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Islam: The Religion of Peace?

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  • #11
    2.1. The Armenians

    Although the Greek-Orthodox patriarchate receives more attention in the West, mostly due to its role in church affairs beyond Turkey, actually the Armenians form the largest remaining Christian community in Turkey. In 1976 approximately 42.000 Armenians (Gregorian church) lived in Istanbul. Many Armenians live or have a summer residence on one of the princess islands, Kinali, which is inhabited by 90% Armenians.

    There are 35 Churches and Chapels and a Patriarchate in Istanbul. In addition there are 6 Catholic and 2 Protestant Armenian churches in Istanbul. They both comprise only a small group and hold less than 10.000 believers combined, but they maintain churches and schools in Turkey as well.[17]

    There are two Armenian dailies, Jamanak (1.200 copies), written Armenian, with two pages using the Turkish alphabet for Armenian. Marmara (1.200-2.000) is the other daily. Their number of copies is so low, because many Armenians do not read and sometimes do not even speak Armenian anymore.[18] Generally the Armenian community is in a precarious situations in regards to their identity. They are a relatively small group in a state which is perceived by Armenians elsewhere as their greatest enemy. An empirical study among the Armenian community of Istanbul in regard to their identity shows this division. While generally a majority of those asked view themselves predominantly as Armenian, a significant group defined themselves rather as Turks. Those were mostly the younger and better-educated members of the community: ”It appears that, having discovered the distinction between the in-group and the out-group, the younger generation of Turkish-Armenians have developed a weaker in group identity and a stronger out-group identity.”[19] This conclusion points to a possible decrease and even disappearance of the Armenian community through assimilation. The Armenian community of Turkey is also in conflict with many other Armenian communities in the Diaspora or in Armenia over the relationship with Turkey. This deepens the identity crisis of the Armenian community in Turkey.

    The pressure on the Armenian community to assimilate also points to a general observation in respects to homogenising tendencies in Turkey. The Kemalist Republic conflicts with the Armenians and other non-Muslim communities for two reasons. First of all there is the secularisation, which – as mentioned – threatens to deplete the religious minorities of the prime identifying characteristics. While the majority of Sunni as sufficient strength in numbers to retain their identity either through other criteria than religion or through informal religious networks, minorities cannot gather a similar cohesion. Secondly the nationalist nature of the Turkish republic constitutes a major problem for the non-Muslim minorities. This is because nations tend to endorse the majorities language, religion and perception, all of which contradict or at least differ from the those of most of these minorities. Furthermore most non-Muslim minorities tend to have a different ethnic or national background than the majority of Turks. So also from this perspective their position is highly volatile. This dual assimilatory pressure, religious through secularisation and ethnic through nationalism, has recently been reinforced by the revival of Islam. This revival as has been pointed out previously originate in a somewhat moderate level from the state and a more radical form from the Islamists. As stated in the introduction the two non-Muslim minorities, Armenians in particular, find their treatment put into the context of Turkish foreign policy.

    Due to the tense relationship between Turks and Armenians, the Armenian Church is forced to show particular loyalty to the Turkish Republic (i.e. supporting and participating in the celebrations of Atatürk in 1981) Generally the situation of the Armenian church is better than that of the Orthodox. The times were difficult in the 70s when the ASALA, an Armenian terrorist group attacked Turkish embassies. No Armenians were accepted for civil service, the pressure on schools, church and people increased. In the nineties the conflict between Armenia and Azerbaidjian put Armenians again in an awkward position. After some heavy attacks on Nagorno-Karabach by Armenia even the instruction in Armenian was temporarily banned in schools. Attacks against Armenian churches and misrepresentation of Armenians remain commonplace in Turkey. Frequently attempts were undertaken by the government to connect the PKK with Armenians. This aims at inflating the role of Armenians and in order to construct a conspiracy theory against the Turkish state. Since Armenians are the largest non-Muslim group in Turkey, they are a prime target of religious and nationalist propaganda.[20] Here again the rhetoric of the secular Nationalist and Islamist coincides. Interestingly enough the vocal support of Erbakan for the Turks in Cyprus and the Azeris against Armenian coincides rather with a Turkish nationalist agenda than a pure Islamist programme: ”The Islamists in power in Turkey are instinctively averse to both Greeks and Armenians. As deputy prime minister in 1974, Erbakan wanted Turkish troops to occupy all of Cyprus. In the electoral campaign that preceded the 1995 election, he made the bizarre claim that the Operation Provide Comfort...for the protection of Iraqi Kurds, was really meant to allow the creation of a Greater Armenia, as the British occupation of Palestine after World War I had provided a cover for the creation of Israel.” [21] Consequently, one has to perceived opposition between Secularists and Islamists, at least in regards to religious minority.
    "All truth passes through three stages:
    First, it is ridiculed;
    Second, it is violently opposed; and
    Third, it is accepted as self-evident."

    Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

    Comment


    • #12
      2.2. Jews

      Only a few (1945: 76.965, 1985: 24.000) of the large number of Jews from Ottoman times are left in Turkey today, mainly due to migration to Israel. The overwhelming share of the live in Istanbul, furthermore there are some 1.500 Jews in Izmir (10 synagogues) and 130 in Antakya.

      Some Jews still speak Ladino, a Spanish dialect common to sephardic Jews, the dominant branch of Judaism in Turkey. Today mostly Turkish is spoken. There is a Jewish Hospital and High School in Turkey today. The primary school is attended by 300 pupils, secondary school by 250. Turkish is language of instruction, with strong additional Hebrew. There is only one weekly newspaper for the Jewish community. It has eight pages in Turkish and one in Ladino.

      There are 16 synagogues in Istanbul today, some date form the 15th century.[22] Similar to the Armenian community, the Turkish state has ”internationalised” the Jewish community. In the case of the Jewish community it has always assure to send prominent members of the Turkish Jewish community to international bodies. Jews were especially helpful when it came to improve the reputation of Turkey abroad and to ease international actions taken against the country. [23]

      The internal cohesion of the Jewish community is high. There is a functioning network for protecting the weak, helping for a job and education. As the Armenians the Jews use the Princess islands as a meeting ground and have summer houses. The main bond of the community is no longer the religious activities, but rather the social network. The secularisation has generally reduced the religiosity of the Jewish community.[24] Since the Jewish community was more Westernised and economically more successful than the majority of the Turkish state, they could be seen as the frontrunner of the ideals the Kemalist state was striving for. At the same time the community remained separate from the majority, despite the secularisation of the state.[25] Aron Rodrigue in his description of the development of the Jews in Turkey comes to the conclusions that ”even though the juridical millet disappeared, the Jews’ millet identity remained intact.”[26]

      The community is very strong today and makes itself heard in Israel-Turkish relations and has repeatedly protected Turkey from accusations of THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE. Due to good relations to Israel and Jews organisations around the world the situation of Jews in Turkey is probably the best in the Muslim world. This relationship is nevertheless problematic as well. It makes the Jewish community extremely vulnerable to possible conflicts between the countries.

      Furthermore opponents of the state of Israel are quick to identify the Jews in Turkey very closely with the state. In 1986 a massacre occurred in the Neve Shalom synagogue. Although Arab terrorist were accused, this was never firmly established and Turks as perpetrators are likely.

      Furthermore the protection of Turkey in the case of the Armenian genocide is morally very questionable. Tying their own survival to the unconditional support of the state puts the Jewish community in a vulnerable position, internally, as well as towards the outside.[27] On the view of the Jews in Turkey the perspective of the Secular state and the Islamist is probably the most divergent. While Kemalists have sought to capitalise on the good treatment of Jews in Turkey relations with other countries, the United States and Israel in particular, the Islamist clearly take a hostile position towards Jews and Israel.[28] The party president Necmettin Erbakan and leading members, as well as publications, do not limit their tirades to Israel, but take on a generally hostile tone towards all Jews. The Milli Gazete[29] describes the Jews as a ”Nation condemn in the Qur’an.” The Verfassungsschutz of the German state Nordrhein-Westfalen, observing radical organisations, is noting a general increase in the anti-Semitism content of the publications close to Refah.[30] The Welfare Party declared support for Human Rights seems cynical when recalling that a member of parliament and its human rights committee from Refah Partisi deplored the fact that Hitlers had failed in eliminating all the Jews.[31] Thus Jews, while being the best protected minority by the secular state, are at the same time the prime target of radical Islamist. As long as the conflict between Israel and some of its neighbours and more Islamist groups of the Palestinian populations continues, the Jewish population will remain very vulnerable to Islamists in Turkey. Especially the close ties of the secular state with Israel and the role of Turkish Jews in this connection has infuriated Islamist and made them probably more hostile towards the Jewish population than in other countries.
      "All truth passes through three stages:
      First, it is ridiculed;
      Second, it is violently opposed; and
      Third, it is accepted as self-evident."

      Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

      Comment


      • #13
        3. The Islamisation of Turkey and the prospects for Religious Minorities

        As has been documented with all three minorities, in particular with the Alevis, the governments of Turkey since the coup in 1980 have abandoned the ”pure” path of Kemalism and instead attempted to include Sunni Islam into the national concept. This is to be seen as an attempt to broaden the legitimacy of the state and its governments, or as Eric Rouleau, the former French ambassador to Turkey puts it: ”Under the current constitution, promulgated by the military government, the teaching of religion (i.e. Islam) is compulsory in all school ‘to cement national unity,’ in the words of General Kenan Evren, head of the military coup d’état of 1980. In practice, the principle of secularism, or separation of church and state, has been replaced by a system that places Islam under control of a secular government – a compromise between Kemalism and Ottomanism.”.[32]

        Turning briefly towards possible future developments in regards to the treatment of minorities, let us turn to the position of the Islamist Refah Partisi on the groups discussed here. The motto of the Welfare Party is ”Human rights and Liberties in Turkey.”[33] In regards to religious minorities in Turkey this slogan borders on cynicism. The words and deeds of the Refah and its politicians in respect to all the minorities discussed here paint a bleak picture.[34] Most prominent is the usage of anti-Semitism, as mentioned in the previous chapter.

        While hostility towards Jews is very strongly developed, other religious minorities became targets of Islamist as well. The district mayor of the seat of the Greek-Orthodox patriarchate in Istanbul, a member of Refah, for example has threatened to make a ”triumphant entry into the Ecumenical Patriarchate through the sealed gate,” which was closed since a patriarch was hanged there in 1821.[35]

        In regards to the Alevi it just has to be recalled how the Refah mayor of Sivas encouraged the demonstration against the Alevi conference in 1993 which lead to the death of 37 Alevis. Since Alevis are considered heretics in Sunni Islam, their position is more vulnerable than the Judeo-Christian minorities, since they right to exist as such is not questioned by conventional interpretations of Islam, unlike the Alevis.

        The outlook for minorities in case of a rule by the Welfare party is bleak. While their positions has been insecure and under constant pressure from the state, it is still much better than what can be expected from a rule by Refah.

        There is little hope in the current political spectrum for improvement of the treatment of Minorities. Alevis have the best chances, since they are the largest and best integrated minority in Turkey. This nevertheless only applies in a continuation of secular politics. In a more Islamist state their position will be under threat, not only because of the religion, but also because of their vocal support for the secular Kemalist state. The religious minorities, with the exception of the Alevis, are very small in number and thus are under constant threat of assimilation. The fact that they receive relatively much attention from abroad is mainly due to their continuing harassment by the state. Only when the state embarks on a more tolerant view of minorities and a more inclusive concept of Turkish nationhood, these minorities will become less visible and better integrated into mainstream Turkish society. Prospects for this to happen are, as mentioned, not very good.
        "All truth passes through three stages:
        First, it is ridiculed;
        Second, it is violently opposed; and
        Third, it is accepted as self-evident."

        Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

        Comment


        • #14
          European Court of Human Rights finds Turkey guilty

          European Court of Human Rights finds Turkey guilty in Gazi/Ümraniye incidents
          Wednesday, July 27, 2005




          The court rules that police officers shot directly into a crowd at both demonstrations and killed a total of 17 people, awarding compensation to victim's families

          ANKARA - Turkish Daily News


          The European Court of Human Rights has found the Turkish government to be responsible for the death of 17 people during incidents that took place in the Gazi and Ümraniye districts of Istanbul in 1995.

