Armenian time, Turkish time

[Doberman]

Why do they care about the Turks recognition then?

The first and foremost reason why "we care" about Turkey's recognition of the Armenian Genocide is due to national security concerns. If Turkey does not accept this fact, there are no guarantees whatsoever that the same thing will not occur in the future.

[Tongue]

Kemal, it's funny how you ask "Why do they care about the Turks recognition?". There are way too many reasons for Armenians wanting Turks recognition. But you asking that sillly question is enough reason for me to believe you would never understand the reasons even if I wrote a 10 page essay on it. So I won't bother. You are determined to not understand us.

[Hovik]

Kem out Kem out wherever you are...

Kemal, surprised to see you back! As you know, I have been waiting since July 27th for a response from you on a thread we were posting in. Just so the rest of you all know, I even e-mailed Kemal asking him to reply to my post months ago - and still nothing - so it's not like kemal can say he/she didn't know about it. Well, it'll be interesting to see how you address EACH AND EVERY ISSUE IN MY POST (unless of course you are going to continue ignoring it all together).

Here's the post:

http://www.armeniangenocide.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2416&postcount=21

Still Waiting...
Hovo

[1.5 million]

Kemal - thanks for your post of the story - Armenian Time - Turkish Time. I think there is much to be learned from this story - though it is by no means a full explanation or an entirely accurate depiction of the differences of perspecitive - it does perhaps illustrate some truths and we should be aware of these differences in perspective.

Like most Armenians (from the States) I am aware and sympathetic of the plight of Native Americans. There are substancial differences in their circumstances and that of Armenians - some similarities as well. Before i proceed further though I would like to propose that Turkey allow Armenians to set up tax free/unregulated by Turkish law Casinos and tourist stops in areas that were Armenian, designate tradtional Armenian lands as Armenian reservations where Armenians can live and govern themselves and also publically admit the wrongs of the Genocide and yes apologize for it. These things would at least be a start for compensation perhaps and at least illustrate that the U.S. has done far more to rectify wrongs and aknowledge such then Turkey ever has done - or likely will ever do. Now I should point out that where Armenians were Ottoman citizens and where their were laws (legal reforms) in existance that promissed Armenians certain rights and where the idea of citizenship is in part to be protected from abuse by the government the Armenians were terribly betrayed. Additionally the actions taken by the CUP and thier minons - in many cases perpetuated joyfully by many common Turks who slaughtered and plundered innocent Armenians with a great deal of joy etc - the acts against the Native Americans were more collateral effects then deliberate intention. Sure Europeans and later Americans wished to possess the lands of the Indians and in some case wanted them dead and gone - but there was no real central policy or effort to do such (over a short term period) - much of it just came about as a result of the land grab and associated actions. In any event I don't argue that what occured was terrible and could certainly be considered a genocide - certainly in result if not direct intention. Again though - on this forum we are primarily concerned with the Armenian Genocide. There are all sorts of injustices in history and in the world and we can hope that all wrongs can be righted (even knowing that this will likley never be) - but what we are most concerned here is our particualr tragedy - the one directly affecting us and our people that was caused by your people and is currently shamefully being denied. While we sympathise with the plights of others and support and wish for them the best - and also understand that justive will likley not be entirely forthcomming for them - we actively strive for justice in our case - as best as we can hope for. So in this case where do you stand? Are you here to hinder and deny such justice? Is it your wish that the perpetrators of such go unpunished and that the truth be unrecognized? Or perhaps do you understand how importantin it is for the truth to be known and acknowledged...for everyones sake....?

[Hovik]

Hi Hovik,

I guess you are referring to the private message (not an e-mail) which I read yesterday.

My bad, my memory fades after months pass, and PM is what I meant...

To be honest I start writing my reply. But when I reach to the points you mentioned at the end of your post I realized that it is useless to reply...

Au contraire! I think we are all waiting for your reply. The most important thing is that you address all issues presented in my post, it is VERY USEFUL to reply!

However, in order to show my respect to the time you have spend I am going to post my reply that I start preparing yesterday...

Thank you! I appreciate that.

Hi Tongue,

I might understand your reasons if you give it a try. Say the reason that Doberman pointed out, which is national security, seems to be reasonable. On the other hand Turkey recognizes the borders of Armenia, and doesn't refer to any sort of land demand from her. It is the other way around. It is the Armenians who suggests that Serves is not dead yet and personal applications for land is a possibility for future...

Ok, for me, the most important reasons for Turkish recognition of the OTTOMAN atrocity we call the Armenian Genocide are:

1. To allow the souls of those who suffered and died to finally rest.

2. To ensure that history is not raped of its meaning and of its purpose.

3. To educate the world about both the crime of Genocide, and the crime of denial of Genocide, so that we can try to prevent future cases of both crimes and advance civilization towards the day when we will never again see such inhumane acts.

