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Harbord Report - American Military Mission to Armenia

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  • Harbord Report - American Military Mission to Armenia

    Maj. Gen. James G. Harbord presented a report to the US secretary of State Lansing in 1920 regarding his 1919 trip to Armenia under the following direction: (exerpts form the report to follow with my bolds)

    "It is desired that you investigate and report on political, military, geographical, administrative, economic, and other considerations involved in possible American interests and responsibilities in that region."

    "The mission traversed Asia Minor for its entire length and the Trans-caucasus from north to south and east to west. All of the Vilayets of Turkish Armenia were visited except Van and Bitlis, which were inaccessible in the time..."

    "The mission spent 30 days in Asia Minor and Transcaucasia, and interviewed at length representatives of every Government exercising sovereignty in that region, as well as individual Turks, Armenians, Greeks, Kurds, Tartars, Georgians, Russians, Persians, Jews, Arabs, British, and French, including Americans for some time domiciled in the country."

    "(Armenians) carried on trades, conducted commerce, and designed and constructed palaces. Nevertheless as a race they were forbidden military service, taxed to poverty, their property confiscated at pleasure, and their women forced into the harems of the conqueror. Such slavery leaves some inevitable and unlovable traces upon the character, but in the main the Armenian preserved his religion, his language, and his racial purity, persecution bringing cohesion."

    "The foregoing (ommited for brevity) inadequately sketches the story of the wrongs of Armenia down to our own times. From 1876 it is a story of massacre and of broken and violated guaranties."

    "...there have been organized official massacres of the Armenians ordered every few years since Abdul Hamid ascended the throne. In 1895, 100,000 perished. At Van in 1908, and at Adana and elsewhere in Cilicia in 1909, over 30,000 were murdered. The last and greatest of these tragedies was in 1915. Conservative estimates place the number of Armenians in Asiatic Turkey in 1914 over 1,500,000, though some make it higher. Massacres and deportations were organized in the spring of 1915 under definite system, the soldiers going from town to town. The official reports of the Turkish Government show 1,100,000 as having been deported. Young men were first summoned to the government building in each village and then marched out and killed. The women, the old men, and children were, after a few days, deported to what Talaat Pasha called “ agricultural colonies,” from the high, cool, breeze-swept plateau of Armenia to the malarial flats of the Euphrates and the burning sands of Syria and Arabia. The dead from this wholesale attempt on the race are variously estimated from 500,000 to more than a million, the usual figure being about 800,000.

    Driven on foot under a fierce summer sun, robbed of their clothing and such petty articles as they carried, prodded by bayonet if they lagged; starvation, typhus, and dysentery left thousands dead by the trail side. The ration was a pound of bread every alternate day, which many did not receive, and later a small daily sprinkling of meal on the palm of the outstretched hand was the only food. Many perished from thirst or were killed as they attempted to slake thirst at the crossing of running streams. Numbers were murdered by savage Kurds, against whom the Turkish soldiery afforded no protection. Little girls of 9 or 10 were sold to Kurdish brigands for a few piastres, and women were promiscuously violated."

    "Of the female refugees among some 75,000 repatriated from Syria and Mesopotamia, we were informed at Aleppo that 40 per cent are infected with venereal disease from the lives to which they have been forced. The women of this race were free from such diseases before the deportation. Mutilation, violation, torture, and death have left their haunting memories in a hundred beautiful Armenian valleys, and the traveler in that region is seldom free from the evidence of this most colossal crime of all the ages."

    "We estimate that there are probably 270,000 Armenians to-day in Turkish Armenia. Some 75,000 have been repatriated from the Syrian and Mesopotamian side...There are in the Transcaucasus probably 300,000 refugees from Turkish Armenia, and some thousands more in other lands, for they have drifted to all parts of the Near East. The orphanages seen throughout Turkey and Russian Armenia testify to the loss of life among adults."

