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Armenia: the end of the debate?

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  • Pedro Xaramillo
    replied
    Re: Armenia: the end of the debate?

    Originally posted by Jos View Post
    Armenia: the end of the debate?
    By Gwynne Dyer


    THE FIRST great massacre of the 20th century happened in eastern Anatolia 94 years ago. Armenians all over the world insist that their ancestors who died in those events were the victims of a deliberate genocide, and that there can be no reconciliation with the Turks until they admit their guilt. But now the Armenians back home have made a deal.

    On October 10, the Turkish and Armenian foreign ministers signed a accord in Zurich that reopens the border between the two countries, closed since 1993, and creates a joint historical commission to determine what actually happened in 1915. It is a triumph for reason and moderation, so the nationalists in both countries attacked it at once.

    The most anguished protests came from the Armenian diaspora: eight million people living mainly in the United States, France, Russia, Iran and Lebanon. There are only three million people living in Armenia itself, and remittances from the diaspora are twice as large as the country’s entire budget, so the views of overseas Armenians matter.

    Unfortunately, their views are quite different from those of the people who actually live in Armenia. For Armenians abroad, making the Turks admit that they planned and carried out a genocide is supremely important. Indeed, it has become a core part of their identity.

    For most of those who are still in Armenia, getting the Turkish border re-opened is a higher priority. Their poverty and isolation are so great that a quarter of the population has emigrated since the border was closed sixteen years ago, and trade with their relatively rich neighbour to the west would help to staunch the flow.

    Moreover, the agreement does not require Armenia to give back the Armenian-populated parts of Azerbaijan, its neighbour to the east. Armenia’s conquest of those lands in 1992-94 was why Turkey closed the border in the first place (many Turks see the Turkic-speaking Azeris as their “little brothers”), so in practical terms Armenian president Serge Sarkisian has got a very good deal.

    The communities of the diaspora, however, believe the Armenian government has sold them out on the genocide issue. Their remittances are crucial to Armenia, so President Serge Sarkisian has spent the past weeks travelling the world, trying to calm their fury. In the end, he will probably succeed, if only because they have nowhere else to go.

    But can any practical consideration justify abandoning the traditional Armenian demand that Turkey admit to a policy of genocide? Yes it can, because it is probably the wrong demand to be making.

    Long ago, when I was a budding historian, I got sidetracked for a while by the controversy over the massacres of 1915. I read the archival reports on British and Russian negotiations with Armenian revolutionaries after the Ottoman empire entered the First World War on the other side in early 1915. I even read the documents in the Turkish General Staff archives ordering the deportation of the Armenian population from eastern Anatolia later that year. What happened is quite clear.

    The British and the Russians planned to knock the Ottoman empire out of the war quickly by simultaneous invasions of eastern Anatolia, Russia from the north and Britain by landings on Turkey’s south coast. So they welcomed the approaches of Armenian nationalist groups and asked them to launch uprisings behind the Turkish lines to synchronise with the invasions. The usual half-promises about independence were made, and the Armenian groups fell for it.

    The British later switched their attack to the Dardanelles in an attempt to grab Istanbul, but they never warned their Armenian allies that the south-coast invasion was off. The Russians did invade, but the Turks managed to stop them. The Armenian revolutionaries launched their uprisings as promised, and the Turks took a terrible vengeance on the whole community.

    Istanbul ordered the Armenian minority to be removed from eastern Anatolia on the grounds that their presence behind the lines posed a danger to Turkish defences. Wealthy Armenians were allowed to travel south to Syria by train or ship, but for the impoverished masses it was columns marching over the mountains in the dead of winter. They faced rape and murder at the hands of their guards, there was little or no food, and many hundreds of thousands died.

    If genocide just means killing a lot of people, then this certainly was one. If genocide means a policy that aims to exterminate a particular ethnic or religious group, then it wasn’t. Armenians who made it alive to Syria, then also part of the Ottoman empire, were not sent to death camps. Indeed, they became the ancestors of today’s huge Armenian diaspora. Armenians living elsewhere in the empire, notably in Istanbul, faced abuse but no mass killings.

    It was a dreadful crime, and only recently has the public debate in Turkey even begun to acknowledge it. It was not a genocide if your standard of comparison is what happened to the European xxxs, but diaspora Armenians will find it very hard to give up their claim that it was. Nevertheless, the grown-ups are now in charge both in Armenia and in Turkey, and amazing progress is being made.

    n Gwynne Dyer is a London-based independent journalist whose articles are published in 45 countries.


    Copyright © Cyprus Mail 2009
    Tuesday, October 20, 2009
    http://www.cyprusedirectory.com/arti....aspx?ID=15731
    What absolute tosh, how are Armenians getting a good deal from this, this signs away historical Armenian claims, and it can by way of wording harm Artsakh, who is this idiot anyway and having a blog that a bunch of people view does not make him right, its once again probably Turkish financial influence driving this, I wonder how close he is with the Turkish government

    Leave a comment:


  • Anoush
    replied
    Re: Armenia: the end of the debate?