          The tragic events unfolded after a group of unidentified people opened fire from a taxi on five cafes situated close to one another in the Gazi neighborhood in a drive-by shooting that killed one person and injured several others. The attackers then killed the taxi driver and fled. A large demonstration was subsequently held in the neighborhood on March 12, 1995 by thousands of people who threw stones and coins at police barricades.

          This bloody demonstration saw 15 people shot dead and 276 injured. Two further people were also killed during a second demonstration in Ümraniye three days later.

          The Turkish government argued that during the incidents in Gazi security forces verbally warned the demonstrators and then used water cannons and batons in an attempt to disperse the crowd. However, pleaded the government, this failed to work and a group of gunmen started shooting indiscriminately and recklessly from within the crowd, and as a result 15 people were shot and killed. The government argued that ballistic reports revealed that none of the bullets recovered from the bodies of the victims could be matched to any of the registered firearms of the security forces.

          The court rejected the government's explanation and ruled that police officers had, in fact, fired directly into the crowd and caused the deaths of all 15 people.

          The court also found police officers had done the same at the second demonstration in which two more people were fatally shot.

          The manner in which the Turkish criminal justice system operated in response to the tragic events of March 1995 failed to establish the full accountability of state officials, the court decreed, adding that it concluded that there had been a violation of Article 2 (the right to life) of the European Convention on Human Rights concerning the failure of the authorities to provide a prompt and adequate investigation into the circumstances surrounding the killing of the applicants' relatives.

          The court said no effective criminal investigation could be considered to have been conducted in accordance with the European convention.

          The court awarded 30,000 euros compensation to each of the 22 applicants, all of whom are relatives of the victims.
          "All truth passes through three stages:
          First, it is ridiculed;
          Second, it is violently opposed; and
          Third, it is accepted as self-evident."

          Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

          Comment


          • #15
            Definately a short bus rider

            Originally posted by kemal
            Hi Hovik,

            Why do you blame me all the time?

            What did I do?

            I didn't do those crimes against the Armenian citizens of the Ottomans.
            Neither my parents nor their parents. You better start blaming only those
            that committed the crimes. My grandparents had no power to effect the
            government.

            Let them be the ones who killed innocent people. What is my fault?
            Is it logical for you to blame people's grandchildren since they committed
            a crime?

            There are two mistakes you keep doing. First of all you are blaming all the
            Turks of 1915 being part of a crime, secondly you are blaming their grand
            children. Both are wrong.
            Kemal,
            Name one instance that I blamed YOU for the crime of Genocide?

            Name one instance that I blamed YOUR GRANDPARENTS for the crime of
            Genocide?

            Name one instance that I blamed ALL THE TURKS of 1915 for the crime of Genocide?

            We all know that I didn't. What? do you think people can't use the scroll
            wheel on their mouse and go up a few posts and read what I said to you?
            People aren't as stupid as you may think.

            I don't condemn Turks who had nothing to do with the Genocide. I only
            condemn those who did directly participate in it, those who participated
            through their complicity, and even those who turned their heads as to not
            get involved - do you doubt that these groups played a role in the Armenian
            Genocide? (ANSWER THIS)

            Furthermore, I believe strongly in the guilt of another group (one which
            you KEMAL belong to based on your words in this forum) - the Deniers of
            Genocide
            . People like you who deny Genocide in an attempt to discredit the
            victims and thus perpetrate a second Genocide against us are just as guilty
            if not MORE-SO than those who killed by the sword. You, and any family
            member, friend, or fellow turk who has participated in denial of the
            Armenian Genocide is an accomplice to the act of Genocide. Let me take the
            opportunity to remind you that www.ArmenianGenocide.com has a
            zero-tolerance policy with regards to the type of Genocide denial that you
            have actively participated in within our forum. I shall also let you know
            that further action will be taken against you to have you banned from the
            forum if you do not obey the rules stated herein. You can take your
            propaganda and denialism somewhere else if you cannot behave yourself and
            have a little respect for the victims of these crimes.


            Originally posted by kemal
            What is my fault? For you apparently it is my denial.
            Yes, you should be ashamed of yourself for your lack of humanity and
            respect. If not, you should at least be embarrassed for your ignorance with
            regard to the subject. How about the hundreds of eyewitness accounts,
            diplomatic records, photo archives, etc. I would like you to list the ones
            you have read in your response. I am very interested to know what your
            educational background is on the Armenian Genocide, why don't you tell us
            what information you base your intellectual opinion on...


