Opinions of a Turk, or two (hi from Turkey)

[AmericanTurk]

emachine if you are an Armenian supporter, you should not say things like " if *urkey doesnt get in the EU they will kill armenians." It isnt our fault that the *urks are inhumane animals that like to kill people... they did it to us... they are responsible for their own actions...

PLUS they wouldnt dare to set foot into armenia anyway, russia will crush them like a bug
AND it is NOT in the best interest of *urky to do this.

you think armenians are so powerless? just beause we are small in number and we happend to be on the side of honesty, truth, and justice for human rights, doesnt make us powerless. *urky will NEVER touch one armenian soul. they fear us - they fear the ancient armenian lands - they dont let people fly over them... lol!

i love it - when i found out that they dont live in MOST of those lands (NO ONE LIVES THERE) lol! i thought why? and i found out that they think it is cursed...
WELL HERE IS SOME NEWS FOR YOU! - YES IT IS BABY! YES IT IS! GOD INTENDED IT FOR ARMENIANS! - we are true owners of that land. and those lands will bring you bad luck... MAYBE even the GHOST of ANDRANIK PASHA! will come out and you will flee from fear of his ghost. YES IT IS CURSED! you will never swollow this and be content... you will always live in fear of the thoughts of genocide crawling up your back and into your head and festering - the ARMENIAN LANDS will never bring prosperity to you. it is not rightfully yours and you will never feel at home...

Congratulations!

You can enroll to the first terrorist Armenian gang and they will flatter you day and night for having such a wonderful attitude.

Fortunately the majority of Armenians are wise and mature people, so you constitute one unimportant unit from the diversity which is needed in every society.

Fortunately, you are wrong about what you say about so-called Armenian lands. First you are wrong because there's no Armenian lands there. Second you are wrong because it's heavily occupied, but one of your brain-washer daddies gave you the wrong info (as they usually do). I calculated, only in the big cities in the area that you dream as the so-called Armenian land there are more than 8 million people, if we include the small towns and villages may be more than 10 million people.

As always for everyone like you, I hope one day you will wake up and realize that believing in your own lies and living in a world of hatred is not taking you even an inch further. If you don't it will be still your choice, it's nothing better than determination of your own path and style of life, but make sure it's your own path and style. Read English, German and Russian sources, they were there other than Turks and Armenians, you will learn things that you would never even imagined.

[violette829]

Attention to all the turks:


What do you think would have happened if a bunch of us came on your forums and started posting things about the genocide?

::raises hand:::

OH PLEASE PICK ME!!!

Your people would have us banned in an instant.

Does this show you the nature of the Armenians? We are a handful of people who survived our grim history and we STILLLLL allow your opinions and voices to be heard. Please go teach your people of our character.

It's so funny that no matter who you say the word "turk" to, it's like an insult. Doesn't that tell you something?

[winoman]

American Turk - I'm not so sure exactly what it is you agree with my posting other then to acknowledge that most Turks (and I was more meaning inside Turkey) aren't that much aware of the Armenian Genocide - becuase it certainly seems to me that you and I see this issue vastly differently.

First - you are very wrong to claim that your government has not taken Genocide allegations seriously. You fail to understand just how serious your government has been to avoid this subject - internally with its citizens and to the outside world. The current Republic is largely based upon the results of the acts of Genocide commited upon the Armenian people. Your government is terrified for people to understand and acknowledge this - and it is most fearful that if the Turks themselves come to understand this much of the legitimacy of your nation and patriotic myths that most Turks (like yourself) believe will crumble.

