Opinions of a Turk, or two (hi from Turkey)

[winoman]

Turks were not exterminated from the Balkans - there are still many hundreds of thousands - or more -Turks living in the Balkans. Turks got what they gave there. I'm sorry for all the innocents who were caught in such struggles and perished and suffered - but everyone learned such tactics from the Turks and gave it back to them when they had the chance. If Ottomon rule was so glorious for the minorities then why did they so wish to be rid of such rule? (and ask yourself why the Turks wished to be ridd of such [mis]rule - as they most certainly and obviously did) And regarding the Balkans - do you understand the social system where the Ottoman landowners used the locals for serfs - who could not own the land in their own homelands? Ottomans were more brutal to some then others and always valued the industry of the Armenians - but to think that the Armenians lived for hundreds of years as any kind of equals (or that they went unmolested - un preyed upon...) is false history. And the social revolution that spanned the century divide caused upheavals that no poster's here have indicated any awareness of. When Turks talk of the good relations with Armenians and how Armenians could have betrayed them they are being blind to the failure of the Ottoman system - in general - and specifically in regard to the Armenians - and no posters here have exhibited any understanding of these socail changes and how they created the revolution of the CUP and the CUP followed revolutionary behavior that combined with the circumstances and history turned into the Holocaust (for the Armenians) that it became. There can be no doubt that a Genocide was perpetuated against the Armenians - that it was planned as such and that it largely succeeded - the evidence for such is overwhelming and it is accepted (by all but you Turks). To deny such is either to admit your ignorance or is a testament that other forces/beliefs prevent you from seeing the truth. Of course there is the context issue and more - and this is why I posted Berktay. I was naive to expect any kind of intelligent discussion from anyone here. Your friend Rookie denier is so far out of his league - and knows it - thus he is attempting to attack my character. I cannot help it that I know and understand far more about these events then most anyone here - with only the damaged Bell the Cat perhaps comming close in knowledge - though he is the one who believes he knows better then any - even Dadrian and the other experts. But I think there is no hope for you really. Far too few Turks really have the means to understand - and Armenians have been too wounded to want to even take the effort - and who can blame them. No Turk who has posted here in this latest round has shown at all the necessary intelligence or understanding to figure these things out - to understand what occured beyond some headline or proaganda. You lack the facilities to truly understand history- the sublties of it - to really understand why certain things happend and to be able to seperate truth from fiction.

[winoman]

I believe that their aim was to evacuate Armenians from Anatolia.If they had thought other,they would have needed not deportation!Or All Armenians would have arrived nowhere after deportation. ... If the order was to be "exterminate Armenians" ,all Soldiers would kill Armenians and noone reach Syria... .

Not so easy as it sounds. You Turks always say how Ottomans were beset by enemies - wars on many fronts - etc - well yes true. And many in Army (old guard) were not at all in favor of the CUP politics and aims. So a fraction of the Gendarmes and the Special Organization (of released violent criminals) and of course the Turkish masses - much refugees from Crimiea/Balkans - who were seething at loss of status and crumbling fortunes and empire - hatred of prosperous educated uppity independence minded Armenians - etc - deportations became an amazingly efficint means to kill - and save bulets and such -and provided an excellent cover story - etc. And yes it was pre-planned and pre-meditated genocide. I have so much eveidence that makes this indiputably clear.

[Crimson Glow]

How can wise people reach the true things only one-sided information? We are here ... We are questioning our views.This is good thing for you,again.

*looks around in confusion*

The...."Turks are here questioning their views"......you... mean on this forum? I suggest you re-read what your fellow countrymen wrote over the course of the last week.

