal,Talat,Enver,Sait Halim Pashas were judged by winner countries and didnt prove guilty. Because they were not guilty. They just tried to defend their lands.

But, still those leaders assasinated by Armenians.

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Many local government officials were proved guilty, because of being responsible from cruelties against immigrants, and those people were judged in 1918, many of them proved guilty and punished, some executed. But those were individual crimes or missing the responsibilities, by local officials,in a chaotic region. There were not crime proved ,done by central government. Whoever found guilty, because of bad events against immigrants, were punished.

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Now i want to conclude my text:

There was a war of races, the main reson of this,was Armenian rebel moves.
You cant add all the armenian deaths happened during this process, in many different place and time, have a sum of casualties, and describe it as genocide. Be fair.

Many turks died too.

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I want to conclude my text with a last letter of someone.

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Dr. Resit was governer of Diyarbakir in 1915,member of Young Turk ecole. The city Diyarbakir, was the meeting point of roads going south in East Anatolia, many Armenian immigrants were reaching that point while they go to Syria and Iraq.
Later , he was judged because of the event . He wrote his memories in prison. I am trying to translate his last letter, with my weak English,its a text he wrote to defend himself,its explaining the facts i think :

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<< My arrival to Diyarbakir matches one of the worst days of War. Van and Bitlis's most parts were under enemy invasion, many Army fugitives were making robbery and murdery everywhere, preventions were needed for Yezidi and Nasturi rebellions in the area, the aggresive behaviour of Armenians were making government concerned..against all these, there were not enough and proper army force to cope with these.Muslim community were in panic and concerned because of Armenian murders and attacks..

Before my arrival, war storages,military carriage opportunities..and other important works , were all given to Armenian comittees' possession,Armenian leader priest became governer's counsellor, highly educated Armenian people were visiting Armenian villages and warning and preparing their people. Priests were visiting their people and telling them:
- Survival day is close. Get prepared. Even sell your animals that you use in agriculture, get armed, after we manage, goods of Muslims,their houses,lands will be ours.

These people, collected and gathered thousands of army fugitives in Armenian districts, clearly threatening police and gendarme. Such that, police and gendarme cant enter Armenian districts. Government authority is collapsed. Singing independance songs:
You were ruling till today
From now, we will rule,you will be slave

Russian army was expected to get closer , before dynamites and bombs explode..

...

[cemil]

...