You mention ASALA. The reason ASALA is not around today is the opposition to its methods among Diaspora Armenians. One thing ASALA did manage to do - as you correctly allude to - is raise awareness of the Genocide issue worldwide. And I can see how it miht have raised certain awareness within Turkey as well. However you are mistaken to think that only with the rise of ASALA has the Genocide been a recognized issue. And you are really mistaken to try to characterize the Armenian Genocide as "hype" - what can I say - your understanding of this entire issue is quite twisted IMO. You talk about evidence and how Turks are protrayed and there being "another side" - well I understand some of these things - that as a result of the crumbling Ottoman Empire - loss of territory, loss of wars, corruption and mismanagement and so on and so forth - conditions in the Empire were not ideal - and many Turks did experience hardship and loss - such as your own family - and for that I am sympathetic - however - concerning the "equity" issue - well - you are in the small minority - Turks who have directly experienced this type of loss during those ties - particularly at the hands of Armenians - where every Armenian family (certianly of the Diaspora - but in Armenia proper as well) - has the family history of massacre and severe hardship - and not just from 1915 - but from times much earlier as well. I know that many Turks such as yourself blame the Armenians for "revolting" - wanting independence and "stabbing Turks in the back" - but let me tell you - outside of some specific actions on the part of Armenian revolutionaies - that were not widely supported by Armenians at large these were isolated instances. First of all 85-90% of Armenians in Anatolia were apolitical peasents who had no conception of much outside of thier own village and region. Secondly, even Justin McCarthy (in his book - The Ottoman Turks) mentions that nationalism was a failure for the Armenians even prior to WWI - that it did not take hold. Other historians demonstrate that the Armenains political parties - even the Dashnak - were corroperating with the CUP - and that there were good relations between them and the CUP until the CUP turned on them - and even then - these parties were clamoring for rights and relief of oppression (taxation, raids by Kurds, massacre and injustice) - and that they were not pushing for or expecting independence (until after WWI). I even have earlier quotes from Abdul Hamid where he acknowledges the vast loyalty of the Armenains and that those who actually opposed him were very few. So these Turksih claims blaming the Armenains are by and large fabrications - justifications for the horrible acts and the blame needs to lie on the CUP which radicallized and scapegoated the Armenians - saw Armenians as rivals and as a threat to their Pan-Turanic concept and arranged to have them eliminated under the cover of war. So if you look for blame - this is where you must settle - not on the Armenians - this is a false story - it does not hold up to scrutiny. You suggest that we listen - well we have and some of us have investigated this matter much more thoroughly then you might possibly believe. The answers are not at the headline or catch phrase level - they lie much deeper - and this goes for Armenains who just think of Turks as the bloodthirsty barbarian as well. There were many things afoot - and many convergences to lead to this situation. These all need examining - and have been examined. Regardless however - a Genocide against the Armenains was indeed comited by the CUP/Ottoman Turks - using the devices of state power - in fact seizing extorordinary powers over the state to ensure that their mad scheme could be carried out without opposition. The facts prove this out. And that there were Turks who opposed this plan but could do nothing about it also is known -and they voiced their disatisfaction after the war. All of these things are in the records - in fact there is an incredible amount of documentation. So American Turk - is your mind so made up? Or might you be open to discovering the true hitory of these times?

[winoman]

Attention to all the turks:


What do you think would have happened if a bunch of us came on your forums and started posting things about the genocide?

::raises hand:::

OH PLEASE PICK ME!!!

Your people would have us banned in an instant.

This has happend with our own Fadix - he should recount his stories sometime - they are quite incredible.

[winoman]

Read English, German and Russian sources, they were there other than Turks and Armenians, you will learn things that you would never even imagined.

Well aside from prety much disagreeing with everything you said in this post I wish to point out something here. English and Russians were pretty much not in Ottoman Empire during the genocide - though sometimes were able to witness post-events. I doubt that you will find either of their observations to your liking. Additionally the German archives related to the Armenian Genocide are open and in fact are available online. I have posted a link and some exerpts in facts - again - you will be highly disapointed if you think that these archives do not entirely support the contention that there was a Genocide commited upon the Armenians by the Turks (and in fact the Germans repeatedly claim that there is little or no provocation from Armenians to justify any actions against them!!!!). Additionally the US had many official and unofficial representatives in Anatolia throughout the war and there is an incredible collection of eyewitness accounts - with the reports from the various American Consuls who were stationed throughout Anatolia being the most significant observations - again - well you get the idea...

