What would have happened today if the Armenians were not displaced from Turkey?

[Thai-Samurai]

Well, not Azeri souces but also international sources state the crimes that Armenian soldiers have committed against civilian Azeris. Maybe you will say that it is a war condition or else but in any case, forget the crimes, 1 million Azeri civilians are expulsed from their own lands because Armenia invaded Azerbaijan. It is a similiar action of how Israel as a nation who suffered from Holocoust is committing crimes against civilians. Just think about it.

And also the Sumgait massacres, no one seems to mention that.

http://www.nkrusa.org/nk_conflict/sumgait_massacre.shtml

http://www.cilicia.com/Refugee.htm

[loveataturk]

Contrary to opinions here, Turks of Republic of Turkey DO NOT SUPPORT or even have sympathy for the CHECHEN. Why would we? They are plainly executing terrorist actions. Terrorism of any type is to be condemned, such as terrorism rendered on the Iraqi civilians by the USA and UK. (which might well be called State Terrorism).
I never understood why Azeris and Armenians have to keep fighting, either. Both are cash-strapped, poor and comparatively un-civilized and un-educated populus nations, with very low populations. WHAT GOOD COMES OUT OF AZERI-ARMENI wars????
Both nations could very well extend gratitude to Republic of Turkey, and we would welcome both nations, to give up their sovereignty perhaps, but all would be able to eat-drink and live in TRUE DEMOCRACY in a secular sovereign.
Think about it. IT is not too late!!

[karoaper]

Contrary to opinions here, Turks of Republic of Turkey DO NOT SUPPORT or even have sympathy for the CHECHEN. Why would we? They are plainly executing terrorist actions. Terrorism of any type is to be condemned, such as terrorism rendered on the Iraqi civilians by the USA and UK. (which might well be called State Terrorism).
I never understood why Azeris and Armenians have to keep fighting, either. Both are cash-strapped, poor and comparatively un-civilized and un-educated populus nations, with very low populations. WHAT GOOD COMES OUT OF AZERI-ARMENI wars????
Both nations could very well extend gratitude to Republic of Turkey, and we would welcome both nations, to give up their sovereignty perhaps, but all would be able to eat-drink and live in TRUE DEMOCRACY in a secular sovereign.
Think about it. IT is not too late!!

turkey literacy rate:
total population: 86.5%
male: 94.3%
female: 78.7% (2003 est.)

Armenian literacy rate:
total population: 98.6%
male: 99.4%
female: 98% (2003 est.)

That's all I'm gonna say.

[cumanicus]

Well since you come here with a respectful non-insulting attitude, I'll take a debating approach with you. Not that its going to change any reality on the ground, but will just fuel my own curiousity.



What in particular?



I am curious to see these accounts and how they compare to the accounts told by the Christian Solidarity International's report from Nagorny Karabakh.



Here you present a clear manipulation. There are just over 1.1 million total displaced persons. 700,000 Azeris and 400,000 Armenians from all places in Armenia and Azerbaijan. You don't have to tell me about it, because I'm among them. -- I got a few more things to add to these but I'll wait for your answer.



Which lands are their lands? Moreover, if Armenia invaded Azerbaijan, then you should have no problem providing me with a date, right?



Israel as a nation has always been committing crimes against all of humanity from the beginning. And our case is in no way, shape, or form, similar to Israel. Israel is simply handed 5 times the amount of both Armenia's and Azerbaijans total budgets combined by zionist controlled government in Washington. Israel has nukes and much more firepower than all its Arab neighbors put together. Israel has more aircraft in their airforce than the rest of the entire Middle East put together. Azerbaijan, on the other hand, has 3 times more of everything when compared to Armenia. They have 3 times the tanks, 3 times the guns, 3 times and aircraft.