            Originally posted by kemal
            Denial of what?
            WOW, you keep surprising me with your ignorance. Heres a hint: _rmenian
            _enoicde! Fill in the blanks...

            Originally posted by kemal
            Do I deny that Armenians forcefully rooted out from their
            homes? Do I deny that many innocent people were killed?
            I don't know, do you? Why don't you run down your list of denialism with us
            so we know for sure...

            Originally posted by kemal
            It's actually you who deny that the innocent Turks were killed
            before 1915 by the Fedayis. It is you who deny that returned Armenians with
            the French and the Russian Army killed many innocent people. Do you have
            the courage of accepting those events as well?
            Oh really? This is starting to get fun... Now you are giving me all the joy
            here Kemal. Why don't you read this quote by Hovik himself from an earlier
            post in this forum and then try to squeeze out a half-ass apology for your
            ignorance
            :

            "Were there cases of Armenians who killed innocents - yes there were. I
            know that, I have read enough books to know that such cases existed."

            Originally posted by kemal
            Let's assume yes you are a person that can accept
            those...Would it be logical if I had blamed you personally because
            of those?
            You no longer need to assume. Again, I didn't blame you for the incidents
            so your comparison makes no logical sense unless you dug up some incidents
            and posted them above which I am sure you didn't. However, if I was to be
            an ignorant denialist short-bus-rider like yourself, yes you probably would
            have a justification for you blaming me in denial - just as I have a
            legitimate justification for blaming you in denial of the Armenian
            Genocide.


            Originally posted by kemal
            All I deny is your claim that states that the Turk's -as a
            nation- deliberately decided to exterminate the Armenians.
            Ok, I challenge you to copy and paste that so-called, alleged "claim" that
            I made... lets see it.

            Originally posted by kemal
            The basis of this claim is your interpretation of the events.
            Don't you think that I have my right to interpret what I see and read?
            There is NO INTERPRETATION OF GENOCIDE! WHAT DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND ABOUT
            THIS. Kemal, the sky is freaking blue, now I know that your INTERPRETATION
            may be different, but enough eyewitnesses, scientists and commonsense using
            humans realize that the sky is BLUE there is NO INTERPRETATION of that.
            Again, post all the sources that you have used, (ESPECIALLY non-turk,
            non-Armenian eye-witness sources to the Genocide)
            and lets go from
            there....Again, there is NO INTERPRETATION of GENOCIDE. May I ask how you
            can even be so ignorant to come up with your "interpretation" when the
            German government (the very government that helped the young Turks in the
            Genocide) passes a resolution explaining how the Young Turks CALCULATED and
            CAREFULLY PLANNED the GENOCIDE of the ARMENIANS.
            What reason could the
            ACCOMPLICE of the CRIME have to lie about such a thing? How arrogant and
            BLIND do you have to be to not see how ludicrous you sound?

            Originally posted by kemal
            I am trying to understand the motivations of the people
            "governing" at those days. I can see some might have the intention of wrong
            doing.
            Motivation? - homogenisation! What is there to understand - they wanted to
            steal land from a nation to complete their dream of a pan turkish state!
            Have you paid attention to ANY research on the subject of the Armenian
            Genocide??? Now I am really dying to know what materials you have read - or
            perhaps you only swallowed and regurgitated the filth your government spews
            in your direction.
            Keeping the population ignorant and in denial seems to
            have been a great success with you!