    "On the route traveled by the mission fully 50,000 orphans are to-day receiving Government or other organized care. We estimate a total of perhaps half a million refugee Armenians..."

    "Generally they wear the rags they have worn for four years. Eighty per cent of them suffer from malaria, 10 per cent from venereal troubles, and practically all from diseases that flourish on the frontiers of starvation. There are also the diseases that accompany filth, loathsome skin troubles, and great numbers of sore eyes, the latter especially among the children."

    "On the Turkish side of the border where Armenians have returned they...find things in ruins...Things are little if any better with the peasant Turks in the same region. ... Villages are in ruins, some having been destroyed when the Armenians fled or were deported; some during the Russian advance; some on the retreat of the Armenian irregulars and Russians after the fall of the Empire. Not over 20 per cent of the Turkish peasants who went to war have returned. The absence of men between the ages of 20 and 35 is very noticeable. Six hundred thousand Turkish soldiers died of typhus alone, it is stated, and insufficient hospital service and absolute poverty of supply greatly swelled the death lists.

    ...No crops have been raised for several years and the land ordinarily cultivated has gone to weeds. Scarcely a village or city exists which is not largely in ruins. The country is practically treeless."

    "...the Turk and the Armenian when left without official instigation have hitherto been able to live together in peace. Their existence side by side on the same soil for five centuries unmistakably indicates their interdependence and mutual interest. The aged Vali of Erzerum, a man old in years and in official experience, informed us that in his youth, before massacres began under Abdul Hamid, the Turk and the Armenian lived in peace and confidence...Testimony is universal that the massacres have always been ordered from Constantinople. Some Turkish officials were pointed out to us by American missionaries as having refused to carry out the 1915 order for deportation. That order is universally attributed to the Committee of Union and Progress, of which Enver Bey, Talaat Bey, and Djemal Pasha were the leaders."

    "The events at Smyrna have undoubtedly cheapened every Christian life in Turkey, the landing of the Greeks there being looked upon by the Turks as deliberate violation by the Allies of the terms of their armistice and the probable forerunner of further unwarranted aggression. The moral responsibility for present unrest throughout Turkey is very heavy on foreign powers.

    Meantime, the Armenian, unarmed at the time of the deportations and massacres, a brave soldier by thousands in the armies of Russia, France, and America during the war, is still unarmed in a land where every man but himself carries a rifle."

    "...the Turkish Grand Vizier, Damad Ferid Pasha, in which he admitted for the Turkish Government of the unhappy region under consideration, the commission of “misdeeds which are such as to make the conscience of mankind shudder with horror forever,” and that “Asia Minor is to-day nothing but a vast heap of ruins.” "

    "there has been no case found...in which the establishment of Turkish rule in any country has not been followed by a diminution of prosperity in that country (or) in which the withdrawal of Turkish rule has not been followed by material prosperity and a rise in culture. Never...has the Turk done other than destroy wherever he has conquered. Never has he shown that he is able to develop in peace what he has gained in war. ...as far as the Armenians are concerned, the Turk has had his day and that further uncontrolled opportunity will be denied him." (unfortunatly not to be..)

    "...Georgia is Christian and its Iberian population are in the majority; Azarbaijan is Tartar and Moslem; Armenia is made up of the former provinces that composed Russian Armenia, less the part that went to Azarbaijan in the split, and the majority of its people are the blood brothers of the Armenians of Turkey in Asia. These republics have been recognized by none of the powers except Turkey. The Armenian Republic seeks...a union with the Turkish Armenians and the creation of an Armenian state to include Russian Armenia and the six Turkish Vilayets (Van, Bitlis, Diarbekir, Kharput, Sivas, Erzerum) and Cilicia, to be governed by a mandatory of the great powers during a transition state of a term of years in which Armenians of the dispersion may return to their homes..."

    "Georgia does not hesitate to embargo freight against Armenia, and from her position of vantage simply censors the railroad traffic to that unfortunate country. Azarbaijan controls the fuel supply and combines with Georgia against Armenia, which alone of the three has nothing by which to
    exert leverage. ...An example of the power of Georgia over Armenia is that the latter is not permitted to import either arms or ammunition, though under almost constant menace from its neighbors."