[nunechka]

american*urk please please you are flattering me...

it seems as though your buddies who said "yes we did genocide and if it was today we would kill more" are the one that would actually kill people... THEY SAID IT!

i wouldnt hurt a fly... (well maybe a spider, i get the heebee-jeebees from them)... so, what did i say that sounded like i was a *urk anyway? i didnt say i was going to hurt you or any *urkish person, your buddies said they were going to hurt us... remember that I am an Armenian Girl, i am not *urkish so I would never want to hurt anyone "just because"

and self defence against the *urks during WW1 isnt a war. it is SELF DEFENCE! and i wonder if winoman you are good with archieves, i believe that the *urkish government begin collecting weapons from the Armenians, some years before they executed their evil plan. So let me put it together for the *urks in this forum...

MOST Armenians didnt have weapons because they were collected by the ottoman government before hand.
Officials begin they the genocide by first gathering educators, academians, bankers, wealthy people, elites, etc... and MURDURED THEM.
Official documents about the mannerism in which killings took place clearly show that armenians were at the most disadvantage because not only did they not have weapons but the men were gathered up when the war started and were told that they were going to fight in the war BUT they WERE THEN MASSECRED!
women childern and the elderly were gathered up in churches and the churches were set on fire...
Armenians from diffferent parts hear of this and so they prepare - when the *urkish soldiers arrive in their towns they battle it out - again - remember NO weapons for MOST armenians because they were collected before the war.
- some *urkish soldiers or nationalistic fanatics, religious warriors were killed by the armenians IN SELF DEFENCE.

and half of current turkey IS ARMENIAN LAND! the other half is GREEK!

and unlike most *urks when i read the map i dont assume that it was magically the current way, in the year 2005. the *urks killed a lot of people to get to where they are and to have all this land...

So are any of these are actually *urkish?
- Ani (dated Armenian land 1000 AD)
- Lori (dated Armenian land 1000 AD)
- Musa Ler (dated Armenian land 1000 AD)
- Sebastia (dated Armenian land 387 AD)
- Malatia or Melitene (dated Armenian land 80 BC)
- Kars (dated Armenian land 1000 AD)
- Marash (dated Armenian land 1000 AD)
- Van (dated Armenian - 750 BC)
- Tushpa - (dated Armenian 750 BC)
- Sassoun (dated Armenian land 1000 AD)
- Moush (dated Armenian land 1000 AD)
- Manzikert (dated Armenian land 1000 AD)
- ARARAT (unknown date we just happed to be th ancient civilization that inhabit this area from start to when it was stolen from us)
- Nuvarsak (dated Armenian land 536 AD)
- Zangezur (dated Armenian land 1000 AD)
- Taron (dated Armenian land 150 AD)
- Ashtishat (dated Armenian land 150 AD)
- Sivas (dated Armenian land 1000 AD)
- Cilicia (which was a whole state I have listed some of the city names i remember) (Dated Armenian land 80 BC)
- Erzerum (dated Armenian land 1000 AD)
- Zeitun (dated Armenian land 1000 AD)
- Sis (dated Armenian land 1000 AD)
- Paytakaran (dated Armenian land 150 AD)
- Koghb (dated Armenian land ~1700 AD)
- Nakhichevan (dated Armenian land 80 BC)
- Arshamashat (dated Armenian land 150 BC)
- Zarehavan (dated Armenian land 150 BC)
- Tigranakert (dated Armenian land 80 BC)
- Vaspurakan (dated Armenian land 150 AD)
- Vagharshapat (dated Armenian land 387 AD)
- Tayk (dated Armenian land 150 AD)
- Baghavan (dated Armenian land 387 AD)
- Avarayr (dated Armenian land 536 AD)
- Lambron (dated Armenian land 1200 AD)
- Tarsus (dated Armenian land 1200 AD)
- Vahka (dated Armenian land 1200 AD)
- Dsopk (dated Armenian land 250 AD)

NO! they are ALL ARMENIAN, but guess were they are currently located? in the *urky

how do you think the *urks got all those lands - did people just give it to them? NO! they had to kill MILLIONS! upon MILLIONS! to steal it away.

