What would have happened today if the Armenians were not displaced from Turkey?

[TomServo]

Armenian GOOD, Turkish BAD. The ultimate intelligent approach ?
My congratulations.

Genocide bad.

[cumanicus]

I recommend my fellow Turks in this forum to make an emphaty with Armenians instead of sending nationalistic posts. As a Turk I know your feelings. I know how diaspora people only post hatred and stereotypes. But there is a more important point here. All Armenian culture in Turkey is disapeared now. Today there is only 50.000 Armenians left in Turkey. They lost everything, their homes, lands, their cultural heritage, and more important is they lost their families. These people here are the grandchildren of the ones who survived from 1915. No matter how you call it as genocide, massacre, deportation, civil war,…Finally there is only one result, Armenians dissapeared from Anatolia. They are spread all over the world. What would you feel if you were at their position. Forget ASALA, forget racist campains, just focus on this. Finally, there is no meaning to come here and argue with these people. There is only one thing that we have to do: we have to apologize from these people. Can we solve the problems with a sorry? No, but it is a good start.

[winoman]

Thank you Cumanicus.

[bell-the-cat]

Can we solve the problems with a sorry? No, but it is a good start.

What do you, as a Turk, think the problems are?

[The Mad Turk]

What do you, as a Turk, think the problems are?

I think he will proposes us Turks to give the Eastern Anatolia to Armenians and Western Anatolia to Greeks,and Ankara region to Turks.Plus 100 biillion dolllars to repair the new historic great Armenia.You know our last sutan has accepted this proposal in those days.You an he probably wish if Atatürk has nerver existed.

To put what happened in the history correctly and accept it is something different and make an idiotic proposal like this especially from a person who calls himself a Turk is something very different.To me an Armenian who wont ask land or money from Turkey can be a friend,otherwise an enemy for sure.

[loveataturk]

cumanicus did not propose us to give anything to anybody....except for showing a "HUMANE" understanding of the sorrow that we caused other people. I love Turkey and Turkish people no less than you, Mad Turk. I also served as a soldier, and would not, and today still will not, hesitate to decimate anyone who tries to harm my country. But, in the case of Armenians, they did not deserve the extremely harsh treatment they got from us. If you put Turkish wrongs and Armenian wrongs in a balance, we end up the relative gainers from the tragedies.
We certainly can apologize, and certainly can AFFORD to try and MEND and if necessary PAY at least some compensation, give back homes, schools to Armenians of anatolia.
Important question: DO YOU REALLY THINK TURKEY IS A BETTER PLACE WITHOUT OUR ARMENIAN INGREDIENT? My answer would be, NO.

[Thai-Samurai]

acceptance and a sign of good will, will go an extremely long way for Armenians. Maybe even start another Armenian Turkish alliance. Turkey being a neighbor of course Armenia can profit from this. But you guys have to fully understand our pain, and stop sheding justifications or excuses or downplaying what happened. And that is going to take a very long time.
Besides I have a plan for world peace but it's going to take 5-10 years to fully implement, so keep up the good job of maturing, and striving for enlightenment.

[cumanicus]

What do you, as a Turk, think the problems are?

Well, actually there is no problem. The Armenian question is solved from our side. It is finaliesd with a tragedy. I don’t believe the desperate efforts of Armenian diaspora willreach to a point. Turkey will not grant eastern anatolia to Armenia. And Armenia could not gain those lands back from Turkey by military, politically or any other way. These are unrealistic options. 500.000, 1 million or 1.5 million, however you count the losses will not come back. Armenian culture at anatolia will not turn back before 1915. And more important is Armenians and Turks will not become brothers. At least not now. Maybe we need another century to forget the pains.
But, we can learn to live side by side together again. Turkey is the one who have to take the first step. So you will ask which step? Well, I don’t believe that put political pressure Turkey at international arena to accept 1915 as genocide will bring us a place. We, Turks are arrogant people about our history and we never accept genocide by power or terror or else. It is up to Turkish society to discuss about history and face with 1915. And we already started to do this. Unfortunately nationalistic and sometimes racist actions of diaspora Armenians do not help this. Maybe you can help to this process by facing with your reality, too. I sadly observe that only thing remains from history to your collective minds are the genocide. Thiss can be understandable to a point, but our mutual history do not consist of only 1915 or Hamidian troops at 1895-96. We created a unique Ottoman society together. Accept or not, Armenians as a minority lived under a great tolerance at Ottoman Empire is you compare the situation of other minorities or other European Empires at those times. Of course everything was not perfect, do not expect a democracy at 15.-19. centuries at anywhere. But what I want to point is that maybe you have to make the emphaty for Turks , too which we do not make for you yet.
Finally, my point is: this Armenian case will be solved in Turkish society and between Turks and Armenians, not by international force. Both nations suffered much from the intervenes of big powers at history. Agree or not I believe that big powers or that time, UK, France, Russia and Gernay are the reason of 1915. Ottoman Empire would collapse for sure. But if the interventions of those powers would not exist, today may be different.

[winoman]

Good to talk and appreciate the sentiments - but...

you fall back to much of the same Turkish arguments and perspectives which are more false then true...try to break yourself from this if you can and obtain a better understanding of this issue...and of us...and of past and of our possible future....