            Originally posted by kemal
            But looking at the telegrams all I see is they are trying to
            secure the land that they believe they own and will own. They want to
            deport the Armenians from their homes, but they are not trying to kill
            them. Russian army is approaching, Kurds are fighting with the Armenias in
            the east, Westerns are forcing to take an action agains those fights, and
            also the Armenian community in Istanbul as well as the Greeks, 25-30
            percent of the citizens are christian, hence Ottoman's should be very
            careful with the christian communities otherwise the empire will break
            appart before the war, Armenian fedayis were gathering in the east, up to
            40-50 thousand Armenians were fighting together with the Russians, English
            are at the gate of Gallipoli, many people ran away from the army were
            gathering as chetes and trying to survive by attacking villages of all
            nationalities...That's when the decision was made.
            Secure the land? The land wasn't theirs to secure! There had been Armenian
            State after Armenian State
            on that land for centuries. More than a thousand
            years before anyone knew what the hell a Turk was there were Armenian
            Kingdoms on that land. Don't talk like they were worried about their land.
            They were worried that Armenians (who had a rightful claim - just like
            Greeks, Serbs, Bulgarians, etc. to their OWN land) would succeed and they
            couldn't stand to have a road block between them and the turkic nation that they
            were about to witness the birth of - "Azerbaijan" (a country that NEVER existed
            prior to then
            ). They are NOT TRYING TO KILL ARMENIANS? Are you saying you
            don't know about the Special Organization that they formed to annihilate
            Armenians? You don't know about the Kurds they paid and organized to
            ransack the deportations? Have you ignored all these facts? Go and read the
            eyewitness accounts from U.S. Consul (Aleppo, Syria) Jesse Jackson, and
            then try telling us it wasn't organized mass murder! "Kurds are fighting
            with Armenians" because the Turkish government organized them to do so.
            Then Turks turned around and finished off the very Kurds that had just
            helped them finish off Armenians! HAHAHA I can't believe you don't
            acknowledge this!!!! WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN? What about the "Jihad" that was
            declared against minorities in Constantinople? was that not organized mass
            murder? How about the Islamic Theological Students (Softas) that were
            massacring Armenians in the streets of Constantinople while the Yeniceri
            (Janissaries) and government were riling them up. "Armenian Fedayis
            gathering in the east" - YOU ARE RIGHT there were SOME Armenian DEFENDERS
            gathering in the east - sick of their women being raped and unborn children
            ruthlessly cut out of their wombs
            , their brothers being drafted into the
            army (an act not allowed prior: Christians had to pay a tax NOT to be in
            the ARMY that they WERE NOT ALLOWED TO BE IN - there is a law for this if
            anyone wants it I can dig it up) only to dig their own graves then be lined
            up in a row (so as to see how many could be killed with one bullet (not to
            waste on an Armenian)) YES they got sick of having a GENOCIDE perpetrated
            against them. Now I know if I raped the hell out of Kemals mother and
            sisters and cut his unborn daughter out of his wife's womb, he would NEVER
            even think of joining a regiment of fighters to defend the few remaining
            innocents of his nation... or would he?
            Did you ever put yourself in their
            shoes kemal?

            In the Turkish eye - the only GOOD Armenian is he who bows his neck to your bloody sword like a lamb.

            ...

            Originally posted by kemal
            Genocide denial is not a crime yet throughout the world as
            also 1915 is not perceived as Genocide for most. Do what ever you can. Let
            it be acepted as Genocide throughout the world.
            Whatever helps you
            sleep better at night. For your comfort, there are also idiots who still
            believe Nazis never planned the Holocaust...


            Originally posted by kemal
            But show me something, a proof, which demonstrates that the
            govenrment of the time deliberately wanted to exterminate the Armenians as
            a nation then I will also believe that "the government of that time" should
            be blamed for their genocidal acts.
            Ummm, have you tried looking?
            The proof is everywhere. Try to find something that DOESN'T allude to the
            truth that the Armenian Genocide was planned by the Young Turks - and I'll
            be all ears... How do you discredit those such as Henry Morgenthau who were
            DIRECTLY told by Talaat and Enver about their plans to rid the country of
            Armenians, go read Morgenthau's words and then tell me what you don't
            understand
            . And while doing it, tell me what interest Morgenthau would have
            in lying?
            Was he secretly Henry MorgenthauIAN? I am sure you'll come up
            with some way to brush off the reality here.

            Originally posted by kemal
            But what do you want? Do you want me to state that the Turks
            are bloodthirsty freaks trying to drink Armenians blood in their spare time
            and as soon as found a chance achieved their evil plans. I am sorry but
            that's wrong.
            No, thats actually not what I want, because I know thats not the case.
            There are many good Turks throughout the world. There were when my
            great-grandparents were living in Turkey (their friends were Turks, the
            people whose very hands helped rescue MY FAMILYMEMBERS from the Genocide were TURKISH.) And
            there will ALWAYS be GREAT TURKISH PEOPLE. Those TURKISH people didn't deny the
            Armenian Genocide then
            , what do you say to them? What do you say to the
            Turks who were horrified by the mass murder of their neighbors and friends!
            They would have nothing but shame for your actions - for your denial. I
            don't want you to state anything. The world has already informed you of the
            sickness plaguing the denialist - only you can come to grips with it.
            ...