****
I don't feel the Treaty of Sevres has anything to do with the above. Armenians recognize Sevres as any other treaty naturally because it has our signature on it. And naturally Armenia wouldn't recognize any other treaty which we did NOT sign, or which was imposed upon us. That is pure logic. But what does it have to do with what is right or wrong? With historical fact? With honor or pride? NOTHING. We need not speak of land, monetary, or any other reparations either. I believe we need recognition of the Genocide for the above three reasons. Only then can we move on.
****

Genocide is a crime. Which means that there should be guilty people who are responsible from it. Someone is innocent until proven guilty.

Agreed, you must be referring to the tribunals that were set up after the Genocide in which hundreds of officials were tried, convicted, and sentenced right?

UN has mechanisms, International Tribunal of Justice, etc.. Use those mechanisms. Identify the guilty people who are responsible from the "Genocide". Then return to me if I ever deny those people's responsibility from Genocide.

Oh I see... forwarding us to the UN... RIGHT...

Ok, Kemal, please explain something to me... Why is it, when we go to international bodies and legal entities for affirmation of the Armenian Genocide Turkey tells us we are trying to "drive a wedge" between Turkey and Armenia. Turkey tells us it shouldn't be decided by such entities, it should be decided by scholars, i think the exact words are "leave the matter to historians". Yet, this community has long since decided the issue. Most affirm that it was Genocide. The list is miles long, of historians, including those of Turkish descent. There is however, a very short list of historians who deny the genocide happened. Yet, like the minority of lawmakers who deny the fact, the historians often have paper trails linking them to the Turkish Government. This is quite interesting isn't it? Why is it that historians who affirm the Genocide aren't bribed or in any way paid off by the Armenian Government or Armenian lobby, but those who deny the Genocide have a price. For example the Turkish Government giving $1,000,000 for the chair of the Near Eastern Studies Department at Princeton University. The occupier(s) of which have adamantly denied the Armenian Genocide. Suprised? I didn't think so! But please tell me how much the Armenian Government uses so much as a "dram" of its money to influence those who affirm the Genocide such as these few: Deborah Lipstadt, Samantha Power, Taner Akcam, Fatma Gocek, Jay Winter, The International Association of Genocide Scholars

In fact name ONE historian that affirms the Armenian Genocide who is influenced monetarily by the Republic of Armenia! Good luck and happy hunting!

So Kemal, what do you think about telling Armenians to go to historians, then when historians assert the facts, you say go to international bodies, then when we do and they accept historical findings you say, no no go to historians. Don't you think it's a little absurd? Do you or your government actually expect us to go back and forth depending on how nervous you get about recognition?

I am sorry but I can't support something that is not proven yet. Blaming people who are not responsible from genocide is as bad as committing a genocide.

One more time: Are you sure you aren't talking about the Turkish tribunal after the genocide in which many who were responsible for the genocide were tried, convicted, and sentenced? So your own nations legal systems decision isn't proof enough for you? Who blamed anyone who wasn't responsible for committing genocide here? Please tell me, maybe I missed something but as far as I know we all agree that Ottoman government officials were responsible for committing genocide, and aforementioned officials were convicted. So what are you referring to? And before you talk about what's as bad as blaming someone in genocide, remember who you are... a denier of genocide.

[Gavur]

Hi Gavur,

Seems you are forgetting Turkish. Justice is not Hak. It is Adalet. Hak is Rights. The "sick homosexual culture" you are referring (That is to say the "Rights shouldn't be taken as granted" or more correctly "Fight for your rights because they won't be granted otherwise") is the culture where the modern democracies are standing on. If something is sick in these statements it is hardly the meaning...

Take care.

Kemal.
I stand corrected I need to take out my dictionary out and use it but justice and rights go hand in hand in civilized country's.Let me ask you this Is a man less guilty about a crime because he has amnesia ?specially if its a selective memory loss?

[Hovik]

Is a man less guilty about a crime because he has amnesia ?specially if its a selective memory loss?

Beautiful point Gavur!

[Hovik]

Another opinion from my e-mail inbox

FW: The 3 R's
Recognition, Reparation, Restitution...


In all the talk about genocide that I have seen on the list, there has, I think, been no mention of the last two of these R’s--discussion focuses exclusively on the first one without recognising which, of course, the other two are academic.
But is there indeed a possibility that if Recognition of genocide is conceded some form of Reparation and Restitution may legally follow?
Is the reason that Turkish state/government/society is unwilling to shift its position, even to the extent of laying responsibility for genocide at the door of the Ottoman state or some part thereof, fear of the practical consequences? And public exposure of those in Turkey who benefited from the assets of the ‘departed’ minorities?

Can you please enlighten me. Perhaps the upcoming conference will have something to say about these issues.

Caroline Finkel

[Tongue]

I am sorry but I can't support something that is not proven yet.

hahaha a typical response.
It's only been 90 years Kemal, just 90... Some of the survivors are still alive. What "proof" do you need? Nevermind, when it comes to the genocide, you are blind to the proof.

[Gavur]

Your people thaught you and me this xxxx never happened!what were they trying to hide ,is not this selective memory loss? doesn't this conspiracy show intention??????
Pretend keep on pretending Kemal
where there's smoke there is fire!