    Originally posted by Diranakir View Post
    "Claws and bite" have nothing to do with it. More to the point is the kind of credulity and deference you are willing to offer a writer solely on the basis of an impressive resumé, extensive publication, and unsubstantiated claims of having at some point in the past read this or that, let alone whether the right conclusions were drawn from what he read. And did you ever wonder whether his grasp of Ottoman Turkish was that good as a "budding" historian? Why does he not name one date, place or historic leader of the Armenian revolts he mentions? Yes, he is 'seemingly' independent. Well said. Is that good enough for you? It's not good enough for me; not good enough to justify his disseminating a blatant and cruel falsehood in his far flung media markets, namely that Syria was a salvation point for Armenian deportees, when in fact it was the place they were disposed of in the deserts of Der Zor like so much refuse. Despite his impressive resumé, all his perspicacity seems to vanish when it comes to the Armenians in 1915. Maybe you can explain that to me.
    Diranakir jan, When the majority of the women, old men/women and children were forced to walk the death marches down the Mesopotamian deserts, Der El Zor at Saahaddin was where they were all massacred. Thrown in the huge ditch in there and then burned to die. Whoever by chance weren't killed in there and finally half dead arrived to Syria; Talaat Pasha or I should say Talaat "posha" sent a telegram to the Syrian governor to kill every Armenian soul that arrived in Syria. Read Talaat's Black book that was on the internet just recently. But the benevolent Syrian governor did'nt follow Talaat "posha's" instructions. The Armenians in 1915 (all women, children and old folks) who finally arrived to Syria after being mostly killed, looted, raped; finally the remainder of these poor souls when they arrived in Syria three quarters dead skeletons were ordered by Talaat to be massacred. Indeed the systematic Genocide did occur from 1915 through 1923. It is all written day by day what was happening to the Armenian nation through the United States and the European media all over their papers. All one has to do is dig up the Times and several other papers of US and Europe of that time. The Western powers, Germany and Russia, they all witnessed the Armenian Genocide and they all turned a deaf ear. The turks mostly and above all the perpetrators (Talaat/Gemal/Enver) and later Attaturk were all guilty of the blood of more than 1.5 Million Armenians.
    Last edited by Anoush; 10-26-2009, 12:20 PM.

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  • avetis
    replied
    Re: Armenia: the end of the debate?

    Հայաստանում հարկավոր է հեղապոխություն վոր հայ ազգը մնա այս աշխարի երեսին և ոչ թե դառնա թանգարանային նմուշ:

    Leave a comment:


  • Anoush
    replied
    Re: Armenia: the end of the debate?

    Originally posted by Jos View Post
    All good questions. Perhaps the article was designed to stir controversy by raising more questions than answers, I can't be sure. Nevertheless, I would definitely like to see this journalist justify why he has come to the conclusions reached. I just don't see the merit in character assassinating someone just becuase they have an opinion that differs from the existing dogma. Research, discussion, debate in all forms should be encouraged and not just dismissed because of snide remarks or established doctrines.
    NOT when a systematic Genocide was committed by a nation and the facts have been much more than substantiated and turkey is on constant denial. Enough is enough! Don't make us more mad than we are already. Will that Dyer be able to speak in the same tone about the Haulocaust? Of course not, they'll get very angry justifiably so and so will we.
    Last edited by Anoush; 10-26-2009, 10:06 AM.

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  • Anoush
    replied
    Re: Armenia: the end of the debate?

    Originally posted by Eddo211 View Post
    This bull crap article by Gwynne Dyer has caused nothing but trouble..................Turks are already using it against us and running it into the ground every chance they get. @$#%&
    This idiot Dyer is kissing more and more furkey's ass. Why? Because they are bigger, stronger than us and they can give her money. She is another w'hore. What do you expect?

    Leave a comment:


  • avetis
    replied
    Re: Armenia: the end of the debate?

    AN ARMENIAN DIASPORA IN HUNGER STRIKE

    AFTER SEVEN MONTHS IN PRISON





    It is now seven months Whereas Avédis Bashar Kalaydjian, Armenian of Syria is imprisoned with the charge of said want offensive in the life of President Serge Sarkissian.

    Born in Aleppo and old today of 45 years, Kalaydjian is historians and political scientists. There émigré in Armenia in 2002 with his wife, singer Flora, obtained the Armenian nationality. There published in Armenia titled book "expansionism. "touranien Turkish and 70 martyrs peoples". Member of the "Republican" party desired resign due to the abuses to the illicit and injustices which the Karabakh fighters imprisonment were victims and which has been the witness. AT this words, it reports that it has taken, to knowledge, words virulent against his own party felt no longer be faithful to the ideology of Nejteh



    In his testimony, Kalaydjian has denied step the fact that the assassination of President was referred to a meeting between friends, but there said were hot air, launched at the course a lively in the vicinity of the mid-March discussion. He never been question for him to consider an any passage to the Act subsequently.