With good will and determination,hoping i can succeed,with praying the god,i tried to save pride of government and lives of muslim public.With these immediate precautions,thanks god, i succeded some:
I called religus leaders and other community heads to my place. I told the good will of government about Armenians. I wanted them to give army fugitives,committee members and other harmful people to government. I told them this :
-They will obey your words, if you want you can give them to us.
I gave them 1 week time to do what i wanted. With sure words, i told them that, if they dont give those people to us, we will catch and arrest them and their protectors,and send them to military court..1 day before the time i gave finished, i called some of the Armenian leaders again. They told me that they are not able to do anything with unwilling words.
At the decided day, i surrounded and held exits of Armenian district, searched all of the houses and caught over 500 army fugitives with their weapons..
According to the words of arrested people, and evidances, we found out that, even in the smallest Armenian village, there were weapons,bombs and commitee stuff, women-men, old-kid all Armenians were aware of organisation and aim, all Armenians were inside this 'national' aim and organisation with their money and mind.
Apart from Diyarbakir , in Van,Bitlis,Erzurum, Erzincan,Maras,Trabzon,Adana,Sivas,Urfa and some other cities and towns,government found out that Armenians were getting ready for rebellion with dynamites,bombs,other weapons ; many destructive weapons found in every city and village Armenians were living. By virtue of this situation , Government took the decision of (forced)emigration, and this decision sent to all cities' governers.
At first, code ( instructions) didnt reach the cities. So every place ,officials acted as they wanted. Thus, i though this emigration was only for men. I seperated women,kids and also old people. But later, the instruction reached was telling to emigrate all of them, so i started to act that way.
As i told above, we had lack of opportunities and tools inorder to manage this action in comfort and order.City officials under my authority was untrustable because i hadnt have time to know them. The police and gendarme was nothing in number and ability.
When,the responsibility of emigrating Armenians required proper soldier and guardian forces, we were sending 40 tones of food to army every day,we had to cope with many local rebellions, Armenian commitee actions, we had to provide house and food for thousands of immigrants coming from close cities,escaping from invaded lands..etc problems we had.On the other hand, the local muslim people, who were provoked by Armenian actions and aims,and ready to make robbery, were big danger for Armenian immigrant convoys. Army and Governmet was not giving enough force of soldiers to us.
We did manage to gather just 50 soldiers as a proper and trustable force.
However, this force, was responsible to provide carriers from local clans, and to cope with highwaymen/robber groups. So i had to create other forces made of other local people, made of city artisans, non-muslim villagers..and selected again local officers to direct them.However this force
was not different than the robber people who attacked the convoys. The fact which made our situation more difficult was, Diyarbakir was a meeting point for the roads,convoys travel, coming from Erzurum,Bitlis,Harput and Trabzon, going to Zor( Syria ).
Some people, who had boiled and pounded wheat in his home enough for 1 year,was coming from 5 hours way to take 1 kg of wheat in Armenian village, who wanted to rob one single person who was felt back from convoy, or the ignorant uneducated,jobless,robber people who follow the convoys for 5-6 days to take 1 single household article,shoe.. the convoy might leave on the way...The local people of region were like this, and can any order be expected when we have guardians from same local people?
I, as much as i could do, tried to select 1-2 guardians for each convoy group, but it was not very available to provide order, inside that region where cruelty and greed was dominant.Finally i prepared and sent a code, to be applied in center and districts. Acording to this code,the families who were going to be emigrated, will be aware 1-2 days before, they were going to be able to carry their carriable goods and money ( ministery instruction was likewise)
To find carriers as much as possible, to send, at least women,kids and disabled ones inside carriers,to pay enough care for outer attacks,for both muslim and armenian outer atatcks and action, and to provide comfort as much as conditions let us.. The code was telling these.
Unfortunately this code couldnt be applied totally.And it couldnt have been. In many place, officials and public,were acting in misarable greed and passion, robberies and armed attacks took place. We expelled some district governers. We warned repeatedly and sent instructions everywhere. But region was so bad that ,we couldnt manage with our facilities. The thesis that ''i ordered murder and created Circassian gendarme force to do that'' is a big lie. The instruction i gave is clear.
The unfortunate violence,attacks and cruel acts that happened while we sent Armenian convoys, were cause of ;lack of discipline, attacks made with revenge and robbery feelings, war conditions, especially migrations caused by invasion, Diyarbakir's closeness to war lands and being transportation and travel point, the general chaos environment, the mistakes that previous governer before me, did. It was impossible to prevent these.
At other cities, which were not as bad as Diyarbakir ,such as Erzurum,Van,Bitlis and Harput and also some cities far away from war, similar unfortunate events took place. No any governer could prevent these. Because Armenian attacks had provoked hate and revenge, with ignorance,greed and lack of carrierr,etc reasons, situation became worse.>>

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This letter of Governer Dr. Resit is 2 pages of a 150 page subject in the book i hold now. And telling similar things, but mostly how everything was cause of armenians rebellion move, gang actions provoked by Russia (especially in Van, before May30-relocation decision taken by government)

It was days of fire, for everyone living in the region. It was not genocide, it was tragedy for people of anatolia, armenians,turks every nation..

Dr. Resit was judged right after Ottomans lost the war, he killed himself because of this blames, maybe he was not guilty by any virtue,maybe he was blamed just to find someone guilty, by pressure of winner countries of WW1 England,France..

It was a tragedy for everyone effected by the WW1 on earth.

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One Armenian person i met online told me '' turks removed Armenians, because Armenians were very succesful ''

This is not totally wrong, Young Turks wanted to make the economy national and create national middle class and many greek and armenians were doing business in country, business was held by them, more than muslim/Turks, doing agriculture. But this is one of the facts in this large subject,and not the reason for any killing. Killings only happenned because of war of races in east anatolia. State didnt kill any innocent people, apart from preventing armenian rebellion moves,apart from armenians who used weapons.

