Islam: The Religion of Peace?

[ScythianVizier]

I see this whole list of suposed genocides you have posted Sythian Vizier. Some of which I believe would/do qualify as such. However I am curious as to YOUR qualifying these events as genocide - particularly when you fail to consider the Armenian Genocide as such. I wouls imagine that if you applied some of your criteria that you and other Turks do to claim that the Armenian Genocide is not one - none of these would meet your definition. Just food for thought...

If you name the ones I stated as "the genocides", then there will be no obstacles for the Turks to tackle the Armenian one by following the path of "highly advanced western civilization". For example, Russia and Armenia recognized the "Armenian Genocide", but still fail to recognize the Circassian, Crimean Tatar, and Chechnian ones (The combined population of those three ethnicities in Turkey constitutes some significant percentages of the total) even though such recognition was asked at Russian Duma. How do you explain this, could you tell? Same hypocracy applies to Belgium that exterminated some 10 million Africans in Congo, or the France which exterminated millions of Algerians in Algeria within some 130 years (not to mention Rwanda, American Indian, Cambotia, and the Vietnam genocides, which were not recognized by "highly advanced" French State and people).

Furthermore, in my opinion, colonial era that embodied destructing native cultures and languages, plundering resources, and enslaving people by force, constitute the major elements of genocide whether you might like to name them otherwise or not. In that sense, one could also conclude the interpretation of Christianity in various Christian countries have been far more violent than any other religion that ever exited in the world.

Thus, please note than more than 10 million Ottoman Muslims were forced to migrate to the "inner locations" of Ottoman Empire between 1780s and 1920s. During the same period, the losses of the Ottoman Muslims were far higher than the Armenian, the Assyrian or the Greek ones due to forced migration, mass slaughters and organized plunders. So tell me, do you think that you could name these events as genocides, or will you (I refer here to the Christian nations in general) continue to name them as historical events triggered by the natural hatred against the world famous "Ottoman Yoke"?

Finally, I would like to ask why you try to promote hatred against Islam in this thread? In my opinion, it is not some nice mindset for the people who seek for the recognition of a genocide.

[phantom]

If you name the ones I stated as "the genocides", then there will be no obstacles for the Turks to tackle the Armenian one by following the path of "highly advanced western civilization". For example, Russia and Armenia recognized the "Armenian Genocide", but still fail to recognize the Circassian, Crimean Tatar, and Chechnian ones (The combined population of those three ethnicities in Turkey constitutes some significant percentages of the total) even though such recognition was asked Duma. How do you explain this, could you tell? Same hypocracy applies to Belgium that exterminated some 10 million Africans in Congo, or the France which extermniated millions of Algerians in Algeria within some 130 years (even after 1948).

Furthermore, in my opinion, colonial era that embodied destructing native cultures and languages, plundering resources, and enslaving people by force, constitute the major elements of genocide whether you might like to name them otherwise or not. In that sense, one could also conclude the interpretation of Christianity in various Christian countries have been far more violent than any other religion that ever exited in the world.

Thus, please note than more than 10 million Ottoman Muslims were forced to migrate to the "inner locations" of Ottoman Empire between 1780s and 1920s. During the same period, the losses of the Ottoman Muslims were far higher than the Armenian, the Assyrian or the Greek ones due to forced migration, mass slaughters and organized plunders. So tell me, do you think that you could name these events as genocides, or will you (I refer here to the Christian nations in general) continue to name them as historical events triggered by the natural hatred against the world famous "Ottoman Yoke"?

Finally, I would like to ask why you try to promote hatred against Islam in this thread? In my opinion, it is not some nice mindset for the people who seek for the recognition of a genocide.

Synthian, why doesn't Turkey clean up its own house before xxxxxing and moaning about other genocides. Neither Turkey, nor denialist Turks like you, are in any position to take the moral high ground against the Genocide of Native Americans or any other group of people in this world. Until you come to terms with your own history, you really have no right to complain about the history of others.

[ScythianVizier]

Synthian, why doesn't Turkey clean up its own house before xxxxxing and moaning about other genocides. Neither Turkey, nor denialist Turks like you, are in any position to take the moral high ground against the Genocide of Native Americans or any other group of people in this world. Until you come to terms with your own history, you really have no right to complain about the history of others.

I am a Circassian Turk from Caucasus (Karachay) whose family has been subject to the "extermination policies" back in 1860s.. As you might recall those policies were innovated and mastered by Russia (as well as the West) during the "Era of Colonial Genocides and Plunders". So, I am in a position to assess every genocide in line with the current practices applicable, and compare them to the ones that my forefathers and relatives were subject to.

[Gavur]

OK
The 64k question again wasssss!