The Armenian question is solved from our side.

this is true

It is finaliesd with a tragedy.

It is a tragedy to admit the truth? This I don't understand...

I don’t believe the desperate efforts of Armenian diaspora willreach to a point. Turkey will not grant eastern anatolia to Armenia.

I think you have been reading too much Turkish propoganda...

And Armenia could not gain those lands back from Turkey by military, politically or any other way. These are unrealistic options.

For the most part true and not an option - not even part of any realistic debate. I do wish Turks (and some/crtain Armenians) would start to talk facts and real things and not ridiculous hypotheticals. I mean why don't we just discuss the possibility of the Souix nation rising up, wiping out DC and taking over South Dakota...I think our time can be spent more wisely then is useless debate over non-issues...

500.000, 1 million or 1.5 million, however you count the losses will not come back. Armenian culture at anatolia will not turn back before 1915.

True this can never happen and you also were correct before when you pointed to the truth of the obliteration of our culture/nation and people - this is at the heart of the issue - both the truth of what happened and the source of our extremem pain. (and why this issue will never go away)

And more important is Armenians and Turks will not become brothers. At least not now. Maybe we need another century to forget the pains.
But, we can learn to live side by side together again. Turkey is the one who have to take the first step.

Agree and yes.

So you will ask which step? Well, I don’t believe that put political pressure Turkey at international arena to accept 1915 as genocide will bring us a place. We, Turks are arrogant people about our history and we never accept genocide by power or terror or else. It is up to Turkish society to discuss about history and face with 1915. And we already started to do this.

Understood - but there is no incentive for you to move on this without pressure or at leasat without major cultural/societal changes - among the people and with the government. People respond and are led by the government (and controlled media) in many respects - though possible for other avenues where people might come to the realization and force the government - education is key - and where is this obtained and how?

Unfortunately nationalistic and sometimes racist actions of diaspora Armenians do not help this.

A minority - like yours - but vocal - like yours. Don't be a fool and give in to the easy assumptions that this is also reality - understand the dynamics and open your eyes/ears to other (more credible) voices and don't limit your understanding of this issue to the positions of extremists - sure its easier - because it means you don't have to change anything - but its a sure fire failure and leaves us with nothing bt more conflict.

Maybe you can help to this process by facing with your reality, too. I sadly observe that only thing remains from history to your collective minds are the genocide. Thiss can be understandable to a point, but our mutual history do not consist of only 1915 or Hamidian troops at 1895-96.

Educated Armenians fully understand this - still - for us - the genocide is a major obstacle - this should be understandable...

We created a unique Ottoman society together. Accept or not, Armenians as a minority lived under a great tolerance at Ottoman Empire is you compare the situation of other minorities or other European Empires at those times.

This is tru on a level but is not the entire reality - much of whic consisted of exploitation and unequal treatment (institutionalized 2nd class status) and really only recently (19th century) were Armenians (in any kind of numbers etc) really included into the dominant society

Of course everything was not perfect, do not expect a democracy at 15.-19. centuries at anywhere. But what I want to point is that maybe you have to make the emphaty for Turks , too which we do not make for you yet.

Empathy? We have an appreciation of the dynmaics of the situation from the Turkish side and the factors - past and present - but again very difficult to have "empathy" per se - under the current situation and considering the Genocide and its continued and current denial....

Finally, my point is: this Armenian case will be solved in Turkish society and between Turks and Armenians, not by international force.

This is like telling us to go away until Turks evolve to the next stage of evolutionary development. Please ask yourself - if Turks were in the reverse situation woould they do and act and feel any different?

Both nations suffered much from the intervenes of big powers at history.

This is a cop out argument and is tangental to the issue - admit it for once...I really want to hear it and see the light bub of understanding - not the same tired arguments that only make me want to hate you.

Agree or not I believe that big powers or that time, UK, France, Russia and Gernay are the reason of 1915. Ottoman Empire would collapse for sure. But if the interventions of those powers would not exist, today may be different.

Your understanding of these events and factors is obviously quite superficial. For instance - if not for the intervention of Bitian 9and to a lesse extent France and perhaps Italy) Ottoman EMpire would have fallen (to the Russians) much sooner. And you cannot blame the Ottomaon's troubles on the West - if they had the wherewithal to adapt and survive they would not have been on the state that they were in - it has nothing directly to do with the West. etc - and none of these nations or reasons had anything directly to do with the Armenian genocid - save perhaps the Germans - and that is perhaps another very long discussion - and perhaps the West can be blamed for not being more aggresive earlier to stop the abuses. That they may have encouraged minorities to rise against the ottomans and participated in such (with Greeks/Bulgarians and later Arabs) and such and perhaps were the source of some (false) hope and encouragment for the Armenians still does not justify the extreme reaction taken by the CUP - nor the prior massacres by Abdul hamid - if both would have reacted differently they would have seen that Armenians would have been allies - had much to gain within a reformed Ottoman system and more to lose with European (Russian et al) intervention and take over. Most Armenians understood this. it was the Turks who pushed too far - repeatedly - in an effort to maintian drastically unequal dominence and continued servitude by the minorities - it was ultimatly the entire system of exploitation that brought the Ottomans down and cause the suffering for the Armenians - before - during and now...

[Thai-Samurai]

nice wino.