Starting with year 750 B.C. Armenians have kept maps and some have been saved (despite your governments attempt at destroying everything we had).

[cemil]

İn life, or in social sciences , concepts we talk about, don’t be realised totally, they be realised in a ratio, which was done available by conjuncture.
Winoman you tell that independace aim was not shared by all Armenians, and it seems like you claim pan turanism was the most dominant motive inside Turkey’s birth.
You see these concepts dominant in reality, but we see the opposite as dominant.

Obvius that the bigger picture in our minds, runs our opinions.
You see the falling Ottoman as a complete negative thing and you take out ‘’right to be independant’’ for the minorities,from that frame.
When you look 16th century, you see a huge structure of Ottoman, and later, its falling process for 3 centuries.
You define it as east despotism applied to west. But we see it as synthesis of east and west and a deal between east and west. For example, externalised Armenian community was recognised by Mehmet II in 1461.
[A non official thesis say that, Mehmet II was planning to conqure Italy ( he conqured Otranto), take control of Vatican, accept Christianty, and be Sultan-king of all civilisations. Fundementalist clique in Palace learned this and killed him by poisoning.This doesn’t have to be true and it will not be accepted in Turkey for long surely, but it radically reflects the synthesis concept in our minds,if you know Mehmet called italian painters and made his portraits,when radicals saw painting forbidden for İslam,you can understand better.]
This secular and radical sides had allways been in struggle in empire for coming centuries.You see the eastern-despot effect dominant, but we see it as a militarist invasion creating a synthesis of east and west. If Ottomans didn’t resist Mongolians in 1402, Mongolian invasion could have been more cruel for west.
Thus,we think Turkey is inheritor of Ottoman, in this meaning we understand from Ottoman.
You think the same in the opposite meaning, you relate Turkey with Ottoman’s despotism.
When you look in macro, that mass of structure, got small each century and in WW1 it has got smallest at Anatolia.
Sevres Treaty was plan to declare end of that structure, Turkish politic rule. At this point, we say to our selves as turks, we teach our selves in turkish education,Turk said ‘stop’ to invasion. We reflect the Anatolian population with that Turk word because, skeleton which kept empire together was Turk,or you can say,that structure ‘chose’ to call itself Turk in early 20th century.
At this point, according to the bigger picture we see,the Empire which had got smaller and smaller for centuries, got dense ,as it would no more accept the structure be destroyed.

**
The big picture tells me that,if Soviets didn’t appear in 1917, Sevres treaty would be appiled to Anatolia, and Armenia and Kurdistan would be established. But Bolsheviks managed and history written like it was.
The bigger picture shows me that, if Ottoman army didn’t resist England fleet in Çanakkale, Tsar was going to take help of England,and would fight against Bolsheviks stronger.
The balance ,created between East and West, provided a vacuum for Turkey to be established. It is fact that Soviets helped Kemal forces in Anatolia. Musul and Kerkük was in Turkey according to M.Kemal’s plans, but because of oil resources there,England was ready to fight with its own army.Kemal left there to England. And satisfied by the borders of today. If Soviets were not there, Kemal wouldn’t resist Serves Plan that easily.And If we see the fact,Kerkük and Musul oil was left to England and Batman oil was not left to England, it was because Kemal’s resistance also because that Soviet weight at North.
Apart from this big picture of political events, when you look as more a complete social-scientist, you will see the ideologocial process lying under appearnece of socialism. It is a reflex to capitalism, in a more sociological and economical way. Kemalist Anatolian resistance can not be considered out of socio-economic world history.
Maybe you will not understand what i mean and you will call this aspect stupid etc.. but this is what I see as dominant motive in Turkey’s appearence.
Its the problem. You see our existance as east despotism, we see it east and west meets. You find negative things in our existance, we find more positive things.
Just 12 years ago, 37 artists were given into fire in Sivas, in the name of religion. Kemalism is related to Soviets more than Hitler because of this sociologic fact of modernisation.
Atatürk was nationalist and leftist, but it has nothing to do with Nacional Socialsim of Nazis. You see that relation dominant but we don’t. We call it as , that empire structure becoming smallest in Anatolia, depending on muslim majority on Anatolia, resisting the pressure. Achieveing it weather with help of soviets or not, and exisitng in this land.
You probably call me, trying to fly in the sky higher as much as i can, and find a superior level. You will not reject that fact i mentioned above, a mass of empire getting smaller and smaller each century and stopping in Anatolia.
Turkey’s appearence on this base, whatever you call it, i call it distinguished. You will call soviet help to kemal as militarist help,and nothing more. But i will explain it inside historical materialism.
Well, if you find this point of view not acceptable, your panturanism is same for me.
Each of us has his dialectical aspect,but clear that in your aspect, our role is only eastern despots.
Apart from this explanation i made , everything are details, and when you think, scientists can find out/assume what happened in 5 billions years ago(big bang etc) ,it must not be very difficult to find out what happened 1 life-time ago.
But if you put Turkey on base of racism,pan turanism, east despotism, you will be rejecting turkey’s existance. Winners of WW1 didn’t signed those treaties ,with saying ‘ omg look this turks are how cruel,lets deal with them’
Its a fact that Ottomans crated a big mass connecting 3 continents. It couldn’t be destroyed ,because it just couldn’t have been.
Turkey now exists as a state because of this, more than all cruelity evidances you try to find.