            Originally posted by kemal
            I never thought that the Russians and Armenians forcing the
            Turks living in Caucusus or the Balkans back to Ottoman was fair. But I
            never thought that it was genocide.
            Go read the UN definition of the word "Genocide" and see if your above
            example fits it. Then remember that the word "GENOCIDE" was coined on the basis of
            the Armenian Genocide
            - haven't you read R. Lemkin's story?

            Originally posted by kemal
            On the other hand genocide is an individual crime. Better
            blame people "individually" rather than categorizing them as
            genociders.
            No, not really! The Armenian Genocide was made possible
            by large numbers of people working together... actually. Was the Holocaust
            of the Jews an "individual" crime? Did Hitler SINGLEHANDEDLY kill 6 million
            Jews?
            or did he have a little help??? Genocide however, is also not the act
            of ONE nation against ANOTHER nation - as is true in the case of the
            Armenians. I give no credibility to ANYONE including Armenians who say that
            the entire TURKISH NATION committed Genocide against Armenians.


            Originally posted by kemal
            Oh, I got sick of these. What ever done is gone with
            yesterday, today new things must be said.
            One American (non-turk, non-Armenian) expert on Genocide actually (If
            anyone remembers his/her name, help me here - Might be Deborah Lipstadt) categorizes your last
            statement as a characteristic of a Genocide denier. Someone who says 'the
            past is the past' or 'it was long ago, lets just move on' - as if it isn't
            important to reconcile. Well there you have it, the experts agree - Kemal
            is a denialist!
            Give yourself a pat on the back - your a real BIG person
            Kemal...

            I will remain nauseated between now an your response - but I do expect ALL the above questions to be answered...

            Hovik

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            • #16
              Originally posted by kemal

              I believe the intention was in between, if they win the war those who are willing to remain and accept the ottoman authority would turn, if they loose than there won't be ottoman any more. That is to say intention was in between ethnic cleansing and securing the land. But not exterminate a nation. Do you want a proof? I don't have one. Iwas not in the war time cabinet...
              You believe what you want... The evidence as well as the outcome backs up what you call "the Armenian claim" 100%... Facts can not be buried... Don't argue about the Ottoman Empire's "intentions"... you won't force an entire people into the desert leaving them there starving to death if your intentions were NOT to exterminate them! It's very simple, don't make it complicated... Separate yourself from the filthy government who carried the genocide by condemning it, don't join them by denying it!


              Originally posted by kemal
              Aside from these, I have few questions for you. Did Asala committed a "genocide"? Or in Karabagh in Khocaly whoever the leaders of the assault were, did they also committed a genocide?
              I won't be discussing the ASALA here, since it has nothing to do with the Armenian genocide which this forum is about. But no, the didn't commit a "genocide"! Sometimes I think you guys don't even know the meaning of the term genocide. If the Armenian genocide never happened, or at least Turkey recognized it like a HUMAN, the ASALA would have never gone after the heads of your government and murdered them in the first place. No seriously, did you expect to massacre 1.5 million INNOCENT people without any consequences? Dream on...

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              • #17
                Between discrimination and hope: Christians in Turkey

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                • #19
                  Islamic Nations Slaughter and Enslave Christians

                  Turkey, our "military ally", is 99.8% Muslim. Recently, eight Americans were arrested in Turkey for the "crime" of giving away copies of the New Testament. In 1974 Turkey overran Cyprus - which is 80% Christian - and has ruled that small nation with an iron fist since then. The Turkish government expelled thousands of Orthodox Christians, then took a thousand-year-old monastery and turned it into a mosque! Imagine the international outcry if a mosque anywhere were to be stolen by a government and turned into a Christian church.

                  Coming soon a blog for Americans searching for information to help enrich their lives

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                  • #20
                    Christians are being harassed in Turkey

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