What would have happened today if the Armenians were not displaced from Turkey?

[winoman]

Yes I say we will never give an inch to those Soiux - who do they think they are demanding American land (USA, USA, USA!!).

[cumanicus]

you fall back to much of the same Turkish arguments and perspectives which are more false then true...try to break yourself from this if you can and obtain a better understanding of this issue...and of us...and of past and of our possible future....



this is true



It is a tragedy to admit the truth? This I don't understand...



I think you have been reading too much Turkish propoganda...



For the most part true and not an option - not even part of any realistic debate. I do wish Turks (and some/crtain Armenians) would start to talk facts and real things and not ridiculous hypotheticals. I mean why don't we just discuss the possibility of the Souix nation rising up, wiping out DC and taking over South Dakota...I think our time can be spent more wisely then is useless debate over non-issues...



True this can never happen and you also were correct before when you pointed to the truth of the obliteration of our culture/nation and people - this is at the heart of the issue - both the truth of what happened and the source of our extremem pain. (and why this issue will never go away)



Agree and yes.



Understood - but there is no incentive for you to move on this without pressure or at leasat without major cultural/societal changes - among the people and with the government. People respond and are led by the government (and controlled media) in many respects - though possible for other avenues where people might come to the realization and force the government - education is key - and where is this obtained and how?



A minority - like yours - but vocal - like yours. Don't be a fool and give in to the easy assumptions that this is also reality - understand the dynamics and open your eyes/ears to other (more credible) voices and don't limit your understanding of this issue to the positions of extremists - sure its easier - because it means you don't have to change anything - but its a sure fire failure and leaves us with nothing bt more conflict.



Educated Armenians fully understand this - still - for us - the genocide is a major obstacle - this should be understandable...



This is tru on a level but is not the entire reality - much of whic consisted of exploitation and unequal treatment (institutionalized 2nd class status) and really only recently (19th century) were Armenians (in any kind of numbers etc) really included into the dominant society



Empathy? We have an appreciation of the dynmaics of the situation from the Turkish side and the factors - past and present - but again very difficult to have "empathy" per se - under the current situation and considering the Genocide and its continued and current denial....




This is like telling us to go away until Turks evolve to the next stage of evolutionary development. Please ask yourself - if Turks were in the reverse situation woould they do and act and feel any different?



This is a cop out argument and is tangental to the issue - admit it for once...I really want to hear it and see the light bub of understanding - not the same tired arguments that only make me want to hate you.



Your understanding of these events and factors is obviously quite superficial. For instance - if not for the intervention of Bitian 9and to a lesse extent France and perhaps Italy) Ottoman EMpire would have fallen (to the Russians) much sooner. And you cannot blame the Ottomaon's troubles on the West - if they had the wherewithal to adapt and survive they would not have been on the state that they were in - it has nothing directly to do with the West. etc - and none of these nations or reasons had anything directly to do with the Armenian genocid - save perhaps the Germans - and that is perhaps another very long discussion - and perhaps the West can be blamed for not being more aggresive earlier to stop the abuses. That they may have encouraged minorities to rise against the ottomans and participated in such (with Greeks/Bulgarians and later Arabs) and such and perhaps were the source of some (false) hope and encouragment for the Armenians still does not justify the extreme reaction taken by the CUP - nor the prior massacres by Abdul hamid - if both would have reacted differently they would have seen that Armenians would have been allies - had much to gain within a reformed Ottoman system and more to lose with European (Russian et al) intervention and take over. Most Armenians understood this. it was the Turks who pushed too far - repeatedly - in an effort to maintian drastically unequal dominence and continued servitude by the minorities - it was ultimatly the entire system of exploitation that brought the Ottomans down and cause the suffering for the Armenians - before - during and now...

Thank you for the reply. I agree with you at most of the points except the history argument. In any case, I don't want to start another history discussion since it is not the main point.
I don't want to believe that CUP has a plan to terminate the entire Armenian population. If so, and there are clues about it, it is a big shame and a action that is not easy to explain with ordinary adjectives.

Yes, Turks in general do not make a self-criticism, but same for todays Armenian youth, too as I read from your posts about Azeris. Don't take is as an offense, I never compare 1915 genocide with Karabagh war, but as a nation who suffered from aggression, you have to criticize your position at Karabagh, too. Of couse it is another discussion.

[Thai-Samurai]

"but as a nation who suffered from aggression, you have to criticize your position at Karabagh, too. Of couse it is another discussion."

Yeah we should really criticize our position and rethink about whether we should sit around and let our villages be bombed.

[cumanicus]

"but as a nation who suffered from aggression, you have to criticize your position at Karabagh, too. Of couse it is another discussion."

Yeah we should really criticize our position and rethink about whether we should sit around and let our villages be bombed.

Well, not Azeri souces but also international sources state the crimes that Armenian soldiers have committed against civilian Azeris. Maybe you will say that it is a war condition or else but in any case, forget the crimes, 1 million Azeri civilians are expulsed from their own lands because Armenia invaded Azerbaijan. It is a similiar action of how Israel as a nation who suffered from Holocoust is committing crimes against civilians. Just think about it.

