Please Sign This Petition: Özür diliyoruz

[Sako]

Arda, try to say what you say as simply as possible, Lal doesn't know really good English and I don't say that in a bad way Lal, I just want us to understand each other better. I'm starting to simplify my already simple posts as well.

[ardakilic]

You may disagree with mr.arda in many aspects. But please do not classify him with your thoughts. Arda is not insulting to anyone as far as I read his comments in the forum. Maybe he dislikes Ataturk and he may freely express his dislike with any comment against him. Why should this create any discomfort in you? I respect Ataturk with his leadership and personally I also like "some" of his personal features. There also things that I strongly oppose to him. But ok I mean. This is me. And I don t give anything to anyone's thoughts about him. Why should I? If you say, do you think like the same if anyone here would insult Ataturk, then I would just leave this case to the insulter him/herself. Anyone can be also offensive against him since the benefits that Ataturk gained for Turkey was the natural losses for others. This is how it is. He was a real enemy for a serious majority of people in our region. And if I were them, I would also be without today's thoughts of mine. The important thing here is that not to darken these days with the thoughts that we have about the people of the past. Let s simplify the case with Ataturk. You like Fenerbahce (do you by the way? ) and Arda does not...It "must" be as simple as this. If you say that it can't, then yes dear..We have to divide apart. Because there would be no room for us to live together here with all these millionated differential of thoughts.

I wish that burdened subject would be so simple as supporting a football team.

It is breaking a chain whose shadow darkens our mind for a century; Ittihadist-Kemalist tradition.

Please look at Turkey in 1908, and now. A complete century!

[ardakilic]

especially ı cant respect to mr arda . ı do not consider turks fight for independence as a make up story. ı cant criticize great ataturk as genocider or dictator. ı mean everybody was dictator in those years. you dont think todays poitics.

I am sorry, but it is typical Kemalist response lal.

"Everybody was dictator in that time". This argument is absolutely out of base.

Let me explain:

1. You accept Kemal is a dictator but you legalize it saying "everybody do that".

2. OK, that's true. In those times (1914-40) there are 24 dictatorship in all over the world, very similar to Kemalist one. But: Today, every of them collapsed and criticized. But Kemalism is still alive.

3. So-called war indeoendence is not totally invented. But lal, ok, more simple, let us talk about numbers and let us see Kemalists didnot fight against "enemies" but fighted against their people.

According to General Staff (Genelkurmay in Turkish) statistics, in whole "War of Independence", 9200 Turkish soliders died.

But in only Independence Courts (Istiklal Mahkemeleri in Turkish), 9000 people hanged. Can you imagine? Do you see who is the enemy of Kemalists?

[livefromistanbu]

hello friends

hello from istanbul,

first of all let me note how much I was impressed by the overall decency of the messages on this thread - thank you all.

I'm Turkish, raised in a predominantly secular environment even though officially I'm tagged as Muslim. well - it had been quite a while that I concluded that religion wasn't something for me (put as mildly as possible - no offense for believers) though.

I have signed the petition and I have one good reason for that. I remember asking my Armenian friend from university -Kirkor- in my -among friends- well known direct style (sometimes a bit offensive I'm afraid) whether or not he was thinking that a genocide or the big catastrophe or the massacre took place. He gave me the turmoil times xxxx; an answer that he had prepared and was apperantly reusing everytime to soothe the turkish conscience. what stroke me though was the tiniest trembling I caught in his voice. I am a pretty open minded person so I was sure that Kirkor wouldn't fear my response upon his real answer. But I guess, he couldn't live out of it. His sincere thoughts were left behind a curtain and I doubt that he was daring to take those thoughts out into light even for himself. Then I started to think - not about the history but about the trembling in his voice.

I realized that the racism in Turkey was lived in a very passive-aggresive way. On the surface we are wonderful people who love to help especially foreigners. It is very evident on your visits to Turkey. People are very friendly, compassionate and helpful but we are behind the curtains quite racist.