    "Azarbaijan has no educated class capable of well administering a government; Georgia is threatened by bolshevism; Armenia is in ruins, and partial starvation."

    "For generations these peoples have looked to Constantinople as the seat of authority. The most intelligent and ambitious Armenians have sought the capital as a career. The patriarch of the Armenian Church in Constantinople... is in reality the political head of the Armenian people by his location in Constantinople. ...the Armenians reaching before the war the number of 150,000, with business connections...to distant corners of the entire country."

    "The Armenian Patriarch, the head of the Armenian Protestants, and others at Constantinople...volunteered the belief that...to bring Armenia under the same system of administration as that of the Turks would defeat the object of the development of Armenian ideals, “because by assuring the individual rights of a people the national rights and ideals of the same people can not necessarily be assured”

    "The aim of the Nationalist...as stated by Mustapha Kemal Pasha, its head, is the preservation of the territorial integrity of the Empire under a mandatory of a single disinterested power, preferably America. The mission, while at Sivas, had a conference with the chiefs of this party, which held a congress at Erzerum in July and one at Sivas in September. This movement has been the cause of much apprehension on the part of those interested in the fate of the Armenians, to whose safety it has been supposed to portend danger.

    In a statement given out on October 15, Mustapha Kemal said:

    The Nationalist Party recognized the necessity of the aid of an impartial foreign country. It is our aim to secure the development of Turkey as she stood at the armistice. We have no expansionist plans, but it is our conviction that Turkey can be made a rich and prosperous country if she can get a good government. Our Government has become weakened through foreign interference and intrigues. After all our experience we are sure that America is the only country able to help us. We guarantee no new Turkish violences against the Armenians will take place.""

    The events of the Greek occupation of Smyrna and the uneasiness produced by the activities and propaganda of certain European powers have so stirred the Turkish people...that the mission fears that an announcement from Paris at this time of an intention to carve from Turkey a State of Armenia, unless preceded by a strong military occupation of the whole Empire, might be the signal for massacres of Christians in every part of the country. There is no wisdom in now incorporating Turkish territory in a separate Armenia, no matter what the aspirations of the Armenians."

    "...to carve an independent Armenia from the Ottoman Empire there is something to be said on the part of the Turk; namely, that his people even when all the refugees shall have returned to their homes, will be in the majority in the region contemplated for a reconstituted Armenia—and they were in the majority before the deportations took place—even though due, as it may be, to the gerrymandering of provincial boundaries and the partial extermination of a people."

    "The Armenian is not guiltless of blood himself; his memory is long and reprisals are due, and will doubtless be made if opportunity offers. Racially allied to the wild Aryan Kurd he is cordially hated by the latter.

    ...the capacity of the Armenian to govern himself is something to be tested under supervision. With that still in doubt the possibility of an Armenian minority being given authority over a Moslem majority against whom its hearts are filled with rancor for centuries of tyranny, may well justify apprehension. There are very many who believe that the best elements of the Armenian race have perished. It is believed that with the reestablishment of order in their native country many of those who have emigrated to other countries will return. That, however, can only come with time, and even then it is doubted if many of the wealthy and influential Armenians long domiciled in happier lands will return to their somewhat primitive ancient home, even though such absentees have raised their voices most loudly for an autonomous Armenia."

    "...Against such combination of authority and postponement of delimitation of boundaries is to be weighed the unchangeable belief of many that the Turk at the end of his tutelage will still be the Turk, bloodthirsty, unregenerate, and revengeful, and that it is unthinkable that Armenia shall ever again form part of a country which may be governed by him; that the sufferings of centuries should now be terminated by definite and permanent separation of Armenia from Turkey"

    "The conclusion of the American military mission to Armenia is that the remedy for the existing conditions in Armenia and the Transcaucasus is a mandatory control to be exercised by a single-great power."

