Turkey suspends French military contacts

[1.5 million]

Hovik - what you (and everyone) needs to understand is that the Turks (of the late 19th and early 20th century) and ever since to this day - see themselves as the victims of Imperialism - and that they have overcome such - but are still under attack. Thus they see the Armenian Genocide as only an aspect of this (propoganda) war against them - this is their reality and they are incapable of seeing and understanding the Armenian Genocide for what it was. Obviously there is an aspect to the Turkish view that is based in fact - but it needs to be understood objectively and not taken as if it is the only story worth mentioning (and of course the Turks of today just take it way too far - blindingly so - as Ataturk inc. intended...)...and what is really funny to me - is that the Ottoman EMPIRE was 600 years an Imperialistic power and worse and those who did wrest themselves free of such were doing the right thing...yet the Turks completely fail to see and understand this...they were the "baddies" even before they commited one of the greatest crimes against humanity that the world has ever known...

[phantom]

Suspending French military contract is a wise act. Turkey ofcourse considered the issue and the balance of it then made its decision. Now Armenian Diaspora is reaping the fruit of its lobbying across the globe that much is sure. Protesting French is okay but America is an important ally. Losing such a partner because of Armenian problem and lobbying would be unwise, especially at a time when finally weapon technology transfers have begun. Turkey is taking active part in the production of F-35 the new fighter jet which will give new horizons about the weapon production of Turkey. Let's see if the recognition passes the senate of America. Then we should consider our course of action.

How about accepting and making peace with the truth! Have you considered taking that novel course of action!

[phantom]

Maybe. Or maybe they don't think of it as a genocide, but as casualties of a civil war in which all sides were attacking.

Hovik has already done a good job responding to your message. However, I will add that Turkey's institutionalized amnesia and fabrication of the "civil war" thesis is a byproduct of its "f you" attitude on this subject. If the Turkish people bother to read up on this subject, then like all rational people they should be able to come to the rational conclusion that this was no civil war. Other than Genocide, there is no rational explanation for what happened to the Armenians. That the vast majority of Turks even today don't manage to come to that conclusion, despite the mountains of evidence, and despite the recognition of the world's foremost experts on the topic, suggests that their "f you" attitude persists.

[bell-the-cat]

I don't believe a single Turkish member of this forum has actually researched the subject outside what his/her government has provided them.

I'd say, the truth is that 99% of Turks don't give a damn about the "Armenian Question" one way or another, and only hear about Armenians in the context of some ian or some other ian advocating something that will hurt the people of Turkey in some way that seems to have nothing at all to do with the issue of genocide recognition.
For example, the constant harping on by Armenians that Turkey should not be allowed to proceed with the EU membership process until it recognises the genocide. Recognition of the Armenian genocide by Turkey is actually of ZERO importance to the EU, and will always be zero. But, of course, the existence of the demand gives ultra-nationalists in Turkey the ideal excuse for avoiding tackling all the REAL issues that are in the way of its possible EU membership, issues that if solved would benefit the people of Turkey now, regardless of any future EU membership. For the Turkish fascist, the actions of Armenian lobbying are actually a blessing. Though the bigest blessing for the Turkish fascist seems to be the preference of Turks to continue to live in a hole rather than accept outside advice on how to climb out of it.

[1.5 million]

Phantom - while I fully agree and share your views on this subject - consider this - as long as there are Justin McCarthy's, Guenter Levy's, Norman Stones and such out there - peddling their half baked crap - that just happens to dovetail into the Turkish official stance and one that has been inbred into Turks - who see themselves as the true victims and Genocide "claims" as part of this international plot against them - nothing will change. Particularly if you consider that the Turkish Government still actively and aggressively denies - that they publish account of Armenian violence against Turks around (ussually after) this period and exaggerate its importance - etc etc - well it is all just too easy for most all Turks to accept this line and not go againt the grain (into territory of Turkish guilt for crimes and the adoption of a "traitorous" stance which "denigrates Turks and Turkey" etc. Unlike you and I and some other Armenian who really care and wish to know/understand beyond the surface - most Armenian don't at all read the Turkish garbage put out as they know where it is comming from...well most Turks feel the same way about the real history - beliveing it to be a sham that is just meant to disgrace Turkey - so they (most Turks) aren't going to read and accept the evidence regardless of its foundation and clear implications...they jst aren't going to go there - and to hope for this (outside of a very small minority of Turks) is just futile. What get me however - is when otherwise educated/aware Turks continue with these excuses and denial when they should bloody well know better - that I do find sad...as well as the entire history and circumstances that both brought about the Genocide in the first place and continue to allow Turkey and the Turks to deny it - and get away with such - with impunity. Regardless of the motivations and (faux) concern of the EU - it is certainly one of our best hopes for forcing the issue with the Turkish Government - but we all are aware of the Europeans historical (lack of) follow through and (lack of) real depth of concern (over transgression against humanity and requisit attempts at justice)...so no - we shouldn't fall into the trap of overly getting our hopes up again...what we really need is for sufficient numbers of educated Turks to suddenly develop a conscience...