Skhara, I am not an expert on the Armenian-Azeri conflict and please correct me if I have a wrong information. What I know is that at 1991 Armenia invaded Karabagh an autonomous area of Azerbaijan which has an Armenian population mainly and invaded the area between Karabagh and Armenia. Today %20 of Azerbaijan is under Armenian occupation and international commmunity protest Armenia and claim it to leave the occupied Azeri lands. Correct?
About the crimes committed by Armenians against Azeri civilians, Azeris claim a lot of incidents but what I only know is the Khocali massacre at 26 February 1992. As I know at one night Armenian soldiers killed 613 Azeri civilians including women and children mainly. Correct?
These are what I konw from not only Azeri sources but also international sources. If I have a fault please correct me again.
I can understand your willingness to seperate Karabagh from Azerbaijan since Armenians are majority now. But international system do not allow these kind of land demands anymore. As a nation who suffered from aggression you are doing the same now. If all country have a right to invade its neighbour to patronage its minority there must be war at everywhere everytime. Let me give you an example. Today the majority of western Thrace, a land belong to Greece, is Turkish. Do we have a right to invade Greece? You know that we made a fault at Cyprus, we occupied the northen part of the land to protect Turs and we are still suffering from the results. 1/3 of Iran land is full of Azeris. Do you think Azerbaijan have a right to invade Iran? I can give you thousands of example. I read some Armenian websites about Karabagh conflict and read your points. You say that there is a pogrom took place against Armenian minority at Azerbaijan and about 50 Armenian is killed. And after Karabagh claimed independence from Azerbaijan Azeri army come to Karabagh. I can understand the points and there is always a two side of a conflict. You may be right at some certain points but in general the way you do to protect your right are not acceptable.
These are the main points. Please do not reply me with some very specific points since I am not an expert about whole conflict. Just answer me with the main ideas about the conflict.

[loveataturk]

Cumanicus, I cannot fathom what makes you believe that the "FREEDOM" of Cyprus from the Greek junta in 1974 by the Turkish military (Praise be upon them) was a mistake?!
If we start re-tracing all nation-land-grab isues, we can go all the way back to Adam and Eve, back to Ethiopia even?

[skhara]

Please do not reply me with some very specific points since I am not an expert about whole conflict.

You really have to be to fully understand. Moreover, a peoples psyche often derives policy. So you have to understand a peoples psuche as well.

Just answer me with the main ideas about the conflict.

No problem, I'll make my answers brief, you can do the research yourself if interested. Obviously the conflict goes way further than 1991, both Armenians and Azeris can explain that to you. The recent war came as a result of the deliberate ethnic policies of the Bolshevik regime. Look at our neighbor, the Georgians. There have been multiple wars fought on ethnik reasons. Look at former Yugoslavia, same thing. Those all result from the ethnic policies invoked years ago. When Armenia fell to the Bolsheviks, Azerbaijan which already fell to the Bolsheviks sent a letter to Armenia recognizing that Nakhichevan and Karabakh were integral parts of Armenia, however the Bolshevik devide and coquer ethnic policies changed that in favour of the Azeris, where Armenia was chopped and sliced. Now the Armenian population was "cleansed" from Nakhichevan in its entirity, while in Karabakh it remained, chopped and sliced from Armenia. Armenians never accepted having to be forced into Azerbaijan against the will of the population. Throughout Soviet times this question was constantly raised by Armenians, but always suppressed and rejected by the supreme soviets.

That is from the very beginning Armenians did not accept that which was forced on them. From the very beginning Armenians tried to correct what Armenians felt was a wrong, and in the late 80s more opportunity was presented and Armenians voted to cede from Azerbaijan.

Skhara, I am not an expert on the Armenian-Azeri conflict and please correct me if I have a wrong information. What I know is that at 1991 Armenia invaded Karabagh an autonomous area of Azerbaijan which has an Armenian population mainly and invaded the area between Karabagh and Armenia.

In this case you certainly have the wrong information. I have heard claims of Armenia invading in 1993, but never claims of 1991. You really should familiarize yourself, it was an escalation of events, and a very local fight.
You should familiarize yourself with "Operation Ring", which would not have been possible if Armenia had invaded.

Today %20 of Azerbaijan is under Armenian occupation

Well, our physche tells us that its less than that, because we do not accept Karabakh as part of Azerbaijan. And we don't call it Karabakh either, I'm just doing it for your benefit .

and international commmunity protest Armenia and claim it to leave the occupied Azeri lands. Correct?

I am always confused by "international community". You mean the UN? Armenians view the UN resolutions as disfavourable, however, you should check the exact wording of those resolutions, the Republic of Armenia is not accused of invasion, several times specific references are made to "local Armenian fighters".

About the crimes committed by Armenians against Azeri civilians, Azeris claim a lot of incidents but what I only know is the Khocali massacre at 26 February 1992. As I know at one night Armenan soldiers killed 613 Azeri civilians including women and children mainly . These are what I konw from not only Azeri sources but also international sources. If I have a fault please correct me again.