Perhaps many Armenians are throwing insults, but as I explained on one of these threads (I've lost track of them by now), that is because they're sick of dealing with the preposterous excuses the Turks deal out. I'm sure there are those Turks capable of handling their own in such a debate, but we don't ever seem to get those Turks on this forum. You see, far from coming here to "learn our view", or open up their minds to other possibilities, or whatever other claim they make when they join this forum, all the Turks that have entered this forum (past OR present) have made their TRUE motives clear by offering nothing but "only one-sided information", while accusing Armenians of being brainwashed. So, again, excuse them if they don't feel like being foolish enough to lay down long, extensive posts going into detail about our "one-sided, brainwashed truths" as I, like an idiot, have taken the time to do. I mean.....where has it gotten me/us? I type out complex, thorough explanations, and I'm met with some not so well thought out, nonsensical babble that doesn't address the issues/facts/stories I present by any stretch of the imagination, or my points are skipped/ignored all together. And like a complete dolt, I keep doing it, thinking it will eventually sink in, or redeem a response. They're not here to understand/learn our side, regardless of their initial false pretense reasoning for joining. They're here merely to drill THEIR side into us, as if we are going to miraculously surrender, and agree.

The past few nights, this board has taken up WAY too much of my time, and for what? Apparently, my own stupidity/foolishness, because I've given too much credit to the supposed/so-called "open minded Turks". That's enough. No more wasting time, dwelling in my ignorant and misplaced hope that those Turks who completely misunderstand the history will come around and learn. I wash my hands of this task.

[eMachine]

The Armenians in Turkey hate your guts.

its not correct. we christian community have strong relation with Armenians, Armenians are aight in Anatolia, i mean T.R. cares about Armenian people here and Armenians live in confort...

Originally Posted by thinktwice
come on racist diaspora show you face...

well, whatta hell are you doing right now? aint racism?

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B...01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

Speakie Engee?

no1 has to speak perfect english, it's not an armenian or turkish official language. your language capacity does not proves that you are smarter. not everybody lives in usa, britain or australia, so nobody has to learn perfect english, whatever people writes, even against you, should to respect, i think you are loosing people's support with your this acts like showing stupid pics, teasing ppl with their english etc...
i'm a armenian supporter and most of we christians are, but we don't have good english, we do not live in usa etc... maybe you just should to respect language capacity.

s

ip wrote
It might be cool to go to school in Turkey! In history class, you can just make up your own history and get an A

are you having fun in a pub or talking about genocide?

Cemil wrote
fine, ignore what we think, keep talking amongst people like yourself and other Turk enemies.

Turkey will never ever accept this lie.

well, ottoman empire was a big lie already... they sold istanbul to brits... is it turkish nationalism?

TomServo wrote
No EU4U!

its a big armenian fault, if turkey doesnt joins EU, then it will be more dangerious for Armenia... EU has power on Turkey right now, that's why armenians relax for now.
i recommend you to think about
"what if EU doesnt rules turkey" --> means a free turkey, stronger turkey against enemies, a big chance for turk fascist generals to attack around huh????

i mean "NO EU4U = NOLIFE4ARMENIA"

sip wrote
NICE! I didn't know the Turks got their asses kicked by Armenians. This is so sweet. Maybe Armenians should acknowledge their Turkish Genocide and give all the lands and stuff they took from the turks back.

Oh pooooooor pooor Turkey ... so sad ... so sad. They were beat up by Armenians

I almost feel sorry for the poor Turks now.

i wonder how old are you?

Originally Posted by nunechka
as long as you keep denying the truth i will continue to believe that you are a savage, uncultured, uneducated mass of village fools...

so what? does it matter if you believe or not, or what you believe?... im cultured, i have education +being pilot soon, and not born in village or not living in village,and im defender of christianity, im just a christian turk. look, not all turks are same.

sadi wrote
Ohhh ... Let's invite third-party civilized people here.Close our nicks...And ask him ,which ones belongs to savage,uncultured and uneducated people?

fascists of both sides...

[Sip]

i wonder how old are you?