    (skipped 2 sections with costs and administrative concerns of a proposed mandate)

    "Very alarming reports had been received from Transcaucasia for several months...as to organized attacks by the Turkish Army impending along the old international border between Turkey and Russia" (ominous that...)

  • #2
    the Armenian preserved his religion, his language, and his racial purity, persecution bringing cohesion.
    Suppose a Scotland speaking Gaelic/Celtic. Who were more tolerant British to Scottish, or Turkish to Armenian?

    In colonial age, in a very short time -one-two centuries- languages and religions of entire continents (South America, most of Africa) lost, because of repression/persecution. There were not such a thing in Ottoman Turkey.

    "We estimate that there are probably 270,000 Armenians to-day in Turkish Armenia. Some 75,000 have been repatriated from the Syrian and Mesopotamian side...There are in the Transcaucasus probably 300,000 refugees from Turkish Armenia, and some thousands more in other lands, for they have drifted to all parts of the Near East.
    Maj. Gen. James G. Harbord is counting zombies here, who must be dead according to wino g a y.

    Massacres (questionable) and deportations were organized in the spring of 1915 under definite system, the soldiers going from town to town. The official reports of the Turkish Government show 1,100,000 as having been deported.
    This text reminds me of wino g a y's denial of "deportation "

    "On the route traveled by the mission fully 50,000 orphans are to-day receiving Government or other organized care. We estimate a total of perhaps half a million refugee Armenians..."
    Government must be mad,she wants to kill Armenians, but giving care to Armenian orphans.

    Not over 20 per cent of the Turkish peasants who went to war have returned.
    Turkish government must have killed Turks as well !!!



    Six hundred thousand Turkish soldiers died of typhus alone, it is stated, and insufficient hospital service and absolute poverty of supply greatly swelled the death lists.
    Maybe this was the reason for non-existence of protection for deporties.
    Numbers were murdered by savage Kurds, against whom the Turkish soldiery afforded no protection.
    "Generally they wear the rags they have worn for four years. Eighty per cent of them suffer from malaria, 10 per cent from venereal troubles, and practically all from diseases that flourish on the frontiers of starvation. There are also the diseases that accompany filth, loathsome skin troubles, and great numbers of sore eyes, the latter especially among the children."
    Opps..Turkish government killed all Armenians, on whom you observed this fable-like disease sh i t!!! This is purely Turkish propaganda. There were no Armenians there to see infected with disease !!!

    Some Turkish officials were pointed out to us by American missionaries as having refused to carry out the 1915 order for deportation. That order [of deportaion] is universally attributed to the Committee of Union and Progress, of which Enver Bey, Talaat Bey, and Djemal Pasha were the leaders."
    This text reminds me of winogay.

    These republics have been recognized by none of the powers except Turkey.
    Shame on Turkey, it is the first government ever to recognize an independent Armenia.

    Azarbaijan has no educated class capable of well administering a government; Georgia is threatened by bolshevism; Armenia is in ruins, and partial starvation."
    Ohh.. if we follow the sickmind of wino g a y, then we must say that the Armenian Republic's rulers must be cooperating with CUP leaders to exterminate Armenians from starvation.

    Starvation was not a policy. It was the fact of Anatolia and caucasus at that time. People in my village (Turks) in mountainous Cilicia eat tree roots not to die from starvation. But some of them died because human body is not built to digest wood.


    "...to carve an independent Armenia from the Ottoman Empire there is something to be said on the part of the Turk; namely, that his people even when all the refugees shall have returned to their homes, will be in the majority in the region contemplated for a reconstituted Armenia—and they were in the majority before the deportations took place
    This was the reason why Armenian bands massacred Turks/Kurds in the region: to change the regions population balance, thus, claim a self-determination.