This does not make however turkish mean are worse than any other nation or ethnicity. Every culture shows discriminative characteristics. It's in our dna - an instinct for survival. It only shows that we are human. just like anyone reading this post. there is a song by sezen aksu that I like very much. the lyrics goes like: "masum degiliz hicbirimiz". "non of us are innocent."

then I was freed. to call it genocide or not was just a detail and a useless discussion. some people who shared the same culture i inherited had failed as human beings. this was what really mattered.

so i'm sorry for the trembling in Kirkor's voice. I'm sorry because mine, my friends' and my family's passive aggresive acceptance of the status quo has made him live in such a repressive atmosphere. and unlike the things that had happened some 90 years ago, i was directly responsible about it. It needed an apology - and i signed the petition.

now some of you will think that i have freed myself from the brain washer apparatus of the state. maybe true but we have to remind ourselves that most of us are products of such apparatuses.

sorry for the disorganised message. but i have to leave now.

in the hope of a borderless world.

[Joseph]

hello from istanbul,

first of all let me note how much I was impressed by the overall decency of the messages on this thread - thank you all.

I'm Turkish, raised in a predominantly secular environment even though officially I'm tagged as Muslim. well - it had been quite a while that I concluded that religion wasn't something for me (put as mildly as possible - no offense for believers) though.

I have signed the petition and I have one good reason for that. I remember asking my Armenian friend from university -Kirkor- in my -among friends- well known direct style (sometimes a bit offensive I'm afraid) whether or not he was thinking that a genocide or the big catastrophe or the massacre took place. He gave me the turmoil times xxxx; an answer that he had prepared and was apperantly reusing everytime to soothe the turkish conscience. what stroke me though was the tiniest trembling I caught in his voice. I am a pretty open minded person so I was sure that Kirkor wouldn't fear my response upon his real answer. But I guess, he couldn't live out of it. His sincere thoughts were left behind a curtain and I doubt that he was daring to take those thoughts out into light even for himself. Then I started to think - not about the history but about the trembling in his voice.

I realized that the racism in Turkey was lived in a very passive-aggresive way. On the surface we are wonderful people who love to help especially foreigners. It is very evident on your visits to Turkey. People are very friendly, compassionate and helpful but we are behind the curtains quite racist.

This does not make however turkish mean are worse than any other nation or ethnicity. Every culture shows discriminative characteristics. It's in our dna - an instinct for survival. It only shows that we are human. just like anyone reading this post. there is a song by sezen aksu that I like very much. the lyrics goes like: "masum degiliz hicbirimiz". "non of us are innocent."

then I was freed. to call it genocide or not was just a detail and a useless discussion. some people who shared the same culture i inherited had failed as human beings. this was what really mattered.

so i'm sorry for the trembling in Kirkor's voice. I'm sorry because mine, my friends' and my family's passive aggresive acceptance of the status quo has made him live in such a repressive atmosphere. and unlike the things that had happened some 90 years ago, i was directly responsible about it. It needed an apology - and i signed the petition.

now some of you will think that i have freed myself from the brain washer apparatus of the state. maybe true but we have to remind ourselves that most of us are products of such apparatuses.

sorry for the disorganised message. but i have to leave now.

in the hope of a borderless world.

Welcome! Hosgeldiniz


You hit on a very point, one which I can attest to as well since my wife's family still lives in Turkey. The situation for Armenians in Turkey is not an easy one. On the surface everyone is friendly...as long as you keep silent and never complain.

[ardakilic]

On the surface everyone is friendly...as long as you keep silent and never complain.

I think it is the main difference between totalitarianism and authoritarianism.

In totalitarian states, you can see the hostility directly. It is like a smell in the air.

But in authoritarian states, like Turkey now since 1950 (before that it was totalitarian), everything seems normal; for example for a tourist. But in deep, you face the dark side.

[Sako]

I'll join Joseph in saying welcome livefromistanbu and I'm happy to know you signed the petition and hope everything ends well there. Thanks for being considerate as well, it's Turks like you that can make a difference, which you already did.

