Armenia: the end of the debate?

[Hellektor]

Re: Armenia: the end of the debate?

Now, now... the truth about history should never be revealed or else people would start to realize they were living a lie...

Don't worry! She's not going to find a place on this planet called “eastern Anatolia” so I'll keep it to myself.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Armenia: the end of the debate?

you filthy J whore! Show me where the hell “eastern Anatolia” is and I'll tell you whether your biblical six-million-gas-chamber hoax was genocide or not.

Now, now... the truth about history should never be revealed or else people would start to realize they were living a lie...

[Hellektor]

Re: Armenia: the end of the debate?

Armenia: the end of the debate?
By Gwynne Dyer

THE FIRST great massacre of the 20th century happened in eastern Anatolia 94 years ago.

...If genocide just means killing a lot of people, then this certainly was one. If genocide means a policy that aims to exterminate a particular ethnic or religious group, then it wasn’t.

you filthy J whore! Show me where the hell “eastern Anatolia” is and I'll tell you whether your biblical six-million-gas-chamber hoax was genocide or not.

[AlphaPapa]

Re: Armenia: the end of the debate?

Exactly. So what does that say about the vaunted authority of someone who, at the point he said that, had received honors and recognition and had the better part of his career as an "historian" behind him? It means he can change his tune and betray the truth at the drop of hat for the highest bidder, as someone said earlier in this thread. And there are plenty of "credentialed"
individuals and organizations who are ready to push him forward and give him top billing. It's time for us to wise up.

Armenias neighbor to the west is filled with such experts. Armenia DOES need to wise up. I read in hetq website about how when they went to bursa, they were given a book 'about turkey'...and how it talked about how those Armenians killed 100,000 Turks.

We need to realize what we're dealing with. As Dodi Gago buys a water bottling plant in Bulgaria, and Armenia sells nationally owned assets to Russian companies, that it still has an obligation to its people and the government is not just some damn business oracle.

[Diranakir]

Re: Armenia: the end of the debate?

Exactly. So what does that say about the vaunted authority of someone who, at the point he said that, had received honors and recognition and had the better part of his career as an "historian" behind him? It means he can change his tune and betray the truth at the drop of hat for the highest bidder, as someone said earlier in this thread. And there are plenty of "credentialed"
individuals and organizations who are ready to push him forward and give him top billing. It's time for us to wise up.

[Catharsis]

Re: Armenia: the end of the debate?

"...It was certainly a genocide, but it was not premeditated, nor was it systematic...."

Dyer shows complete ignorance there since Genocide by its very definition already means premeditated and systematic.

[Diranakir]

Re: Armenia: the end of the debate?

For those who are still under the illusion that Gwynne Dyer is a straight talker without an agenda, please note his confusion about the meaning of the word "genocide". Apparently, between the writing of the article (from which the following quotes are taken) and his column which is the subject of this thread he reached some kind of enlightenment on that question and is now ready to say without hesitation, and assert to the whole world, that it WASN'T genocide. What cleared his mind in the intervening years? ? ?

http://www.gwynnedyer.com/articles/Gwynne%20Dyer%20article_%20%20We%20Really%20Massacred%20Them.txt

" The Armenian desire to have their national tragedy given the
same status as the . . . . Holocaust is understandable, but it is mistaken.
The facts of the case are horrifying, and certainly justify calling the
events in eastern Turkey in 1915-16 a genocide. . . . . It was certainly a genocide, but it was not premeditated, nor was it systematic...."

[Diranakir]

Re: Armenia: the end of the debate?

In addition, if one looks into what Mr. Dyer has written on the Armenian Genocide (though he does not call it that) one is struck by the generous, compassionate allowance he makes for the mental and emotional distress suffered by the perpetrators of the genocide and which he presents as making the "crime" ( his own term) perfectly understandable. He tells us they were running scared and didn't quite know what to do. They were in "panic" at imminent victories of the allies with a southern assault, all aided by Armenians (who were fighting for their life and had no state institutions they could fully rely on). Gripped with this "panic" they methodically went through every Armenian town, village and hamlet in Anatolia over a period of at least two years and coolly told everyone to get out and march for the deserts of Der Zor, all to prepare for an assault that never happened! Ridiculous! And does he show a shred of sympathy for the distress of these innocents torn from their homes to be tortured in death marches and sent to their death? He does not. All his sympathy is for those in Ottoman uniforms. This is the measure of the man, this high paid and very successful "historian".

From Mr. Dyer's: Turkish 'Falsifiers' and Armenian 'Deceivers': Historiography and the Armenian Massacres, Middle Eastern Studies, Vol. 12, No. 1 (Jan. 1976), pp. 99-107

"When more work is completed on the period I believe that historians will come to see Talat, Enver and their associates not so much as evil men but as desperate, frightened, unsophisticated men struggling to keep their nation afloat in a crisis far graver than they had anticipated when they first entered the war (the Armenian decisions were taken at the height of the crisis of the Dardanelles), reacting to events rather than creating them, and not fully realizing the "tent of the horrors they had set in motion in 'Turkish Armenia' until they were too deeply committed to withdraw. As for the complicity of ordinary Turks with their leaders, hatred and revenge and blind panic were the motives for the behaviour of the Ottoman army and the Muslim Population of eastern Anatolia in the Armenian massacres, scarcely creditable motives, nor ones an Armenian is likely to forgive, but common enough in all nations and even understandable in the Turkish situation in the East in 1915."

[Catharsis]

Re: Armenia: the end of the debate?

What absolute tosh, how are Armenians getting a good deal from this, this signs away historical Armenian claims, and it can by way of wording harm Artsakh, who is this idiot anyway and having a blog that a bunch of people view does not make him right, its once again probably Turkish financial influence driving this, I wonder how close he is with the Turkish government

The Turkish government for decades has denied and ignored the resolutions by the Association of Genocide Scholars (whose countless members are amongst the chairs of genocide studies and international genocide prevention groups) to recognize the Armenian Genocide. The Turkish government has spent billions in their genocide denial campaign to "recruit" corrupt and immoral "scholars" like Justin McCarthy or Heath Lowry who have no moral or academic standards and would stoop so low. I cannot say that Dyer is one of them with certainty, since I do not have direct evidence, however I would not be surprised at all, given the treatment he has received at the hands of the Turkish government, while scholars who have published works on the Armenian Genocide are vociferously attacked and silenced by the fascist junta inside Turkey.

[Anoush]

Re: Armenia: the end of the debate?

What absolute tosh, how are Armenians getting a good deal from this, this signs away historical Armenian claims, and it can by way of wording harm Artsakh, who is this idiot anyway and having a blog that a bunch of people view does not make him right, its once again probably Turkish financial influence driving this, I wonder how close he is with the Turkish government

Very well said Pedro jan.