    "The Armenian is not guiltless of blood himself; his memory is long and reprisals are due, and will doubtless be made if opportunity offers.
    Good catch. Remember the "opportunities": wartime situation, advancing russian army, French occupation forces in Cilicia etc

    wino g a y, the clever man, the Almighty,

    i dont know, i admit, as much as you know, but you dont know how to read your texts. You comment all text to support your claim. If you tried to be impartial a bit, you would be more helpfull to the Armenian people.

    i suspect you changed sides (because Armenians are not thankful to you for defending their case, and you want to try your luck with turks) or you lost your mind.

    Last two document (this one and Hitler fable) you posted here actully the ones that Turks use for "denial".

    Comment


    • #3
      liar

      Originally posted by winoman
      "...there have been organized official massacres of the Armenians ordered every few years since Abdul Hamid ascended the throne. In 1895, 100,000 perished. At Van in 1908, and at Adana and elsewhere in Cilicia in 1909, over 30,000 were murdered. The last and greatest of these tragedies was in 1915. Conservative estimates place the number of Armenians in Asiatic Turkey in 1914 over 1,500,000, though some make it higher. Massacres and deportations were organized in the spring of 1915 under definite system, the soldiers going from town to town. The official reports of the Turkish Government show 1,100,000 as having been deported. Young men were first summoned to the government building in each village and then marched out and killed. The women, the old men, and children were, after a few days, deported to what Talaat Pasha called “ agricultural colonies,” from the high, cool, breeze-swept plateau of Armenia to the malarial flats of the Euphrates and the burning sands of Syria and Arabia. The dead from this wholesale attempt on the race are variously estimated from 500,000 to more than a million, the usual figure being about 800,000.
      winoman do you believe everything that you read? or do you believe every so-called genocide propaganda? or is it you writing this mess?

      Actually he's twisting the truth. We know that armenian nationalists revolted (with christian/freedom propaganda) more than 40 times and armenian people helped them and they took side with our enemy russians during 1877-1915. If you don't believe go and investigate Tasnak, Hincak, Ram-Gavar and others... winoman doesn't have any proof for his writing because it is absolutely lie.

      winoman is provocateur of diaspora and misleading people on this forum. Don't take his writings serious...
      Question to brainless diaspora freak: where are your archives?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by thinktwice
        winoman do you believe everything that you read? or do you believe every so-called genocide propaganda?
        *Oh no, no, no, no! We would NEVER believe everything we read from a wide variety of sources! We believe only that which comes from Turkey, and Turkish archives! The defense of the accused/guilty: Now THAT'S where the TRUTH is!

        And your issues of Armenians revolting/rebeling have been addressed several times by the Armenians on this forum. If you don't have anything constructive or new to add to surrebuttal those answers (instead of continously ignoring those answers), please stop wasting our time and bandwidth by constantly repeating your argument like a parrot of the Turkish variety.


        *Disclaimer for the truly slow, and ignorant: These remarks are sheer sarcasm.

        Comment


        • #5
          Good job, Crimson. Golden fez for you.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Crimson Glow
            Oh no, no, no, no! We would NEVER believe everything we read from a wide variety of sources! We believe only that which comes from Turkey, and Turkish archives! The defense of the accused/guilty: Now THAT'S where the TRUTH is!

            And your issues of Armenians revolting/rebeling have been addressed several times by the Armenians on this forum. If you don't have anything constructive or new to add to surrebuttal those answers (instead of continously ignoring those answers), please stop wasting our time and bandwidth by constantly repeating your argument like a parrot of the Turkish variety.

            *Disclaimer for the truly slow, and ignorant: These remarks are sheer sarcasm.
            Why don't you come up with real Tasnak, Hincak, Ram-Gavar archives crimson glow? Maybe then i can understand and address Armenian's revolt/rebel issues eh? Why don't you open your archives common? oh you don't have any? sure you have...

            winoman posting constructive messages and you are following him/her. Nothing new. Do you know what? I didn't impress with your constructive posts either. You are constantly denying every piece of Turkish History.