**
You say you kill kurds, i say we had kurdish origined head of parlements,
You say you will not be accepted by EU because ur cruel despots. I say we will not join because they don’t treat Turkey in equilty of states. Greece claims shelf for thier islands in Aegean. But if Turkey claims shelf for Anatolia coasts, Greek islands will be inside that shelf. EU wants Turkey accept these wants from today. But, if Turkey will ever be in EU, all Aegean will be in EU. And there won’t be any problem. But EU wants Turkey to accept these claims before being member. Because of this, Turkey claims equilty. İn every demand.
Relations with Armenia is considered same .

[cemil]

for long decades, kemalism is cancelled in turkey, its another story.

[cemil]

but again, Turkey will make it live , because people of Turkey depends on it more dominantly than any other thing, any other threat to it.

Kemalist turkey appeared, because it had to be appear, and apart from political scene, population of turkey depends on kemalism just like kemalism depended on anatolian people.

[sadi]

PLUS they wouldnt dare to set foot into armenia anyway, russia will crush them like a bug
AND it is NOT in the best interest of *urky to do this.

The same story goes as usual... You are relying on some powers... Big powers always use the littles for their intrests.French did same in Cliccia.They were beaten by Turks and left you with your own fate.Britain did same.Russians used Armenians in the 1877-78 Wars and WW1.The story was the same.All left you then.

Now,you are still trusting them.Some parliamenters are raising their hands for Armenian genocide!No,for Armenian voters.Their governments don't make even one word for the genocide to us.It is incredibly easy for them to raise hands and take votes...

The issue is not Armenian occupation.

But...Yes,we may have intervened 1993 to Armenia for Arezeris.Russia CİS Commander implied that they could intervene also.But,for you!No!No!No! Don't be naive to think in this way.It was for their intrests.And,all has changed in the last decade.Now,we are now trading partners.We have settled a lot of issues.Dou you know trade volume of 2 countries.Dou you know what will it be in the coming decades... dou you know which countries have made military contracts with Turkey?the main countries are the US,Israel and Russia!The Russian-Turkey relations are now too complex,wide, and becoming deeper in every passing year...

On the other hand,it is only impossible for Russia to crush us... NATO had empowered us for 40 years.Why... For a Turkish-Soviet War...The USSR could not crush us even if it was a superpower.Because,the other superpower donate us with every miltary equipment.And,now,Russia... far from the Soviet times....

I want to stress that...

An enemy that you know well always better than one's friend.Because you knows always what your enemy will do!


I am sure that wise Armenian friends will agree with this thread about trusting big powers...