[skhara]

Well since you come here with a respectful non-insulting attitude, I'll take a debating approach with you. Not that its going to change any reality on the ground, but will just fuel my own curiousity.

you have to criticize your position at Karabagh, too.

What in particular?

Well, not Azeri souces but also international sources state the crimes that Armenian soldiers have committed against civilian Azeris.

I am curious to see these accounts and how they compare to the accounts told by the Christian Solidarity International's report from Nagorny Karabakh.

Maybe you will say that it is a war condition or else but in any case, forget the crimes, 1 million Azeri civilians are expulsed

Here you present a clear manipulation. There are just over 1.1 million total displaced persons. 700,000 Azeris and 400,000 Armenians from all places in Armenia and Azerbaijan. You don't have to tell me about it, because I'm among them. -- I got a few more things to add to these but I'll wait for your answer.

from their own lands because Armenia invaded Azerbaijan.

Which lands are their lands? Moreover, if Armenia invaded Azerbaijan, then you should have no problem providing me with a date, right?

It is a similiar action of how Israel as a nation who suffered from Holocoust is committing crimes against civilians.

Israel as a nation has always been committing crimes against all of humanity from the beginning. And our case is in no way, shape, or form, similar to Israel. Israel is simply handed 5 times the amount of both Armenia's and Azerbaijans total budgets combined by zionist controlled government in Washington. Israel has nukes and much more firepower than all its Arab neighbors put together. Israel has more aircraft in their airforce than the rest of the entire Middle East put together. Azerbaijan, on the other hand, has 3 times more of everything when compared to Armenia. They have 3 times the tanks, 3 times the guns, 3 times and aircraft.

[karoaper]

The biggest error in comparing Armenia with Israel is that Israel occupied a country in which almost no j-e-w-s lived. Upon defacto occupation and throughout later part of 20th century, j-e-w-s everywhere started to settle the region in a Apartheid-like move. In the case of Karabakh, the region was over 90% percent Armenian.

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/commonwealth/ethnocaucasus.jpg

In addition, it was not Armenia who escalated the armed conflict. After the overwhelming majority of people in Karabakh voted to try to legally separate from Azerbaijan (they could do it, because Karabakh was an automous region of the USSR on the territory of Azerbaijan), they were met with Azeri tanks. Armenia got involved not to snatch that land for itself but to to help the people of Karabakh. Even today, Karabakh does not want to be a part of Armenia, they want to be their own country.

Turks today are very much behind the Chechens in their desperate and bloody struggle agains the Russian empirialistic machine. So they should clearly be on the side of Armenians of Karabakh who want the freedom to govern themselves.

[skhara]

Turks today are very much behind the Chechens in their desperate and bloody struggle agains the Russian empirialistic machine. So they should clearly be on the side of Armenians of Karabakh who want the freedom to govern themselves.

Its a civilizational conflict karo. Why on earth would turks be on the side of Armenians when Turkish and Armenian interests in the Caucasus are diametrically opposed. And as far as "Russian imperialist machine", Chechnya turned into a black hole when Russian forces left. Are you aware of a full-scale drug war that is taking place which streches from Afganistan to Azerbaijan, through Chechnya and on to Russia?

[karoaper]

Its a civilizational conflict karo. Why on earth would turks be on the side of Armenians when Turkish and Armenian interests in the Caucasus are diametrically opposed. And as far as "Russian imperialist machine", Chechnya turned into a black hole when Russian forces left. Are you aware of a full-scale drug war that is taking place which streches from Afganistan to Azerbaijan, through Chechnya and on to Russia?

I was being sarcastic about the Turks being on our side, whatever that means . As far as the Chechen's legendary simple ways, we'd heard about it since long time. They are highlanders who've only known interclan warfare and ... not much else. It's precisely the reason why this war makes no sense. Chechens are going to happily bomb away and the Russians are going to happily bomb away, while innocents on both sides die. I understand the geopolitical need for Russians to keep Chechens from attaining freedom: namely that all the other small ethnicities will follow suite plus the fact that a large section of the petroleum industry is there, but to me it's a very small excuse compared to the massive suffering caused to people, simple and savage people but humans nonetheless.

Also, isn't the drug money the cheif financial support for Basayev and his operations.

[skhara]

but to me it's a very small excuse compared to the massive suffering caused to people, simple and savage people but humans nonetheless.

Chechens are going to happily bomb away and the Russians are going to happily bomb away, while innocents on both sides die.

Well its a bit of a damned if you do and damned if you don't. And I agree with this btw.

I understand the geopolitical need for Russians to keep Chechens from attaining freedom:

But what is freedom in Chechen language? Last time the Russians left, Mashadov had absolutely no control whatsoever. He was called a terrorist by Russians, but there were much worse than him who were really in control of Chechnya. They were entirely unable and/or unwilling to set up a state, and the economy of the free and independent Chechnya was based on drugs, pimping, kidnapping, and extortion.

I do have some respect for them though. Tough suckers they are.

[karoaper]

I do have some respect for them though. Tough suckers they are.

Tough and crazy. Russia needs to get rid of Basayev though. Freak with an idea that his ends justify any means. Plus, he provides steady support to Azeris, because of the Muslim thing I guess.