            Originally posted by TomServo
            Good job, Crimson. Golden fez for you.
            What a mess of diaspora, just licking each other.
            Last edited by thinktwice; 05-16-2005, 02:41 AM.
            Question to brainless diaspora freak: where are your archives?

            Comment


            • #7
              Only those who are not afraid of the truth should read, the rest don't need to bother themselves.

              The excerpts below were taken from a speech of Justin McCarthy, an American historian:




              "..The worst suffering of Erzurum's Muslims only came once the Russians had left. During the Russian Revolution the Russian soldiers simply left Anatolia and walked home. They left behind a small group of officers and a large number of Armenian soldiers. The Armenians wished to make Erzurum a part of the Greater Armenian they had always dreamed of. They could not do so if Erzurum was more than three-fourths Muslim. They therefore began a policy of murder and forced migration of the Muslims of Erzurum, just as they were doing to the Azeri Turks in Erivan.."

              "..The Ottoman Army stepped in to retake Erzurum and to stop the slaughter of the Turks. The Armenians could not stand against them. They retreated, and in their retreat killed all the Muslims they could find..."



              "...An Austrian journalist on the scene reported:

              All the villages from Trabzon to Erzincan and from Erzincan to Erzurum are destroyed. Corpses of Turks brutally and cruelly slain are everywhere. I am now in Erzurum, and what I see is terrible. Almost the whole city is destroyed. The smell of corpses still fills the air..."


              "...The Armenians were retreating before the Ottoman Army. They were in danger. Yet they stopped whenever they could to kill the innocent Muslims of Erzurum, despite the risk to their own safety. This kind of hatred and madness cannot be explained. It is often falsely claimed that the Turks committed a genocide of the Armenians. Yet this was the real genocide, a genocide of the Turks..."

              Comment


              • #8
                AmericanTurk - it has never been denied that some Armenians killed Turks - in fact I left in that part of the Harbord report on purpose - do you think I didn't read it. That is not the point - the few killings by some Armenians - almost all entirely after the 1915-1916 period I might add - does not equate to the deliberate Turkish government plans to exterminate the Armenains that is well documented from multiple sources - including Turkish allies and the post war trials - very clearly proven. And speaking of - one Austrian (Turkish ally) who has witnessed Armenian atrocities and bases his conclusions on such - well well - OK - but that you blindly accept such (without thinking what his motivations might be) and that his testimony - while potentially accurate - is not much corroborated - particularly in the pre-Genocide period and during - well - you cannot discount the incredible collection of corroborated eyewitness testimony to the Genocide then - no?

                Oh and as for McCarthy - he is esentially a known and admitted fabricator. Not that some of his points don't have certain merit - but he streaches quite a bit and his population numbers and other figures inparticualr have been proven incorrect from a number of sources - including from those who study such things that are unconnected to the Armenian Genocide in any way.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by winoman
                  AmericanTurk - it has never been denied that some Armenians killed Turks - in fact I left in that part of the Harbord report on purpose - do you think I didn't read it. That is not the point - the few killings by some Armenians - almost all entirely after the 1915-1916 period I might add
                  It's more than "a few", actually a few hundred thousand Turks killed by Armenians.

                  Everything (killings of Turks) didn't take place only during 1915-1916, my ancestors moved out of Erzurum vicinity in 1912 because of the Armenian threat.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by RookieArcher
                    Suppose a Scotland speaking Gaelic/Celtic. Who were more tolerant British to Scottish, or Turkish to Armenian?

                    In colonial age, in a very short time -one-two centuries- languages and religions of entire continents (South America, most of Africa) lost, because of repression/persecution. There were not such a thing in Ottoman Turkey.
                    I totally fail to understand your point here. Are you trying to say something about the Millyet system - that the Ottomans basically had to resort to if they were to have a nation and not just a wasteland. That the Armenians prospered in many respects is not in doubt - however when they began to prosper too much and leave the (uneducated & unskilled) Turks behind is when they truly suffered. Additionally the (successful) attempts by the Sultan to settle Kurds, Circassians and Tarters into the Armenian heartland and to drive out Armenians through various repressive policies and encouragement of harrassment towards Armenians on the part of the Muslims is also well known - though I supose not by you and your fellow Turkish (so-called) historians here...