[1.5 million]

For the Turkish fascist, the actions of Armenian lobbying are actually a blessing. Though the bigest blessing for the Turkish fascist seems to be the preference of Turks to continue to live in a hole rather than accept outside advice on how to climb out of it.

So true...as it is true for extremists anywhere/everywhere - look at the Israeli- Arab mess...each sides extremists love it when the other side goes overboard...drives more folks on their side into the extremist camp and perpetuates the fued...these Turks are very aware of and have always exploited the "everyone is against us" - "so we have to stick together and defend our honor" type of mentality...rally the wagons around in a defensive perimeter etc (and anyone who is not with us is against us...and is a traitorus enemy of the state!

[elendil]

hahahaha...yeah we really need the Turkish technology and know how otherwise the whole thing will fail...lol

America will not learn from us naturally we will learn from America during the process. That is why we should not protest in terms of arms deals. How did you reach your conclusion from my post for god's sake?

Funny that you (and your nation) advocate (and practice) blackmail to push your nation's dishonest agenda. First it seems interference in the internal affairs of another nation - what business is it of Turkey's anyway (and you guys keep saying that Turkey of today is not the same as Ottoman's of the past...though of course all see/know this is more lie then truth)...secondly I thought you guys were saying to let historians decide...seems you can't get around near constant political action (of the dirty kind) to force your perspective onto others...sad.

Considering the fact that other nation's parliaments and goverments take decisions and enforcement laws regarding Armenian problem, I dont see why we should not take action regarding their interference in our history at the level of states. Turkey is a country, it can make any manuever it pleases within the limits of diplomatic rules for its future and benefits. If historians will
Turkey's is Ottoman Empire's son, though son is not father himself, you can not think of the child without the influence of the parent.

[1.5 million]

Elendil you state that Turkey took the wise course then you say that US Congressmen or some such should take heed (regarding AG resolutions & such juxtiposed against Turkish weapon contracts...etc) - so I am just countering concerning who really needs who...(these days)

How are (speech) laws in France or resolutions that have no binding impact on Turkey etc - have anything to do with (interferrence in ) Turkey's history? You guys just make up want you want anyway regardless - and this has alwasy been the case. However to react in the way that Turkey does and has - is clearly a sign that Turkey has some real problems IMO.

Can't you understand - no one but Turkey is fooled by the myth of Turkish history as proclaimed by your government and believed by most Turks. It strikes me as really odd that an educated Turk such as yourself seems to have the very same blinders on in this regard and cannot see around them.

[elendil]

Elendil you state that Turkey took the wise course then you say that US Congressmen or some such should take heed (regarding AG resolutions & such juxtiposed against Turkish weapon contracts...etc) - so I am just countering concerning who really needs who...(these days)

You are making me lose my faith in my English. All I said was and is protesting French military contract was fine and good since it will hurt France and there are other suppliers. Turkey taking its time about its responses is a positive thing, it means country is maturing, it takes its time. However protesting America in terms of arms deal will prove to be unwise since they are an important ally and there are many coalitioned weapon projects where we take part actively which will teach us many things about technology, know how and future vision of Turkey's weapon industry. There are other ways to show America that we dont like what they are doing. We need America on many issues, America needs us in some issues.

How are (speech) laws in France or resolutions that have no binding impact on Turkey etc - have anything to do with (interferrence in ) Turkey's history? You guys just make up want you want anyway regardless - and this has alwasy been the case. However to react in the way that Turkey does and has - is clearly a sign that Turkey has some real problems IMO.