Islammm:Religion of peace?
(past,present and future!)

[ScythianVizier]

OK
The 64k question again wasssss!

Islammm:Religion of peace?
(past,present and future!)

No religion has such tendencies. In fact, religions teach people to love all beings created by God. The one who does not love and respect the created can not be deemed as a follower (loyal) of any religion of God.

[TurQ]

Vezir
I think his mind and heart are saying different things. I dont think he really believes what he says by heart.
And Vezir the sun can not be covered with mud. Only those who close their eyes dont see the light.
We as muslims are guilty of not properly representing religon , but even that we are not responsible for those who insist on falsifying the religion.

I know lots of I mean lots of Christians who appriciate Islam. And they are not avarage Christian but pastor, priest or scholar.

The Vatican itself confirms that Quran is also a source of salvation(Nostra Atate), i.e Vatican believes(at least the Pope in 1964) and confirms that Islam yes indeed the religon of peace. Gavur might want to hand that 64K prize to vatican in next sunday's service may be.

Halelujah ( vah vah gitti paraciklar! )
too bad the money is gone

Bobbie Sue, whoa, whoa, she slipped away
Billy Joe caught up to her the very next day
They got the money, hey
You know they got away
They headed down south and they're still running today
Singin' go on take the money and run
Go on take the money and run

Originally Posted by Gavur
OK
The 64k question again wasssss!
Islammm:Religion of peace?
(past,present and future!)
.

No religion has such tendencies. In fact, religions teach people to love all beings created by God. The one who does not love and respect the created can not be deemed as a follower (loyal) of any religion of God.

[phantom]

I am a Circassian Turk from Caucasus (Karachay) whose family has been subject to the "extermination policies" back in 1860s.. As you might recall those policies were innovated and mastered by Russia (as well as the West) during the "Era of Colonial Genocides and Plunders". So, I am in a position to assess every genocide in line with the current practices applicable, and compare them to the ones that my forefathers and relatives were subject to.

So far the only thing you've done is lie about the Armenian Genocide. You've done nothing to educate us about the Circassian Turk experience, nor to help us understand why it can be considered a Genocide like that of the, e.g., Armenian, Jewish, Rwandan, and Cambodian experiences. All you've done is whine generically about various Genocides here and there while maintaining that the Armenian experience is either no Genocide or at best, no big deal compared to the experiences of others. Your credibility and ability to assess this issue is consequently worthless. And your attempts to minimize the suffering of the Armenians is extremely transparent.

[TurQ]

Phantom

I think he did give information about Circisian sufferings.
My great grand mother is also one of those who have suffered(althiough we are not sure 100% of her ethnicity) She did immigrate during the exodus in caucusia.

What kind of lies he actually told? I think you are categorally labeling him.

I think the massacre of about 1,000,000 circicians and other muslim turkic and muslim caucusians is horrible enough. Whether you call it genocide or not
it does not change anything.
I am just curious why the horrible events in Caucusia and Balkans are not of your concern?

And I am also wondering how and why these events in Caucusia lowers the sufferings of Armenians of Anatolia. Can you justify the Russian and Caucusian Armenian attacks to Muslims of Caucusia?

Or should we just "Silence" our voices and just forgot about our own sufferings and remember only Armenian sufferings? WOuld you be comfortable?

I think you and 1.5 already have drawn a clear line between Cacucian/Balkan evetns and Anatolian events. While you are having this clear line and distinction why are you hesitant at least to recognize the horrible experience of those people?

And at this point how can you blame AIPAC for not being sympatatic to your cause while you are hessitant about Balkan and Caucusian Muslims.

So far the only thing you've done is lie about the Armenian Genocide. You've done nothing to educate us about the Circassian Turk experience, nor to help us understand why it can be considered a Genocide like that of the, e.g., Armenian, Jewish, Rwandan, and Cambodian experiences. All you've done is whine generically about various Genocides here and there while maintaining that the Armenian experience is either no Genocide or at best, no big deal compared to the experiences of others. Your credibility and ability to assess this issue is consequently worthless. And your attempts to minimize the suffering of the Armenians is extremely transparent.

[phantom]

Phantom

I think he did give information about Circisian sufferings.
My great grand mother is also one of those who have suffered(althiough we are not sure 100% of her ethnicity) She did immigrate during the exodus in caucusia.

What kind of lies he actually told? I think you are categorally labeling him.

I think the massacre of about 1,000,000 circicians and other muslim turkic and muslim caucusians is horrible enough. Whether you call it genocide or not
it does not change anything.
I am just curious why the horrible events in Caucusia and Balkans are not of your concern?