                    Originally posted by RookieArcher
                    Maj. Gen. James G. Harbord is counting zombies here, who must be dead according to wino g a y.
                    Yes - show us your sensitivity. Where are Armenians in Anatolia today? Sure some escaped...but it is documented how most were killed or forced to die.

                    Originally posted by RookieArcher
                    This text reminds me of wino g a y's denial of "deportation "
                    Deportation was shown to be a policy of extermination. This was the plan and the outcome - my blind, deaf & dumb denier Turk. In fact there is much testimony and observation on how much more nasty this was as opposed to outright massacre and how the "deporation" - enacted with lies and promisses to trick the unsuspecting Armenians - was a perfect way to decimate the population that would have more resisted outright massacre and it actually took less resources. Of course there was massacre - of the men - and of the women, children and ederly en-route (repeatedly set upon as they were driven through areas of hostile muslims villages) - there are hundreds if not thousands of eywitness accounts (and confessions as well BTW) - including from German and American and other (even many Turkish) observers - who BTW - see with there own eyes - thoguh I supose you will claim they were wearing special Armenian supplied glasses that blocked out the food and care the Turks were givimg to the Armenians en-route and instead showed horrible punishments and depravities - yes that must be the reason they reported such things - eh?

                    Originally posted by RookieArcher
                    Government must be mad,she wants to kill Armenians, but giving care to Armenian orphans.
                    There were some government orphanages for Turkish children who lost parents...hopwever the vast majority were mission orphanages and these held many thousands of Armenian orphans. There is as well incredible amounts of documsntation of this - includign efforts on the part of the Turks to claim these (Armenain speaking) orphans were in fact Turkish (they wanted to claim them as Turks - partially to deny they were Armenian - hm - just where did all these Armenian orphans come from?) - etc - again all documented - so you can go ahead and make up what you want to believe...

                    Originally posted by RookieArcher
                    Turkish government must have killed Turks as well !!!
                    Many Turks died in war - all able bodied men were drafted and battles were fought East, West, South etc - so yes many deaths (who ever denied this?) - who BTW got Turkey into the war eh? And for what ambitions?


                    Originally posted by RookieArcher
                    Maybe this was the reason for non-existence of protection for deporties.
                    Funny how Ottoman archives record the almost extravagent care and feeding of hundreds of thousands of Muslim refugees from several fronts...yet nothing for the Armenians (deliberatly) - even with so-called edicts to do so - as the existance of (a great many) "secret orders" to the contrary are very well known. (see post war Tribunals as well as multitude of German acknowledgement of such...)


                    Originally posted by RookieArcher
                    Opps..Turkish government killed all Armenians, on whom you observed this fable-like disease sh i t!!! This is purely Turkish propaganda. There were no Armenians there to see infected with disease !!!
                    Never said that - the reports of cholera at Armenian concentration camps is abundent...as are the eywitness accounts of slaughters and deliberate starvation and other excesses commited against the Armenian women and children on these routes and in these camps. yeah some heart you have - some interest in feeling our suffering...

                    Originally posted by RookieArcher
                    Shame on Turkey, it is the first government ever to recognize an independent Armenia.
                    Again - your ignorance of history is no case - you may have heard the term - ignorance is no excuse - we will amend that - except for when such is used by Turks to deny the Genocide and any crimes of their nation and related historical events. Research your self dumb a s s....yes - why would Turkey recognize Armenia (of course then invade it and such...)

                    Originally posted by RookieArcher
                    Ohh.. if we follow the sickmind of wino g a y, then we must say that the Armenian Republic's rulers must be cooperating with CUP leaders to exterminate Armenians from starvation.