Its not surprising to me that you've heard of this. I also know that Azeri and Turkish sources just flat out claim that "Armenians did the massacre". Know this: entities will always take care of their interests first and foremost, it was never in Armenian interests to deliberately massacre civilians. Moreover, the place of massacre was not under Armenian control at the time of the massacre. And I do call it such, it was a massacre of civilians, but we reject the notion that it was Armenians who did it. Not until at least even partial evidence is presented, because so far all the evidence (even from Azeri government opposition as well as Azeri eye witnesses) point to an Azeri entity. And yes, they certainly did have an interest in this massacre -- not only to blame the Armenians for it, but for internal use as well.

I can understand your willingness to seperate Karabagh from Azerbaijan since Armenians are majority now. But international system do not allow these kind of land demands anymore. As a nation who suffered from aggression you are doing the same now. If all country have a right to invade its neighbour to patronage its minority there must be war at everywhere everytime. Let me give you an example.

What I understand is that might make right. No humanist view will ever change that reality. We have to be more determined and more vigillant than those who wish us harm. My personal view is that there would never have been an Armenian Genocide if at the time we had might enough to prevent it, that is we cannot allow another ethnic group to have any kind of say over our own well-being and security.

[Thai-Samurai]

Contrary to opinions here, Turks of Republic of Turkey DO NOT SUPPORT or even have sympathy for the CHECHEN. Why would we? They are plainly executing terrorist actions. Terrorism of any type is to be condemned, such as terrorism rendered on the Iraqi civilians by the USA and UK. (which might well be called State Terrorism).
I never understood why Azeris and Armenians have to keep fighting, either. Both are cash-strapped, poor and comparatively un-civilized and un-educated populus nations, with very low populations. WHAT GOOD COMES OUT OF AZERI-ARMENI wars????
Both nations could very well extend gratitude to Republic of Turkey, and we would welcome both nations, to give up their sovereignty perhaps, but all would be able to eat-drink and live in TRUE DEMOCRACY in a secular sovereign.
Think about it. IT is not too late!!

That was the stupidest thing I have ever read in my entire life.

[winoman]

Cumanicus - your "facts" regarding the NK conflict are seriously wrong. The agression was clearly and demonstradably on the part of the Azeris. Armenians were only doing what they had to do to survive and secure themselves from further attack (land corridor and seizing the high ground surrounding NK). The "massacres" and expulsions of civilians began with the Azeris and were mostly perpetrated by them. While in war sometimes tragedies do occur - and I'm not claiming that the Armenian or NK fighters are free from soem blame - but the facts regarding the alledged Kolijai incident are not at all clear cut and there is evidence that the Armenian forces warned and gave time for civilians to evacuate (from a town where the Azeri forces were cowardly sheilding themselves among civilians yet shelling Armenian forces from such a position) and it also seems that the Azeri forces may have evens fired upon and killed their own - or at least there is a great deal of evidence/accounts that suggest that the dead were collected and arranged to look like a massacre. And what I find very interesting is that the bodies were all found in territory completley controlled by the Azeri forces - who were ousted from Kolijai proper...so much is truly unknown concerning this incident. And even if the Azeri version is true - OK - it was perhaps a tragedy -as all civilian losses in warfare are - OK - however this does not change the situation of Azeri aggression against a legal Armenain state entity - Nagorno Karabagh - which had obtained independence legally from the USSR by way of referendum - and the Azeri response was to blaockade and invade and attempt to terrorize and drive out the Armenian population. The Azeri forces continued this until forcibly driven out and they continued to shell into NK until driven from their positions in the surrounding high ground - and these are the positions now held by the Armenians. This was an entirely defensive war on the part of the Armenians and you can in no way compare any of it to the Genocide of Armenians in 1915 - no way - no how - another sorry Turkish cop out that ain't gonna fly...

[bell-the-cat]

Turks today are very much behind the Chechens in their desperate and bloody struggle agains the Russian empirialistic machine. So they should clearly be on the side of Armenians of Karabakh who want the freedom to govern themselves.

And why are Armenians not very much behind the Chechens in their struggle to gain their freedom from Russia? Is it because Armenia is, has always been, and probably always will be, Russia's poodle?

[skhara]

And why are Armenians not very much behind the Chechens in their struggle to gain their freedom from Russia? Is it because Armenia is, has always been, and probably always will be, Russia's poodle?

Better than being the *ews/Zionists poodles like Turks, Brits, and Americans .