Old enough to feel sorry for the poor Turks that were beat up by the mean mean Armenians who are now making up all the lies and Turkey won't get to be in EU and then they might get mad at Armenians

[Red Brigade]

The VAST majority of the Turks beleive in the Sun theory and you know it.Because since you have never done something significant through your history , you need to find a ''noble'' past.Pan Turanism ala Ataturk, the butcher.
Ataturk was nothing more than a fascist hypocritical butcher.
The Seljuks didnt won the Matzikert, battle it was the Byzantian that lost it themsleves.The Byzantine Nobles hated the Emperor so they planed a plan in order to betray him and kill him during the battle of Matzikert so he call lose and they take the power.During the battle the Byzantian Army was winning the Turks.You were already going to retreat .In the last minute a traitor souted to the Army to retreat saying that the Emperor was dead.The Seljuks didnt understood why the Byzantian were retreating because they have already won the battle.The Byzantian Army panicked because of that foolish traitor and they lost.Because of this treachery your insignificant nation still exists.But of course you didnt knew that part of history right.

[sadi]

The VAST majority of the Turks beleive in the Sun theory and you know it.Because since you have never done something significant through your history , you need to find a ''noble'' past.Pan Turanism ala Ataturk, the butcher.
:

Please someone having enough knowledge about Turkey gives information Red Brigade...

Only Naionalist Party follovers believes this.nationalist party is not even in the parliament!Vast majorty of Turks is ridiculing it... It was invented in 1930s and and putted aside in 1940...

You are lacked of extreemly basic facts...Ataturk is against Turanist thoughts!Enver,Talat and Cemal were Turanist...They disliked Ataturk... Ataturk was not pro-german... And,even his biggest enemies ,like Venizelos,accepted that he was a Great Leader... Venizelos,his biggest enemy,nominated Ataturk for the Nobel Peace Prize in 1934!And nearly all great leaders have cited of greatness of Ataturk...

And,yes,we have not contributed civilisation.Why? Because we had not lived settled until Anatolia.We had lived as nomads.This is not a shame!But,you are not a greek or chinese or Eygptian civilisation!This is also basic fact!

The biggest obstacle to the problem is fascist and ignorant peoples of both Countries..

[winoman]

Sadi I can agree with this last post you made here in this thread.

This point in particualr has merit:
"The biggest obstacle to the problem is fascist and ignorant peoples of both Countries.."

However I think it is a mistake to lump the majority of either Turks or Armenians into this category. While all Armenains are very aware of the Genocide and what it means to them - they are often less concerned with the particualrs on the Turkish side - and this is understandable if you think about it yes? As for Turks - most don't even think or aren't even aware of the Armenains Genocide at all - certianly don't give it any kind of daily thought or even close. At best it is just another small history blurb that is presented to them in the typical mantra we see most Turks here repeating and its accepted as that. Of course there are many Turks who are more aware of this issue (accuratly and otherwise) and I understand how the visibility has been increasing in recent years - and this is a good thing. Still with the great amount of baggage that is carried within the Turkish psyche on this issue it will not be easy to pierce through to the truth and achieve understanding. And of course the issue s far too politicized on either side.

If you - as a Turk - wish to be useful to this process - I would suggest that your time on this forum might be better spent in familiarizing Armenians with the environment in Turkey - the mindset of people - what is going on in the media and perhaps some cultural stuff - to perhaps build some bridges and help to develop common understandings. But this barrage of very questionable objections and countercharges is just a complete waste of time. How can you expect Armenains to respond positively to this? And do you really think you have any chance of convincing anyone here of anything? no. And BTW - I have given this very same advice to Armenians here and on other forums. So give this some thought OK? I think there is a great deal that a Turks who is non confrontational may pass on to Armenians to increase understanding of many things from the Turkish perspective. Many Armenians will not care or be interested - but you may be surprised. Often each side lables the other as fanatical. I will argue that there are far less fanatical on both sides - even if those who seem fanatical are the most vocal. And for Armenians to just express that the Genocide is real and factual and should be recognized is not a fanatical position. Likewise automatic Turkish denial is not necessarily fanatical - but certainly can be. Each side must realize that there are reasons for the perspectives the other side takes.