Nope, France's law of punishing denial is nonsense. Because while it is indeed France's birth given right to make its own laws and be independent on it, passing a law that protects a certain element of society while condemning another(which is us) and giving decisions about another country's actions of the past, is not within the context of a serious country's senate. If there has been genocide in Ruanda, the most stupid thing to do would be deciding that anyone denying Ruanda genocide will face up to 3 years prisonment in Turkey.
How dumb can you get?(I mean France) What purpose will this serve? You will jail a few Turks, then their fathers and mother will protest, you will arrest them too, then when entire population of Turks will protest what will you do?
Jail them all? I prophecize many burning cars in Paris..
But you are right about Turkey having real problems. There is the issue of 301 which is as stupid as France's law. The economy, the Kurdish problem. But to where do these problems belong? Who will solve it? Turkey itself and no one else...

Can't you understand - no one but Turkey is fooled by the myth of Turkish history as proclaimed by your government and believed by most Turks. It strikes me as really odd that an educated Turk such as yourself seems to have the very same blinders on in this regard and cannot see around them.

I generally answer the posts directly but if you read my previous posts, you will see I see around many things.

But I can tell you how Turks regard the matter.(Inside)
Uneducated Turks dont know the issue simply, they have two things only. The goverement altered history and the stories of their grandparents and these people go silent about this issue. Educated Turks, you will find out see this event as a grand conspiracy against Turkey. They are right but not in the sense they believe. Armenians have been massacred, that is your tragedy and the trauma of this event haunts you till this day. And Europe or America uses this pain as a bargain element. While Turks fight this issue, we dont regard (That is how it is among my people, no hard feelings) you as people simply but say, the sword of the enemy. While we block the strike, your people bleed, your wounds get worse. It is sort of a paradox. To feel better, we disregard your sorrow and move on being the stronger side of the affair.
You however can not. We do not understand why Armenians can not move on. Because our history is all about moving on and we are pretty good at it. Armenians however are a different folk, you want your existence to echo within the walls of your churches, you want your traditional dances to last.
Simply we are so close but also so different. Our view of life differs much from you we do not understand the problem. The worse thing is looking at map, trade,economy, military it does not seem that understanding is a necessity.
(Remember I am talking about my nation, no hard feelings)

[1.5 million]

Elendil - I am one who understands how (various) Turks think on this issue (or don't).

Armenians and Turks - for all their similarities (through 600 years of living together/at least next to one anohter) are very different in a number of ways. Armenians have had a distinct identity for milenia and it always has been a major souce of pride and the element of the culture (incl very much the religion) has played a central role for Armenians when/for thinking about themselves and who they are. However at the same time Armenians are incredibly individualistic and find it very difficult to agree amongts themselves (and to unify politically)...we mostly just want to be let to do our own thing - and we are orientated first towards our families more then anything else. (not so concerned with larger political undertakings and conquests and heirarchies and such). Turks on the other hand - well most weren't necissarily even Turks not too long ago - for various reasons. Many have been assimilated form other ethnicities and cultures and many have strong tribal affiliations that have superceded the concept of being Turkish/Turkic for the most part (until recently). Turks have always been adopters (look at the various Empires that Turks started after conquering then melding with the locals and adopting their ways with a bit of a Turkish twist (even Ottoman Empire is largely an adoption/adaptation/continuation of Byzantine essentialy)....And Islam was pretty much the binding force for the last several hundred years - but a very large and loose one (not a specific applicable version as with the Armenian church to the Armenian nation). Turks also respond to heirarchy - follow orders - that sort of thing...its no wonder the wolf is the symbol chosen etc...(OK that was very simple/high level and not meant to be the answer to all things concerning us etc). Anyway it is no wonder that Armenians hang on to this issue (as it was they who largely suffered and were destroyed and their cherished history/nation truncated) and Turks have moved on. Its also interesting how Ataturk made sure that this would be an irreversable transition as well (in a number of ways) - but one in regard to the language/writing...anyway I think you and I both understand thses things pretty much. And I am just too tired to continue what I was goign to write about anyway so this will be it for now...lol