And I am also wondering how and why these events in Caucusia lowers the sufferings of Armenians of Anatolia. Can you justify the Russian and Caucusian Armenian attacks to Muslims of Caucusia?

Or should we just "Silence" our voices and just forgot about our own sufferings and remember only Armenian sufferings? WOuld you be comfortable?

I think you and 1.5 already have drawn a clear line between Cacucian/Balkan evetns and Anatolian events. While you are having this clear line and distinction why are you hesitant at least to recognize the horrible experience of those people?

And at this point how can you blame AIPAC for not being sympatatic to your cause while you are hessitant about Balkan and Caucusian Muslims.

Who said that I'm not sympathetic to Circassian suffering or the suffering of any group for that matter. What I'm saying is that people like you and Synth demand mountains of evidence from us to prove that what happened to the Armenians was Genocide, and even when we provide it, you still disagree. Yet, you have shown us nothing to suggest that what happened to Circassians was Genocide or that Armenians were somehow involved, yet you brush large strokes making these statements, completely ignoring your own impossible standards for providing a Genocide.

There is nothing to compare us with AIPAC and your comparison, as usual, is very distorted. We do not openly lobby against recognition of a Circassian genocide if there was one, nor any other Genocide that ever happened in this world. Armenians will be the first to stand up and agree with you if you can prove a Circassian Genocide as we have already proven the Armenian Genocide. In contrast, AIPAC knows that what happened to the Armenians was Genocide, yet it still ACTIVELY lobbies against recognition b/c it is coerced by Turkey into doing so.

[TurQ]

Phantom kardes

I am not an activist of any sort(probably you are), and I also dont think that vezir is
also an activist. If we did not care about Armenians we wouldnt be here. I have told
many times why I was here probably is gone unnoticed.
I personally dont need tones of evidence or trucks of archival papers from you to prove your point.
I already know at least from my own family sources about how Armenians suffered, the problem
with most Armenians are they dont know what actually Turks or Muslim people in Caucusia and Anatolia have suffered.
Not only in the hands of Armenians, may be Armenians have killed around 20,000 but in a larger scale the Russians did
horrenduos massacres and ethnic cleansing to us.
Again I dont ask you to give any evidence at all, any sensible person can think of the least likelihood of those events in
1915 without any evidence or archival support. I personally myself and Vezir are sympathatic to sufferings of ordinary
Armenian in 1915.

What we differ is the wording of those events, and again if you use the word for CUP only I wouldnt oppose it. Eventhough I am
not into the wording and dont use that word, if you use it only for CUP I wont oppose to you, they are responsible.
But you also need to learn more about pre 1915 developments, the dimensions of Tashnak/CUP alliance and how/why they became enemies suddenly.
You(I think 1.5 expressed it alone may be you didnt) conclude this to facism and ultranationalism of CUP and to a larger extend Turkish people
of 1915, and I(may be Vezir as well) think
that the sudden developments before and during the WW-I and the sudden break up of CUP-Tashnak alliance multiplied with Sarikamis Disaster(Akcam
also supports this)+ the Gallipoli war and the Van events in April 14,1915, caused the mess in 1915. Because of this
we are labelled as denialist and whitewashing the CUP. This is the point where we differ.
The leading reasons of 1915 events that we dont agree.


Phantom we are not activists, just sharing our opinions.

And believe me this problem will not ever be solved by activists.

You as a person who lives among diasporans as a Turkish born Armenian can be more influensive in terms
of bridge building between Turkish people and Armenians. You have this distinguished position.
Seninle boyle didisme durumunda kalmamiz uzucu olan, cogu zamanda bir sagirlar diyalogu oluyor.
Unutma biz ayni toplum icinde dogmus buyumus ferdleriz, didismedende birbirimizi anlayabiliriz.

Who said that I'm not sympathetic to Circassian suffering or the suffering of any group for that matter. What I'm saying is that people like you and Synth demand mountains of evidence from us to prove that what happened to the Armenians was Genocide, and even when we provide it, you still disagree. Yet, you have shown us nothing to suggest that what happened to Circassians was Genocide or that Armenians were somehow involved, yet you brush large strokes making these statements, completely ignoring your own impossible standards for providing a Genocide.

There is nothing to compare us with AIPAC and your comparison, as usual, is very distorted. We do not openly lobby against recognition of a Circassian genocide if there was one, nor any other Genocide that ever happened in this world. Armenians will be the first to stand up and agree with you if you can prove a Circassian Genocide as we have already proven the Armenian Genocide. In contrast, AIPAC knows that what happened to the Armenians was Genocide, yet it still ACTIVELY lobbies against recognition b/c it is coerced by Turkey into doing so.