                    Starvation was not a policy. It was the fact of Anatolia and caucasus at that time. People in my village (Turks) in mountainous Cilicia eat tree roots not to die from starvation. But some of them died because human body is not built to digest wood.
                    Look ignoramus - No doubt the deplorable conditions led to much starvation - stupid CUP - they call a general draft of all Ottoman males - right before harvest time! This great thinking was decried at the time - but they had little thought for the consequences - and for the consequences of uprooting all the peasent Armenians who were feeding a good portion of the nation...so yes starvation - whose to wonder - but again - the Genocide was witnessed and the numbers who dies is well known...and starvation - though a cause - and a cause that was deliberatly enacted was one of the causes of death - but not at all the only one. And I find it funny that you Tuyrks claim that the CUP sent out all these orders to feed and care for Armenians - so they knew this wasn;t possible eh? But they said they were doing so to the world - etc etc - you figure it out...


                    Originally posted by RookieArcher
                    This was the reason why Armenian bands massacred Turks/Kurds in the region: to change the regions population balance, thus, claim a self-determination.
                    If 1/10 of 1/100 of a percent of Armenians believed this possible (and less acted on it) - I would still be surprised. (facts don't support this - even Dashnaks were not for seperation until after the Genocide - etc) Give us a break - we are not stupid. Most Armenians had no concept of anything outside of their town or village. And of the Armenians who had a bigger picture very very few had any ideas of this sort. It just wasn't a possibility. Yeah sounds good (to you Turks - oh look what they were trying to do! - bad Armenians - they betrayed us - they have always wanted OUR lands - etc - yeah right...)....but it never f'in happend a s e h o l e!

                    Originally posted by RookieArcher
                    Good catch. Remember the "opportunities": wartime situation, advancing russian army, French occupation forces in Cilicia etc
                    Yes after the Turks proved they had no right to govern. I mean come on now - yeah kill 2/3-3/4 of all of our Armenian population. And can you blame Armenians for being a bit leary of wanting to become citizens of a Turkish state - giv eme a break. SO yes - after the Genocide there could be no concept of Armenains living under Turks - especially since the Nationalist were essentially the CUP with a new name and leader...

                    Originally posted by RookieArcher
                    wino g a y, the clever man, the Almighty,

                    i dont know, i admit, as much as you know, but you dont know how to read your texts. You comment all text to support your claim. If you tried to be impartial a bit, you would be more helpfull to the Armenian people.
                    I have no fear of laying out the data and examining it. You (and your fellow Turks here) just have proven no capacity for the later. I have provided ample evidence and posts that deserve some real comment and discussion and you all respond with the same regurgitated gray wolf gobble gobble that has no context or meaning that does not refute a thing I put foreward. So go ahead continue to be stupid, And I laugh at your comment that I am not impartial or am not "helping the Armenian people" etc - look at your self dumb f u c k !

                    Originally posted by RookieArcher
                    i suspect you changed sides (because Armenians are not thankful to you for defending their case, and you want to try your luck with turks) or you lost your mind.
                    Changed sides? Yeah right...I have always been consistent. When Armenains attack me it is primarily because I discount the idea of re-claiming lands and I refuse to call (all) Turks barbarians and I have nice things to say about Ataturk (and Turks in general) - that sort of thing. I assure you my mind is quite clear on this issue - little gobbler.

                    Originally posted by RookieArcher
                    Last two document (this one and Hitler fable) you posted here actully the ones that Turks use for "denial".
                    Funny how I easily cut through your propoganda. Hitler quote is about as real as it gets - not that it is any material for proving the Genocide. Even if the quote could be disproven - and its doubtful that this is possible - it really says nothing about the Genocide itself. As for Harbords observations - I think that they are first rate for the most part. He was clearly trying to be balanced and as accurate as possible. Did you actually read it? I know some of you have real problems with English comprehension - and I'm trying to not hold it against you - but I really think your problems are even more fundemental than reading comprhension...

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