[bell-the-cat]

Your problem is ,you want to follow but you find it difficult,you want to lead but find your self unprapered and to stand by and watch is exhausting,so what to do.What to do?

Emigrate and live in the diaspora. There you can comment on anything in complete safety and (being free from having the possiblility of doing anything practical) you don't even need to leave the comfort of your armchair. No difficulties; no preparation; no exhaustion - problem solved!

[No Pasaran]

This argument is also a Kemalist argument in order to avoid the discussion.

Whenever you propose, for example, "Kemalism is...", they reply "No, Kemalism is not a rigid ideology. It is a doctrine of pro-science, pro-rationality and modernism. It is so flexible in order to fit present civilization level".

Please see the writings of Mahmut Esat xxxkurt (Justice Minister of Kemal), Recep Peker (General Secretary of Kemal) and Tekin Alp (aka Moiz Cohen, ideologue of Kemalism).

So you see, i never refer to anti-Kemalist writers like Nuri Dersimi, İsmail Beşikçi or Abdurrahman Dilipak.

Have a look on original Kemalist resources and see it is so similar to Mussolini's fascism. Only much more bloodier than Italian one.

well actually i wanted to write kemalism is not my ideology. i was an anti-kemalist before and all i do was just writing against mustafa kemal ( still my parents cant put a turkish flag in our window at national holidays) i just want a good future for all people living in middle east. if i wanted change people's denier looking to AG i think it is not a good way against their all belief. i dont like chp, mhp akp, shp, dsp or any other political party in turkey. if we are here for talk about AG and what we can do i am ready. I know there is many bad things in our government and history. but i am not gonna talk about how much bad we are especially nearly half of my family killed and burned by greek bandits and greek army. btw i am half greek half turkish.

[imported_crusader1492]

Turkish MP Urges Parliament to Apologize to Armenians

Published: Monday December 22, 2008


ISTANBUL (Marmara)--A Turkish parliament member's request Sunday that the legislature apologize to Armenians for the “events of 1915” has caused an uproar in parliament, with members hurling personal insults at one another.

Democratic Society Party (DTP) member Osman Euzcelik brought the matter up during parliament's discussion of the education ministry budget and went on to recall the Armenian massacres by using the Kurdish word that describes Genocide.

He also said that he had heard stories about the Armenian killings as child growing up in Turkey and added that the killings were planned by the sultan of the Ottoman Empire and were carried out by groups called Hamiddiye, which also had Kurdish members.

Euzcelik likened the campaign to kill Armenians to the current campaign waged against the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK).

“These groups killed a large number of Armenians. A lot of times they would line up the Armenians and shoot them in the chest. All Armenians of Martin were killed and some fled to Syria,” said Euzcelik, who added that his grandfather's family provided refuge for Genocide survivors.

Nevzad Pakdil, who was presiding over the parliament session, interrupted Euzcelik, blasting him for “insulting the society in which you live.”

Euzcelik said that he was apologizing to Armenians on his own behalf.

Pakdil intervened again attempting to stifle the parliament member. Members of the Justice and Development Party (AKP) applauded the Pakdil while another DTP member, Surru Saken directed his anger to Paktdil by saying, “Mr. Chairman, you represent the Marash district and you know full well the extent of the tragedy that unfolded there.”

This comment prompted a member of the AKP to walk toward DTP members and begin screaming at his fellow parliamentarians. Another parliament member intervened to stop what could have become a physical altercation.

“Should we not talk about the facts? There is not one Assyrian left,” screamed another DTP member during the commotion, which was followed by several DTP members leaving the parliament.

Earlier in October, DTP leader, Ahmet Turk, denounced the government's policy regarding the Kurdish issue, describing it as “cultural and societal genocide."

"The policy of denial, assimilation and eradication has affected people. Only the Kurds resisted. They still resist," Turk told demonstrators in the south-eastern city of Diyarbakir on October 22.

DTP, the country's main Kurdish party, has been under siege by the Turkish government, facing a possible ban by the constitutional court in what is widely recognized as being a politically charged case aimed at decapitating the party.



Monday, December 22, 2008