[nunechka]

emachine if you are an Armenian supporter, you should not say things like " if *urkey doesnt get in the EU they will kill armenians." It isnt our fault that the *urks are inhumane animals that like to kill people... they did it to us... they are responsible for their own actions...

PLUS they wouldnt dare to set foot into armenia anyway, russia will crush them like a bug
AND it is NOT in the best interest of *urky to do this.

you think armenians are so powerless? just beause we are small in number and we happend to be on the side of honesty, truth, and justice for human rights, doesnt make us powerless. *urky will NEVER touch one armenian soul. they fear us - they fear the ancient armenian lands - they dont let people fly over them... lol!

i love it - when i found out that they dont live in MOST of those lands (NO ONE LIVES THERE) lol! i thought why? and i found out that they think it is cursed...
WELL HERE IS SOME NEWS FOR YOU! - YES IT IS BABY! YES IT IS! GOD INTENDED IT FOR ARMENIANS! - we are true owners of that land. and those lands will bring you bad luck... MAYBE even the GHOST of ANDRANIK PASHA! will come out and you will flee from fear of his ghost. YES IT IS CURSED! you will never swollow this and be content... you will always live in fear of the thoughts of genocide crawling up your back and into your head and festering - the ARMENIAN LANDS will never bring prosperity to you. it is not rightfully yours and you will never feel at home...

[AmericanTurk]

However I think it is a mistake to lump the majority of either Turks or Armenians into this category. While all Armenains are very aware of the Genocide and what it means to them - they are often less concerned with the particualrs on the Turkish side - and this is understandable if you think about it yes? As for Turks - most don't even think or aren't even aware of the Armenains Genocide at all - certianly don't give it any kind of daily thought or even close. At best it is just another small history blurb that is presented to them in the typical mantra we see most Turks here repeating and its accepted as that. Of course there are many Turks who are more aware of this issue (accuratly and otherwise) and I understand how the visibility has been increasing in recent years - and this is a good thing. Still with the great amount of baggage that is carried within the Turkish psyche on this issue it will not be easy to pierce through to the truth and achieve understanding. And of course the issue s far too politicized on either side.

I agree with many things you say. We almost never talk about Armenians or any genocide, the government didn't take seriously these allegations untill the last few years. Of course we learned a little about the subject when ASALA started killing our officials and ambassadors all over the world. Before ASALA, Armenians were just our friends at work, our neighbours etc. (in Turkey)

I worked for an Armenian. He was truly emberrassed at those times. He used to say things like "I would've pulled his liver with my own hands, damn ASALA S.O.B!" I was younger at those times and felt uncomfortable as I never saw him guilty or responsible for what this Armenian Terrorist gang did.

After ASALA was terminated, they went legal and pressed all their forces towards that ridiculous genocide hype. The justice or equity between the two sides was never considered. They wanted to picture Armenians as always the innocent and oppressed side, and the Turks as always the barbarians, blood thirsty thugs. I believe they thought if they pressed hard enough and manage to hide half of the story, (especially after 90 years when it's getting harder and harder to find evidence) they could get something, as the polls in this website clearly show. Those tactics are 100 years old, as the brains that are behind those.

I'm not very anxious to waste a lot of time in this website as it appears there are not enough members who take this matter more seriously than a soccer game. I've spent years by reading sources from Germany, England, Russia etc. I pretty much know what is going on and what is possible and what is not. I hope all the guys here do the same, instead of insisting in listening to only the things that they like, they should try listening to the voice of truth, even if they don't like it.

Part of my ancestors family was killed by Armenian gangs in 1912 however I still have Armenian friends and neighbours, and we still prefer to remember the things that happened in the past with mutual respect, not hatred. This will not change except to get even better.