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Between 1820s and 1920s ,in Balcans,Crimea, Caucaus regions, millions of Turks/muslims were either killed or emigrated. In Balcans and Caucasus, when Greece,Bulgaria became independant with wars, when Russia enlarged in Caucasus, the mass of muslim people was forced to leave those lands, through Turkey, through war line.

When Russia enlarged in Caucasus before and during WW1, thousands of muslims were forced to go inside war line. Where they stuck between two fire.

Do you ask the question, why Ottomans didnt force Armenians to go north-east , but to south?

Because state wanted to protect them, not to let them stay between 2 fires of fighting armies. To send them to safe places.

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State was guilty only because it was a weak state. Guilty because it couldnt bring its authority to every single point of country. It had let the East Anatolia be in chaos.

So that weak state disappeared and Turkish republic appeared. Young Turk move, tried to manage the weak country in WW1's chaotic world.

Many modern values was brought by them, to the middle age empire.

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Centuries of peceful life till late 19th century..Big countries' interfere to Ottoman internal affairs by teasing non-muslim minorities..Hinchak and Dashnaksutyun rebellion moves... Empire's response, with the experience of Balcan conflicts.. Weak empire and lack of authority in East anatolia.. Comment is yours.

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I am grandgrand son of a grandgrand mum, who hidden her Armenian housekeeper in her house and prevent her from emigration in Erzurum. You can be sure of many stories like this happened too. Many little kids,babies were adopted to save their lives. I am sure if the roles were different,Armenians would do the same for muslims.

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There is a Turkish poet, he lived in France during 1950s . He once told a memory of him on tv: '' I met an Armenian old woman in Paris, when she learned i am Turkish, she became very happy and invited me for dinner to their house. In the dinner, there was a young member of the family. He suddenly asked me ,what do you think about the armenians you killed. I didnt know what to say. And the old woman replied him ,dont talk like that, we all know we started. ''


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We are people of same geography and we can deal well and improve our countries, forget the opposing tragedies in history and look to the future. Dont get in traps of imperialism who want to interfere Middle East and Caspian Sea region. Region of energy resources.

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This case is carried on ,makes me think, when we argue this..we found Russian effect. Maybe some forces on today's world dont want Russia-Turkey cooperation. This case would be something to bring Turkey and Russia opposing.

That Beslan terror event in North Ossetia last year, happened right before Putin's visit to Ankara.

Russia,India,China are likely to create a Eurasian force in coming decades, maybe some forces on earth dont want Turkey deal with them.

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I offer this so-called genocide arguments be over. Because it didnt happen

[TJ]

Try to condense it next time, or start a bit smarter, you cant expect me to read much past the first posting when you start so idioticly and provokingly.
Let me just say one thing, if you respected anything you would accept what you did publicly instead of denying it and saying let it go. Nextly, dont try to give a scholarly lecture and try to change history when you start by saying we did it and well do it again what are you trying to prove. Then at the end yo uwrite it didnt happen? argue amongst yourself then decide what story you are sticking to.
Im very sorry that such a big part of your country is so brainwashed and doesnt know xxxx about their own history even. its very sad.

Anyway, there will come a time very soon indeed when your backwards opinions are no more tolerated than those of today's holocaust deniers. Thats all i have to say to you. God give you a better insight into things and let you see the truth one day.

[TomServo]

I'm ready for my close-up Mr. cemil.

Yes, we did genocide , and if it was today we would kill more.

Alright cemil, you can leave now.

[cemil]

trying to create eneminess against a nation, based on false history ,is not good.

dividing Turkey into 3 is argued in this forum.

My starting are for them, and if you agree on that ,for you too.

[TomServo]

Speakie Engee?

[Sip]

Time to take out the trash.

[LadySilver]

I don't get why people like yourself get on Armenian Forums and try to convince us of being brainwashed and that the Turkish people never did anything. Don't try to rewrite history. I'd rather believe my great great grandmother who was a young woman when the Armenian Genocide happened than a person who admits it happened then suddenly changes their mind and says it didn't.