Vive La France !!!!!

[Eddo211]

Re: Vive La France !!!!!

My thoughts too when I read about this this morning. Do they not have free speech rights? Apparently these kinds of laws have been passed before, so I guess not. How do you criminalize thought or belief or the expression thereof? How do you even begin to enforce something like this? *shrugs *

This law doean't effect people in the street expressing their believes on AG. It comes into effect if you are running a organization that promoted denial to the French public or say a representative paid by Turkey who makes a formal speech denying the AG.

Turks can run along Paris/chanselizez and scream there was no Genocide and nothing will happen to him/her other than be seen as a fool.

[Sip]

Re: Vive La France !!!!!

However if I make statements or write articles or give interviews etc. than I would be breaking the law.

No different than as an example I advocate rape as something natural (or normal) or paedophilia as something normal and desirable.

There is nothing new as far applying the law here.

Daft or not, I think you are more than free to proclaim what I said to be daft I will never try to pass a law that prevents you from saying so. But I do disagree. I don't think it is daft at all.

The big difference boils down to free speech. You seem to think "advocating" rape or paedophillia is a crime while I still maintain that only the action is crime. Talking about the action, drawing cartoons about the action, and "debating" the actions cannot be a crime.

I am not saying don't pass and repeatedly reaffirm resolutions and declarations (that have been done many many times in the past) that continue to reaffirm the truth regarding the Armenian Genocide. Those are all worthwhile efforts to define, clarify, and preserve historical truth. But the idea that opposing opinions are "criminals" just doesn't sit right with me. Now raping and pillaging and not being held responsible IS criminal. The fact that Turkey is systematically denying Genocide due to its fears of what it has to admit and pay up is criminal but not because of the act of the denial per se. It is more about justice.

You do something wrong, you get penalized. You break someone's window, you get to pay for it. But continuing to deny that you broke the window shouldn't matter when you have been proven of the wrong doing.

[londontsi]

Re: Vive La France !!!!!

.... Those are all worthwhile efforts to define, clarify, and preserve historical truth.

Then somehow you have no objection for the truth being undermined by saying

But the idea that opposing opinions are "criminals" just doesn't sit right with me.

Armenian Genocide is not a matter of opinion. It is a fact.

Those forces who are expressing “different opinions” are simply the efforts of the guilty party trying to counter the truth.

If truth was left to the mercy of a debate it should not take much soul-searching to realise that the side with the loader voice,
the one with more influence, the one with the more financial resources will dominate the the argument and eventually win.

Justice is not decided through a debate. It is decided by considering the facts.

Once the facts are established then the law should protect the truth.

Laws are made if it is deemed to be necessary .
The sad truth is that Turkey through its well known approaches has been working on distorting the truth.

Therefore having stated the truth (through a law ) you need yet another law to protect this ( law) truth.

[hrai]

Re: Vive La France !!!!!

My thoughts too when I read about this this morning. Do they not have free speech rights? Apparently these kinds of laws have been passed before, so I guess not. How do you criminalize thought or belief or the expression thereof? How do you even begin to enforce something like this? *shrugs *

Siggie, very interesting that a Forum Moderator takes this view, can we assume that you will not delete posts, ban members for expressing their thoughts and beliefs here?

[londontsi]

Re: Vive La France !!!!!

The big difference boils down to free speech.
You seem to think "advocating" rape or paedophillia is a crime while I still maintain that only the action is crime.
Talking about the action, drawing cartoons about the action, and "debating" the actions cannot be a crime.

This is not true.

Most paedophiles are caught and prosecuted ( successfully) simply by having downloaded such pictures from the internet.
This in true universally not only in the UK.

Very rarely they are caught in the act.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Vive La France !!!!!

My thoughts too when I read about this this morning. Do they not have free speech rights? Apparently these kinds of laws have been passed before, so I guess not. How do you criminalize thought or belief or the expression thereof? How do you even begin to enforce something like this? *shrugs *

France is not really a democracy in any modern sense: it is an authoritarian, centralist dictatorship run by political elites (elites that are the equivalent of Turkey's "deep state"). Perhaps that is why the country that has most inspired Turkey in its attempts at social control has been France. Centuries before Turkey founded its "Tongue Institute" to eliminate all Arabic, Persian, Greek, and Armenian words from everyday Turkish conversation, to invent new "Turkish" to replace them, and to produce dictionaries that contain only officially approved words, France had its Académie Française that did (and still does) exactly the same thing with the French language. And of course this new proposed French thought crime law parallels the various equivalent "insulting Turkishness" laws in Turkey.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Vive La France !!!!!

Siggie, very interesting that a Forum Moderator takes this view, can we assume that you will not delete posts, ban members for expressing their thoughts and beliefs here?

Why do you seem to think the above would not happen?

I'd just ban members who have overly bombastic screen names or tag lines. They are mostly little mice who think they can roar like a lion just because they have placed a sign around their necks saying "lion".

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Vive La France !!!!!

Armenian Genocide is not a matter of opinion. It is a fact.

Tell me, oh wise and wonderful one, oh expert on all things factual, is it going to be a "fact" (defended by the weight of French law) that three million died, and thus a criminal offense to say that only 2.5 million died, and a veritable hanging offense to state, even with full accompanying argument and population figures, that it was actually closer to two million?

[londontsi]

Re: Vive La France !!!!!

France is not really a democracy in any modern sense: it is an authoritarian, centralist dictatorship run by political elites (elites that are the equivalent of Turkey's "deep state").

Oh really, the vote was taken in the lower house.
It may be lower but deep it is not.

Perhaps that is why the country that has most inspired Turkey in its attempts at social control has been France.

I always wondered why France and Turkey were so similar.
Now I have found the answer.

Centuries before Turkey founded its "Tongue Institute" to eliminate all Arabic, Persian, Greek, and Armenian words from everyday Turkish conversation, to invent new "Turkish" to replace them, and to produce dictionaries that contain only officially approved words, France had its Académie Française that did (and still does) exactly the same thing with the French language.

Surprise surprise nothing found on your beloved Turkish and its "Tongue Institute".

And of course this new proposed French thought crime law parallels the various equivalent "insulting Turkishness" laws in Turkey.

If you read the previous posting you would have realised that this is not a thought crime.
But then that would have put two much demand on your prejudiced mind driven by your two brain cells.


Siggie I think it likes you.

I have to give you one warning though ( no I am not jealous),
although it is a cat you have to watch its rear as it produces disproportionate output.
I think in the scientific world its called bull-sh.it.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Vive La France !!!!!

Tell me, oh wise and wonderful one, oh expert on all things factual, is it going to be a "fact" (defended by the weight of French law) that three million died, and thus a criminal offense to say that only 2.5 million died, and a veritable hanging offense to state, even with full accompanying argument and population figures, that it was actually closer to two million?

As I had (of course) assumed, the "oh wise and wonderful one" was neither wise or wonderful and has thus declined to answer my question. What particular version of the "Armenian genocide" does he want protected by French law? What version is his orthodoxy, his divine truth, and what versions are sinful heresies whose holders are to be criminalised if they dare to mention them in public or even debate them in an academic situation?