    In the letter sent to the President from his prison, Kalaydjian writes that it does was ever prepared to commit an indecent and in particular to kill President; witnesses meeting surrounding a cup of tea (Massis Baghdassarian and Jiraïr) (Mekerdoumian) having said at the time of the evidence that they had no necessary to prevent the authorities considered since they had not taken these words seriously.



    However, according to Kalaydjian have been reported to the security services National by someone who was not present at This meeting: Kerdéchian, Hovhannes living of Etchmiadzine. It is because of these words in this circle, and only to do this, that he is today imprisoned in his homeland.









    6 April 2009 Avedis Kalaydjian has therefore been stopped by national under security services the preparation for a murder charge. His wife Flora declares: "is this scenario against my husband." "fully fitted."



    The accusation towards Avédis Kalaydjian is the preparation of an assassination against players major policies (article 35-305 of the Penal Code), which provides a sentence ranging from 10 to 15 years ' imprisonment or the prison to life.



    On 20 July 2009, counsel of Avédis, master Artur Grigorian attempted when the last session of the Palace of Justice Nor Nork district of present a simplified the indictment procedure taking into account certain shortcomings in the investigation file.

    On 23 July, the trial has continued in closed since Kalaydjian had said He would make revelations relating to any Secrets report. Avédis Kalaydjian has since this hearing, applied for a stay of the camera that Ararad Bedrossian j. always refused to date. Since 6 April, it is engaged in a series of hearings that have to date complete any tangible result.



    27 October 2009, there will be a hearing for 14 th times. The Court should make its verdict and this without having heard witnesses cited by the defence of Avédis Kalaydjian.



    Due to the final hearing 20 October Avedis Kalaydjian began a hunger strike to protest against this conspiracy and alert the opinion about the injustice of its situation. It has since been transported in an individual cell the Sovedachen prison.



    With this written after all legal attempts in our power, we are calling to all our fellow citizens the diaspora and Armenia so intervene to his release.

    Save Avédis, let us be in its sides so that a Patriot family is destroyed.





    Support Committee

    On the Avédis Bashar Kalaydjian

    Leave a comment:


  • Catharsis
    replied
    Re: Armenia: the end of the debate?

    Originally posted by Jos View Post
    All good questions. Perhaps the article was designed to stir controversy by raising more questions than answers, I can't be sure. Nevertheless, I would definitely like to see this journalist justify why he has come to the conclusions reached. I just don't see the merit in character assassinating someone just becuase they have an opinion that differs from the existing dogma. Research, discussion, debate in all forms should be encouraged and not just dismissed because of snide remarks or established doctrines.
    Why has the complicit Turkish government consistently denied the Armenian Genocide? Denied the verdicts of complete and utter guilt in the implementation of pre-planned and systematically carried out genocide of the Armenian people? Why has the Turkish government denied the verdicts and declarations by The Association of Genocide Scholars, Permanent People's Tribunal, International Center for Transitional Justice (ICTJ), Le Ligue des Droits de l'Homme, The Elie Wiesel Foundation for Humanity, Human Rights Association of Turkey, European Parliament Resolutions, United Nations War Crimes Commission Report, International Court of Justice, United Nations General Assembly Resolutions and countless, countless more! Why are the Turkish people denied to know the truth?

    Leave a comment:


  • Diranakir
    replied
    Re: Armenia: the end of the debate?

    Jos and Bell Cat are studiously avoiding the very serious historical question
    I raise and prefer to concentrate on personal issues. Why are they avoiding confronting one simple fact? And Dyer is not supposed to raise questions; he is supposed to give answers. That is his billing. But with this article he on the contrary romanticizes his own history as a scholar while very offensively fabricating history. It is a travesty.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jos
    replied
    Re: Armenia: the end of the debate?

    Originally posted by Diranakir View Post
    Why does he not name one date, place or historic leader of the Armenian revolts he mentions? Yes, he is 'seemingly' independent. Well said. Is that good enough for you? It's not good enough for me; not good enough to justify his disseminating a blatant and cruel falsehood in his far flung media markets, namely that Syria was a salvation point for Armenian deportees, when in fact it was the place they were disposed of in the deserts of Der Zor like so much refuse. Despite his impressive resumé, all his perspicacity seems to vanish when it comes to the Armenians in 1915. Maybe you can explain that to me.
    All good questions. Perhaps the article was designed to stir controversy by raising more questions than answers, I can't be sure. Nevertheless, I would definitely like to see this journalist justify why he has come to the conclusions reached. I just don't see the merit in character assassinating someone just becuase they have an opinion that differs from the existing dogma. Research, discussion, debate in all forms should be encouraged and not just dismissed because of snide remarks or established doctrines.

    Leave a comment:


  • Eddo211
    replied
    Re: Armenia: the end of the debate?

    This bull crap article by Gwynne Dyer has caused nothing but trouble..................Turks are already using it against us and running it into the ground every chance they get. @$#%&

    Leave a comment:

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